Novelist's Empathy

[Cruel2BKind]

Duct tape, you forgot duct tape. You need the tape to tie the world up once you capture it.

I wrap my head with it before I read CRUELLA's posts. Saves lots time searching for pieces after my head explodes.

Love you too, JB

It's true; like wolves, we humans need our clearly defined roles. Like wolves, we respond only to strength, to a society based upon savagery and domination, where males, powerful hunters and great snap-jawed kings, rule over less worthy specimens, who, cowed by the very existence of such divine Fenris-like gods, live only to serve, to limp along, mouths agape, waiting for scraps. And the females, the strongest shall distinguish themselves from the pack, and they, by virtue of their beauty and breeding prowess shall be granted a place as a subservient queens to the great wolf-god-kings--high above the others, lording over weaker bitches, but still beneath the rippling ferocity of her mate.

Yes, we truly are like wolves, beasts of lust and power, the lot of us.

Wait...so you're telling me they were totally wrong about the whole alpha wolf thing? It's really more just like a family, where everyone pitches in and the ones who seem in charge are actually the parents just acting like...parents? Wait, wait, the guy debunking this myth is actually the SAME guy that came up with it? Shit. Well, aren't a lot of our theories about alpha behavior kind of based on wolves and dogs and shit? Yeah, I mean, if we were way off on that stuff, God, what else could we be way off on? Hold on, I'm still an alpha, right? I mean, look at me, I'm badass. Do you know what my rank is in Call of Duty? I have like every achievement. I mean, how alpha is that?

I feel kind of weird, like, vulnerable, almost as if I'm not any different from any other man, that I'm not innately superior by some grand design. Oh, I don't like this. I don't like this at all. Kind of feels icky. What if I have to be judged on my personality or my accomplishments or something instead of my own natural intuition about my predestined place in human society? Oh God, oh God, here comes my asthma. Breathe. Breathe....

Never mind. I one-bombed someone and left a snarky comment. *exhales* No, I'm definitely an alpha. Whew! I was worried for a second. Thought maybe I was going to have to learn to speak to people with respect. But that shit's for pussies. I'm good now.

So, what were we talking about, fag?

You win my slice of the internet.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

It's true; like wolves, we humans need our clearly defined roles. Like wolves, we respond only to strength, to a society based upon savagery and domination, where males, powerful hunters and great snap-jawed kings, rule over less worthy specimens, who, cowed by the very existence of such divine Fenris-like gods, live only to serve, to limp along, mouths agape, waiting for scraps. And the females, the strongest shall distinguish themselves from the pack, they, by virtue of their beauty and breeding prowess shall be granted places as subservient queens to the great wolf-god-kings--high above the others, lording over weaker bitches, but still beneath the rippling ferocity of her mate.

Yes, we truly are like wolves, beasts of lust and power, the lot of us.

Wait...so you're telling me they were totally wrong about the whole alpha wolf thing? It's really more just like a family, where everyone pitches in and the ones who seem in charge are actually the parents just acting like...parents? Wait, wait, the guy debunking this myth is actually the SAME guy that came up with it? Shit. Well, aren't a lot of our theories about alpha behavior kind of based on wolves and dogs and shit? Yeah, I mean, if we were way off on that stuff, God, what else could we be way off on? Hold on, I'm still an alpha, right? I mean, look at me, I'm badass. Do you know what my rank is in Call of Duty? I have like every achievement. I mean, how alpha is that?

I feel kind of weird, like, vulnerable, almost as if I'm not any different from any other man, that I'm not innately superior by some grand design. Oh, I don't like this. I don't like this at all. Kind of feels icky. What if I have to be judged on my personality or my accomplishments or something instead of my own natural intuition about my predestined place in human society? Oh God, oh God, here comes my asthma. Breathe. Breathe....

Never mind. I one-bombed someone and left a snarky comment. *exhales* No, I'm definitely an alpha. Whew! I was worried for a second. Thought maybe I was going to have to learn to speak to people with respect. But that shit's for pussies. I'm good now.

So, what were we talking about, fag?

Youre beta.

 

[TxRad]

Youre beta.

And you're old and out of touch with reality. You believe what you want to believe no matter what has been proven. Closed minds never learn. They observe and take from it what they want no matter what the real truth is.

 

[AMoveableBeast]

Youre beta.

Oh, come now, JBJ. I'm VHS, at least.

Can't we put this ugly business about alphas and betas behind us and find common ground in our shared hatred of minorities, listening to other people's opinions, and young kids getting on our lawns?

 

[stickygirl]

Oh, come now, JBJ. I'm VHS, at least.

Can't we put this ugly business about alphas and betas behind us and find common ground in our shared hatred of minorities, listening to other people's opinions, and young kids getting on our lawns?

Don't you dare stop now - I'm waiting to see which one of you turns out to be the Alpha, side with him but fuck the betas behind his back
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-BjgenX5Nf9c/UnZzb-Q5z2I/AAAAAAAAiO4/P_58JOupn0Y/s1600/boy+peeing.jpg

 

[AMoveableBeast]

Don't you dare stop now - I'm waiting to see which one of you turns out to be the Alpha, side with him but fuck the betas behind his back
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-BjgenX5Nf9c/UnZzb-Q5z2I/AAAAAAAAiO4/P_58JOupn0Y/s1600/boy+peeing.jpg

I'm fairly certain that Demi Moore had this same strategy with Ashton Kutcher and Bruce Willis.

 

[TxRad]

I'm fairly certain that Demi Moore had this same strategy with Ashton Kutcher and Bruce Willis.

That worked out well, didn't it.

 

[3113]

why do women in novels occasionally feel "a rush of tenderness toward [ their man ], seeing his failings and weakness in place of his overbearing nature; seeing the frightened little boy…"
I don't remember having read about a man expressing the same about a woman

Well, first, I'd say you're not reading very good stuff. Second, I'd say: consider the audience. And third, remember that most of this isn't just fiction, but fantasy. In the first instance, as said, there are stereotypes and lazy writers tend to use them because the audience is already familiar with such and expects such. Rather like people go to a fast food place to get the same quick junk food over and over again. It certainly saves the writer work and guarantees them not only readers, but satisfied readers. So, that's why you keep seeing it.

In the second instance, I presume those books/stories were for women. If these ladies, as suggested, are constantly faced with men working on cars and wanting blow-jobs...well, it might be hard for said ladies to see a reason to remain with said men. This gives them hope of something more. Granted, it's probably false hope, but it's human nature to love magical thinking. Again, this sells books.

Last, of course, is that we're talking fantasies And here is where the answer to your question comes in. This is a female fantasy. The male fantasy isn't the same. A man doesn't want his fictional fantasy woman to become a little girl (unless she's a naughty little girl in a school uniform with a very short skirt). He wants her to become the sexy woman in the porn that he jacked off to when he was a kid. Men don't want to read about a female character's emotional state; they want to read about how she looks and how willing she is to give blow jobs. That's THEIR fantasy.

 

[AMoveableBeast]

Well, first, I'd say you're not reading very good stuff. Second, I'd say: consider the audience. And third, remember that most of this isn't just fiction, but fantasy. In the first instance, as said, there are stereotypes and lazy writers tend to use them because the audience is already familiar with such and expects such. Rather like people go to a fast food place to get the same quick junk food over and over again. It certainly saves the writer work and guarantees them not only readers, but satisfied readers. So, that's why you keep seeing it.

In the second instance, I presume those books/stories were for women. If these ladies, as suggested, are constantly faced with men working on cars and wanting blow-jobs...well, it might be hard for said ladies to see a reason to remain with said men. This gives them hope of something more. Granted, it's probably false hope, but it's human nature to love magical thinking. Again, this sells books.

Last, of course, is that we're talking fantasies And here is where the answer to your question comes in. This is a female fantasy. The male fantasy isn't the same. A man doesn't want his fictional fantasy woman to become a little girl (unless she's a naughty little girl in a school uniform with a very short skirt). He wants her to become the sexy woman in the porn that he jacked off to when he was a kid. Men don't want to read about a female character's emotional state; they want to read about how she looks and how willing she is to give blow jobs. That's THEIR fantasy.

I think this is an excellent reply, but I don't agree that men don't ever see the little girl in a woman and become charmed by it.

I dated a woman once, a lawyer, who was the definition of a powerful, capable woman. She was a goddess in a suit, built for beauty and blessed with brains.

She had a case, a nasty one, unwinnable a lot of people thought, that she worked at tirelessly at one point in our relationship. Late into the night, she'd be researching, writing down notes, making various plans and mapping out erudite strategies. In the morning, she'd be up, running on only a few hours of sleep, her hair in an artful little bun, her suit immaculately pressed. Still not content with the effort she'd put in, she'd work over breakfast. We'd sneak kisses over old case studies and squeeze in laughs between all too frequent phone calls of great importance.

This went on for months. It was trying, lonely at times, but I was proud of her. More than that, I was in awe of her. She was a gorgeous little law cyborg, an unstoppable machine programmed to operate at all times as an efficient professional. I was unsure that if put in the same position, I would have had the resolve.

When she eventually won the case, which I had all the faith that she would, I came home early from my job to surprise her with flowers, only to find her on the coach wearing only an undershirt and panties--the remnants of her suit strewn about the room as if she'd been attacked by a tiger--eating a huge bowl of Cinnamon Toast Crunch and watching cartoons.

When she finally noticed me standing in the door way (it took a bit, that Road-Runner was proving really hard to catch and she seemed quite invested), she--this woman who had been, for months, the picture of determination and tenacity--looked up and gave me this sheepish little grin and turned red, and looked, for all the world, like a seven year-old who had been caught skipping school to stay home and goof-off.

She had never looked more human, or more beautiful. We spent the next hour making love and giggling while Looney Tunes played in the background--not the most romantic soundtrack ever, but it worked for us in the moment. I don't like little girls, and am not overly fond of barely-legal erotica, but I do like truth. And the truth is, we are, all of us, regardless of age, little kids playing at being grown-ups, at least a good portion of the time.

Knowing someone as they truly are is always sexy.

 

[SecondCircle]

What was that movie?

"The perfect combination of sexy and cute."

 

[DirtyAllie]

Maybe its as simple as the woman looking at her man and trying to envision him as being something other than an utter asshole.

Most men envision their women.....naked on their knees and don't think much past that. Men are simpler creatures they look at what's in front of them and don't feel the need to look for more or question things.

And in response to the post about waiting to see who turns out to be the alpha male here?

That was the best laugh I had all day. The alpha male exists only in the minds of beta men.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I don't know if this question has been asked before, so forgive me if I'm out of step, but why do women in novels occasionally feel "a rush of tenderness toward [ their man ], seeing his failings and weakness in place of his overbearing nature; seeing the frightened little boy…"
I don't remember having read about a man expressing the same about a woman and that struck me as being odd. If my observation is broadly correct, what does that say about perceptions / preconceptions people have about such empathy between the sexes? Do men ever see 'the small girl' or are we to suppose that only novelists imagine it is women who are inclined to look for that?

I wonder if part of this is because of the different expectations placed on men and women. Generalising heavily: men are expected to grow up big and tough and do their best to conceal that "frightened little boy", so for a woman to be able to look through and see it is a big emotional moment, like catching somebody naked.

Women aren't expected to do the same sort of distancing - indeed there are a lot of pressures to trivialise and infantilise adult women - so "seeing the small girl" doesn't have the same sort of weight, maybe?

Put another way: it's unremarkable when the heroine sprains her ankle, it's a big thing when Chuck Norris sprains his, and that extends to emotional stuff.

Some BDSM-ish erotica does go there, sort of: Gor, 50SoG etc thrive on "independent-minded woman discovers the joys of submission to a Real Man just like evolution intended". But in order to make it an Important Moment they need to go a lot further than just emotional vulnerability and into sexual stuff that Nice Girls Don't Do. (Or at least, don't allow themselves to enjoy.)

 

[AMoveableBeast]

Anyone that thinks I was proliferating the idea of the alpha male, or offering myself up as one, doesn't read gud.

 

[stickygirl]

Well, first, I'd say you're not reading very good stuff. Second, I'd say: consider the audience. And third, remember that most of this isn't just fiction, but fantasy. ....

Thanks - I'd agree with you if I were referring to purely fantasy writing or even pulp fiction, but that stuff makes me retch. The Hours is a fairly decent piece of writing and explores the lives of three women, and in a narrative style, lets their thoughts flit to and fro in a natural way on the page. It is within that format the reader learns how those characters perceive the people in their lives and, as I mentioned, how they regard the men in their lives in particular.
Some of the other posters concur, as you have done, that the stereotypes portrayed in literature mirror the truisms we observe between the sexes in real life. Women are not much interested in how a car works but where it can take her, or not how many times her lover can screw her in one night but how that changes how she feels about him.
This might sound horribly patronising but I think the author in this case, Michael Cunningham, has done a wonderful job of understanding the female perspective, but he is not unique in that: Thomas Hardy didn't do a bad job either.
But yes - books generally do fulfill fantasies and reinforce stereotypes, but some do it with style!

Thanks for all the posts. You guys crack me up

 

[DirtyAllie]

Anyone that thinks I was proliferating the idea of the alpha male, or offering myself up as one, doesn't read gud.

Oh, I wasn't talking about you. I was thinking of the two old timers getting their hair up and trading off with their witty banter.

And to clarify about women not wanting to see their men as nothing but assholes I am speaking on the topic at hand of cliched literature.

The endless "Oh I am so attracted to this bad boy! He's strong, he's decisive, he's....trouble! Hmmm....but oh, was that a tear in his eye when that little dog died in that movie?

Oh, it was! Yes! he is sensitive! He is just a sweet little boy under all that hard muscle and bad attitude! Yes, oh, honey come to mama and let me hold you.

Sad, but that's not far off base from some of the crappy romance stuff I've endured.

 

[AMoveableBeast]

Oh, I wasn't talking about you. I was thinking of the two old timers getting their hair up and trading off with their witty banter.

And to clarify about women not wanting to see their men as nothing but assholes I am speaking on the topic at hand of cliched literature.

The endless "Oh I am so attracted to this bad boy! He's strong, he's decisive, he's....trouble! Hmmm....but oh, was that a tear in his eye when that little dog died in that movie?

Oh, it was! Yes! he is sensitive! He is just a sweet little boy under all that hard muscle and bad attitude! Yes, oh, honey come to mama and let me hold you.

Sad, but that's not far off base from some of the crappy romance stuff I've endured.

I've found that the "redeemed bad-boy" pretty much IS the romantic ideal for men, with very little deviation.

 

[3113]

When she finally noticed me standing in the door way (it took a bit, that Road-Runner was proving really hard to catch and she seemed quite invested), she--this woman who had been, for months, the picture of determination and tenacity--looked up and gave me this sheepish little grin and turned red, and looked, for all the world, like a seven year-old who had been caught skipping school to stay home and goof-off.

Awesome story. However, the book quote wasn't "there's a kid who likes toy cars under that tough, CEO exterior..." it was, "frightened little boy," weakness, failings.

What you described WASN'T a woman showing her weakness, failings or fear. And maybe there's the answer.

In books for male readers, I think it's taken for granted that women characters will show their fear, vulnerability, weakness--unless specified otherwise, as in the tough female CEO. So when the protagonist's object of desire shows these things, well, big deal, right? (I'm reminded here of the old Star Trek where it seemed every female character on the ship said "I'm frightened, Captain!" And everyone was like "what else is new, female character..." ) No need to tell male readers what the male character is feeling. It's obvious. Like when guys take girls to a horror movie and the lady holds tight to them for fear. Why should the guy be at all amazed at this? Or feel anything other than, "Score! She's in my lap"?

But if a book is for women readers, the assumption is that the male characters are not going to show their vulnerabilities and weaknesses. So when they do, it's a big "reveal" moment to the women. A surprise, something that moves them to see the guy in a different light.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I think this is an excellent reply, but I don't agree that men don't ever see the little girl in a woman and become charmed by it.

I dated a woman once, a lawyer, who was the definition of a powerful, capable woman. She was a goddess in a suit, built for beauty and blessed with brains.

She had a case, a nasty one, unwinnable a lot of people thought, that she worked at tirelessly at one point in our relationship. Late into the night, she'd be researching, writing down notes, making various plans and mapping out erudite strategies. In the morning, she'd be up, running on only a few hours of sleep, her hair in an artful little bun, her suit immaculately pressed. Still not content with the effort she'd put in, she'd work over breakfast. We'd sneak kisses over old case studies and squeeze in laughs between all too frequent phone calls of great importance.

This went on for months. It was trying, lonely at times, but I was proud of her. More than that, I was in awe of her. She was a gorgeous little law cyborg, an unstoppable machine programmed to operate at all times as an efficient professional. I was unsure that if put in the same position, I would have had the resolve.

When she eventually won the case, which I had all the faith that she would, I came home early from my job to surprise her with flowers, only to find her on the coach wearing only an undershirt and panties--the remnants of her suit strewn about the room as if she'd been attacked by a tiger--eating a huge bowl of Cinnamon Toast Crunch and watching cartoons.

When she finally noticed me standing in the door way (it took a bit, that Road-Runner was proving really hard to catch and she seemed quite invested), she--this woman who had been, for months, the picture of determination and tenacity--looked up and gave me this sheepish little grin and turned red, and looked, for all the world, like a seven year-old who had been caught skipping school to stay home and goof-off.

She had never looked more human, or more beautiful. We spent the next hour making love and giggling while Looney Tunes played in the background--not the most romantic soundtrack ever, but it worked for us in the moment. I don't like little girls, and am not overly fond of barely-legal erotica, but I do like truth. And the truth is, we are, all of us, regardless of age, little kids playing at being grown-ups, at least a good portion of the time.

Knowing someone as they truly are is always sexy.

The female lawyers I worked with always looked like lounge lizards or deer caught in headlights. Like typical females.

 

[3113]

It is within that format the reader learns how those characters perceive the people in their lives and, as I mentioned, how they regard the men in their lives in particular.

Well, then, I'd say THAT particular character thinks in stereotypes. And in that regard, the author probably got it right. There are women who think that way and see men that way. I frankly, do not. I don't suddenly feel empathy for some asshole just because he's scared as a little kid (if he hasn't been an asshole, then he'll get plenty of empathy for me. But I'm not suddenly going to love him any more or less for his show of weakness). So, Mr. Cunningham certainly hasn't gotten into my female perspective.

However, very like in MoveableBeast's story, when my special guy shows his mischievous, fun-loving kid side, THAT moves me. And not because he's so adult all the time and this is a break in the facade. It's because it touches the little kid inside me and I feel we're both in a simpler, emotional space where we can connect and play in a unique way.

I think we all delight when we see that kind of joy in someone we love, no matter their gender.

 

[Aynmair]

The female lawyers I worked with always looked like lounge lizards or deer caught in headlights. Like typical females.

Seriously?? FU

 

[geronimo_appleby]

Seriously?? FU

the ignore feature is your friend.

 

[Aynmair]

the ignore feature is your friend.

Occasionally he is entertaining. He's getting less so by the minute. So yes, my next stop is....

 

[sr71plt]

Seriously?? FU

Not necessarily seriously. He generally fires for effect and makes his anecdotes up as he goes along.

 

[Aynmair]

Not necessarily seriously. He generally fires for effect and makes his anecdotes up as he goes along.

He caught me off-guard, I guess, with the "typical females". That and his (earlier in the same thread) "all women like being pregnant" or similar line. That's a new one to me: try asking women if they like being pregnant in the 8th or 9th month and see what answers you get. Mine would be, "get this little parasite outta here NOW! yesterday would be even better!" If he'd said that all women like getting pregnant, that might be closer to the truth.

 

[DesEsseintes]

If he'd said that all women like getting pregnant, that might be closer to the truth.

I know what you mean, but I suspect the popularity of various contraceptive devices indicates that even this may be less than universal...