Now that George has been forced to accept the...
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Bob_Bytchin
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Think about it pp...the US really needed the French to sign on. We let them save face by appearing to have a "French" victory over the US in the UN. What it actually did, was to give more validity to the UN. If the US had done it otherwise, then the UN would have lost its validity and power.
Let the French applaud themselves all they want. In the end, they will be signing on with the US. Leaving only Russia and China to abstain in a security council vote.
Let the French applaud themselves all they want. In the end, they will be signing on with the US. Leaving only Russia and China to abstain in a security council vote.
p_p_man
The 'Euro' European
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Bob_Bytchin said:
Now that really is twisted American logic...
'We know that we have no allies in our plan to obliterate Iraq. So every time we're forced into a change of tactics we'll pretend that we wanted to do that all along...'
C'mon, George is on a beating to nothing over his maniacal plan for world domination. I reckon that after a while he'll realise just how impossible his self imposed task is and just give up...
He won't say that though, we'll probably be told there's a new threat he's got to combat coming from Mars or the furthest reaches of outer space...
At least he'd be able to keep that story going for as long as he likes...
ppman
ppman
Bob_Bytchin
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p_p_man said:
Believe what you want...I guess the truth eludes you.
Bob_Bytchin
Lit Class of '02
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p_p_man said:The truth usually alludes to me...
ppman
No, the word you were searching for is delude.
Bob_Bytchin
Lit Class of '02
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Or did you mean dilute?
G
Guest
Guest
p_p_man said:
In a word.......'NO'.
G
Guest
Guest
bored1 said:Fuck the French
Maybe we should french the fuck instead.
Or maybe not.
Lost Cause
It's a wrap!
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It's the height of intelligence..........
To consider all angles, facts, and other considerations like the President is doing. To blindly charge a changing environment is right out of the British military manual. You'll still find fault with Dubya even if he scrubbed the operation, and tried alternate methods.
The "fatcats" as your type labels successful people (envy), do not want a no win scenario in the terrorist theatres worldwide, as most have business dealings with the other counties. (you don't burn down your own bank-only in LA) Additionally, the "fatcats" also don't want a high bodycount as they need consumers for their products.
There are other ways to win:
President Bush has authorized U.S. combat training for Iraqi opponents of Saddam Hussein, and the Pentagon has identified as many as 5,000 recruits for an initial training phase to begin next month, according to administration and military officials.
Bush authorized the training in a National Security Presidential Directive on Oct. 3 that also approved the expenditure of $92 million in Defense Department funds, officials said. Defense and State Department officials intend to brief Congress next week on plans to instruct the Iraqis in basic combat as well as specialized skills to serve as battlefield advisers, scouts and interpreters with U.S. ground troops in an invasion force.
Others in a force eventually to number about 10,000 will be trained as forward spotters for laser-guided bombs and as military police to run prisoner of war camps inside Iraq. Officials said the recruits, drawn largely from lists of exiles in the Iraqi diaspora that are being provided by the London-based Iraqi National Congress (INC) and vetted by the Pentagon, would be trained together outside the United States. Military officials declined to say where the instruction would take place, but said it would not be in the Middle East region.
Bush's decision marks another major step forward in preparation for a U.S. military assault on Iraq. In recent weeks, the Pentagon has built up equipment stocks in Persian Gulf states, begun dispatching additional combat troops, issued orders to move headquarters units into place and made preparations to facilitate the deployment of tens of thousands of troops should Bush decide to attack. This week, an Army task force of Apache helicopters left Europe for Kuwait.
The Pentagon began serious consideration of an opposition training plan early last month. But long-standing uncertainty about the abilities and cohesion of the often-bickering exile groups had limited discussions to an initial phase of only about 1,000 recruits and a far smaller amount of money.
Bush's new directive appears to have ended that uncertainty. "It's a big deal," said a senior administration official.
Although $97 million for opposition training was first authorized in 1998 under the Iraq Liberation Act, a directive signed that year by then-President Bill Clinton restricted expenditures to nonlethal instruction. Until he signed the new directive early this month, Bush had adhered to Clinton's prohibitions, and only $5 million of the original money was spent, largely on communications and management training for a handful of exiles. The funds will now be spent on both training and arming the Iraqis to serve in specialized capacities alongside U.S. troops
Congress was notified of Bush's determination to draw down all of the remaining money on Oct. 11, as required under the act, but not of the new directive authorizing lethal training.
The Liberation Act and the Clinton directive both stated "regime change" as the goal of U.S. policy in Iraq. But they spoke only of providing assistance to opposition efforts to overthrow Hussein, and the law specifically barred the direct use of U.S. military forces. Although Bush vowed during the presidential campaign that he would "fully implement" the law, he retained the Clinton ban on lethal assistance to the exile groups, angering many members of Congress who urged more aggressive support for the exiles.
As it has built political momentum toward attacking Iraq, the administration has said its immediate goal is to disarm Iraq by finding and destroying its chemical and biological weapons production facilities and stockpiles. But Bush, Vice President Cheney and others have made clear they believe that the threat from Iraq will end only when Hussein is replaced by a new government.
The administration is in the final stages of negotiating a toughly worded United Nations resolution to authorize new U.N. weapons inspections in Iraq and threaten "serious consequences" if Baghdad fails to cooperate. The administration has said it expects the world to join in a multilateral force, if Iraqi defiance makes that necessary, but that it is willing to act alone. Last week, Congress passed a joint resolution authorizing Bush to launch a unilateral military attack that the administration has said Hussein would not survive.
The administration's eagerness to spell out a role for the Iraqi opposition, and congressional pressure to outline its plans for a post-Hussein Iraq, have been hampered through much of this year by disorganization among the exile groups. But although some opposition improvements, and the imminence of possible military action, have forced Bush's hand, the training plan has already exacerbated problems among the exile groups.
Opponents of the plan say it is a barely disguised effort to create a power base for Iraqi National Congress head Ahmed Chalabi. The INC is one of six groups officially designated by Washington as eligible for funds, although last week's notice to Congress on the $92 million funding said "other Iraqi opposition groups" may be named.
Although the State Department and Pentagon say they didn't plan it this way, the recruitment program has been largely in INC hands, a situation that pleases Chalabi supporters but that has outraged other groups. "The 5,000 or 6,000 names for the Pentagon are Chalabi's to give," according to an INC official in Europe.
Much of the dispute among the groups is centered on the relative closeness of their leaders to various parts of the administration, and on their various claims of the depth of their support inside Iraq. Although distrusted by the State Department and the CIA, Chalabi is popular at the Pentagon.
"Things are blowing Chalabi's way. He is backed by the Pentagon, so he is in the best shape he has been for a long time, and this is angering rivals," said one long-time observer of opposition maneuverings.
"The INC is toying with making a Praetorian Guard for Chalabi, because he has no following inside Iraq. I don't think this kind of thing should be imposed," said Salah Shaikhly, representative of the Iraqi National Accord, another of the six designated organizations. Although the INC has said it sought recruits among all committed Iraqis outside the country, and those inside who could make their way beyond Iraq's borders, Shaikhly said the other groups feel excluded.
Rivalries over who contributes to the Pentagon recruitment effort constitute just one symptom of continuing disarray among opposition organizations, much of which has centered around efforts to designate a provisional government in advance of Hussein's anticipated ouster -- an idea the administration has discouraged. Plans for a conference to choose a unified leadership fell apart in September, and the gathering has now been put off until at least November.
To a certain extent, the bumps in the road reflect old divisions among fractious Iraqi politicians, some of whom have been out of the country for decades. Uncertainty on just how Hussein will fall and who might emerge as power brokers inside Iraq also cloud preparation efforts. Some Iraqi leaders say they are reluctant to choose an exile government for fear of offending Iraqis inside the country who may be weighing a mutiny against Hussein, something that is being advocated by U.S. officials.
The difficulties of the U.S.-backed government in Afghanistan in extending its influence beyond Kabul are regarded as a cautionary tale for a post-Hussein Iraq. Five of the six designated groups are key to the current squabbling: the INC, an amalgam of parties; the Iraqi National Accord, an organization traditionally linked with the CIA and fashioned to represent Iraq's large Shiite Muslim population; the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan and the Kurdistan Democratic Party, which administer parts of northern Iraq under the protective umbrella of U.S. and British warplanes; and the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq, another Shiite group whose leadership is based in Iran. *Washington Post-today
Cheers!
To consider all angles, facts, and other considerations like the President is doing. To blindly charge a changing environment is right out of the British military manual. You'll still find fault with Dubya even if he scrubbed the operation, and tried alternate methods.
The "fatcats" as your type labels successful people (envy), do not want a no win scenario in the terrorist theatres worldwide, as most have business dealings with the other counties. (you don't burn down your own bank-only in LA) Additionally, the "fatcats" also don't want a high bodycount as they need consumers for their products.
There are other ways to win:
President Bush has authorized U.S. combat training for Iraqi opponents of Saddam Hussein, and the Pentagon has identified as many as 5,000 recruits for an initial training phase to begin next month, according to administration and military officials.
Bush authorized the training in a National Security Presidential Directive on Oct. 3 that also approved the expenditure of $92 million in Defense Department funds, officials said. Defense and State Department officials intend to brief Congress next week on plans to instruct the Iraqis in basic combat as well as specialized skills to serve as battlefield advisers, scouts and interpreters with U.S. ground troops in an invasion force.
Others in a force eventually to number about 10,000 will be trained as forward spotters for laser-guided bombs and as military police to run prisoner of war camps inside Iraq. Officials said the recruits, drawn largely from lists of exiles in the Iraqi diaspora that are being provided by the London-based Iraqi National Congress (INC) and vetted by the Pentagon, would be trained together outside the United States. Military officials declined to say where the instruction would take place, but said it would not be in the Middle East region.
Bush's decision marks another major step forward in preparation for a U.S. military assault on Iraq. In recent weeks, the Pentagon has built up equipment stocks in Persian Gulf states, begun dispatching additional combat troops, issued orders to move headquarters units into place and made preparations to facilitate the deployment of tens of thousands of troops should Bush decide to attack. This week, an Army task force of Apache helicopters left Europe for Kuwait.
The Pentagon began serious consideration of an opposition training plan early last month. But long-standing uncertainty about the abilities and cohesion of the often-bickering exile groups had limited discussions to an initial phase of only about 1,000 recruits and a far smaller amount of money.
Bush's new directive appears to have ended that uncertainty. "It's a big deal," said a senior administration official.
Although $97 million for opposition training was first authorized in 1998 under the Iraq Liberation Act, a directive signed that year by then-President Bill Clinton restricted expenditures to nonlethal instruction. Until he signed the new directive early this month, Bush had adhered to Clinton's prohibitions, and only $5 million of the original money was spent, largely on communications and management training for a handful of exiles. The funds will now be spent on both training and arming the Iraqis to serve in specialized capacities alongside U.S. troops
Congress was notified of Bush's determination to draw down all of the remaining money on Oct. 11, as required under the act, but not of the new directive authorizing lethal training.
The Liberation Act and the Clinton directive both stated "regime change" as the goal of U.S. policy in Iraq. But they spoke only of providing assistance to opposition efforts to overthrow Hussein, and the law specifically barred the direct use of U.S. military forces. Although Bush vowed during the presidential campaign that he would "fully implement" the law, he retained the Clinton ban on lethal assistance to the exile groups, angering many members of Congress who urged more aggressive support for the exiles.
As it has built political momentum toward attacking Iraq, the administration has said its immediate goal is to disarm Iraq by finding and destroying its chemical and biological weapons production facilities and stockpiles. But Bush, Vice President Cheney and others have made clear they believe that the threat from Iraq will end only when Hussein is replaced by a new government.
The administration is in the final stages of negotiating a toughly worded United Nations resolution to authorize new U.N. weapons inspections in Iraq and threaten "serious consequences" if Baghdad fails to cooperate. The administration has said it expects the world to join in a multilateral force, if Iraqi defiance makes that necessary, but that it is willing to act alone. Last week, Congress passed a joint resolution authorizing Bush to launch a unilateral military attack that the administration has said Hussein would not survive.
The administration's eagerness to spell out a role for the Iraqi opposition, and congressional pressure to outline its plans for a post-Hussein Iraq, have been hampered through much of this year by disorganization among the exile groups. But although some opposition improvements, and the imminence of possible military action, have forced Bush's hand, the training plan has already exacerbated problems among the exile groups.
Opponents of the plan say it is a barely disguised effort to create a power base for Iraqi National Congress head Ahmed Chalabi. The INC is one of six groups officially designated by Washington as eligible for funds, although last week's notice to Congress on the $92 million funding said "other Iraqi opposition groups" may be named.
Although the State Department and Pentagon say they didn't plan it this way, the recruitment program has been largely in INC hands, a situation that pleases Chalabi supporters but that has outraged other groups. "The 5,000 or 6,000 names for the Pentagon are Chalabi's to give," according to an INC official in Europe.
Much of the dispute among the groups is centered on the relative closeness of their leaders to various parts of the administration, and on their various claims of the depth of their support inside Iraq. Although distrusted by the State Department and the CIA, Chalabi is popular at the Pentagon.
"Things are blowing Chalabi's way. He is backed by the Pentagon, so he is in the best shape he has been for a long time, and this is angering rivals," said one long-time observer of opposition maneuverings.
"The INC is toying with making a Praetorian Guard for Chalabi, because he has no following inside Iraq. I don't think this kind of thing should be imposed," said Salah Shaikhly, representative of the Iraqi National Accord, another of the six designated organizations. Although the INC has said it sought recruits among all committed Iraqis outside the country, and those inside who could make their way beyond Iraq's borders, Shaikhly said the other groups feel excluded.
Rivalries over who contributes to the Pentagon recruitment effort constitute just one symptom of continuing disarray among opposition organizations, much of which has centered around efforts to designate a provisional government in advance of Hussein's anticipated ouster -- an idea the administration has discouraged. Plans for a conference to choose a unified leadership fell apart in September, and the gathering has now been put off until at least November.
To a certain extent, the bumps in the road reflect old divisions among fractious Iraqi politicians, some of whom have been out of the country for decades. Uncertainty on just how Hussein will fall and who might emerge as power brokers inside Iraq also cloud preparation efforts. Some Iraqi leaders say they are reluctant to choose an exile government for fear of offending Iraqis inside the country who may be weighing a mutiny against Hussein, something that is being advocated by U.S. officials.
The difficulties of the U.S.-backed government in Afghanistan in extending its influence beyond Kabul are regarded as a cautionary tale for a post-Hussein Iraq. Five of the six designated groups are key to the current squabbling: the INC, an amalgam of parties; the Iraqi National Accord, an organization traditionally linked with the CIA and fashioned to represent Iraq's large Shiite Muslim population; the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan and the Kurdistan Democratic Party, which administer parts of northern Iraq under the protective umbrella of U.S. and British warplanes; and the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq, another Shiite group whose leadership is based in Iran. *Washington Post-today
Cheers!
SINthysist
Rural Racist Homophobe
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RLMAO
I am serious. The US is still insisting on phrases that could provide a legal basis for American military action if other veto-bearing Council members, after seeing the results of weapons inspections in Iraq, still do not agree that it is warranted.
They are making more ambiguous language that would still allow the US to essentially unilaterally attack Iraq.
They are making more ambiguous language that would still allow the US to essentially unilaterally attack Iraq.
SINthysist
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Bush is just dicking around and playing mind games with Saddam until the final strategy is ready for execution.
And I'm serious.
That's what makes the French efforts so laughable...
And I'm serious.
That's what makes the French efforts so laughable...
SINthysist
Rural Racist Homophobe
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He's also fawking with the Dems, stealing their thunder, forcing the nationalization of local issues...
Rove's on a roll...
Not that Bush could come up with ANY of this on his own!
Rove's on a roll...
Not that Bush could come up with ANY of this on his own!
p_p_man
The 'Euro' European
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Re: It's the height of intelligence..........
Don't forget this is a man who says 'no negotiation' and 'watch my lips'.
To think of him as a man who considers all possible angles is taking the realms of reason a little bit too far.
George is a weak man. He is easily swayed by events. He has no pre-determined plan about anything...
He prefers to see what happens and then do his best to countermand it....
Not the sign of a leader...
ppman
Lost Cause said:
Don't forget this is a man who says 'no negotiation' and 'watch my lips'.
To think of him as a man who considers all possible angles is taking the realms of reason a little bit too far.
George is a weak man. He is easily swayed by events. He has no pre-determined plan about anything...
He prefers to see what happens and then do his best to countermand it....
Not the sign of a leader...
ppman
SINthysist
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And the goal of Russia is Regime stability for the twofold reason:
1. They are making money hand over fist and have a lot invested in the tyrant.
2. They need the instability Saddam brings to the region so they can shut down competing oil suppliers and pipelines.
1. They are making money hand over fist and have a lot invested in the tyrant.
2. They need the instability Saddam brings to the region so they can shut down competing oil suppliers and pipelines.
android1966
Scribbler of Smut.
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My apologies for moving off of topic, but two small articles buried inside wednesdays paper caught my eye.
1. The British army have opened a new basic training centre. A spokesman for the MOD said the new "boot camp" was necessary due to a large surge in volunteers enlisting in the army. Recruitment has leapt 12% this year and 23% since 2000.
2. The MOD confirmed that 234 challenger main battle tanks were currently being refitted with improved desert fighting equipment.
1. The British army have opened a new basic training centre. A spokesman for the MOD said the new "boot camp" was necessary due to a large surge in volunteers enlisting in the army. Recruitment has leapt 12% this year and 23% since 2000.
2. The MOD confirmed that 234 challenger main battle tanks were currently being refitted with improved desert fighting equipment.
