Not bad, but not great--feedback, please!

[Guest]

My first-ever Incest/Taboo story, "An Uplifting Day," has done pretty well, I suppose--4.46 rating, 166 votes, and nearly 40,000 views. (I'm given to understand that votes and views in this category are way more frequent than in most others; certainly this story has far more of both than any of my others.)

However, there is exactly one public comment, which surprises me.

I knew when I posted the story that it might not satisy the hard-core incest fans; it's stepfather/stepdaughter (and mother, peripherally), without penetration. Still, given the lack of feedback, positive or negative, it's hard to know why it's not satisfied more readers. I'd like to understand the audience better so that my writing will appeal more to them.

So, how can my writing for this category be improved? Does the story not go far enough? Is the relationship too distant to be satisfying to the audience? Is it the build-up? Is the sex writing not hot enough? Is the ending too abrupt?

All comments and suggestions are much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

 

[ellynei]

Wish I knew more about that audience so I could give ya a clue. Read the story and didn't get any ideas whatsoever on what they could be missing.

Good luck with the search.

 

[Guest]

Wish I knew more about that audience so I could give ya a clue. Read the story and didn't get any ideas whatsoever on what they could be missing.

Good luck with the search.

Thanks, ellynei. I appreciate you taking the time to review it.

 

[kbate]

It has some problems:

but overall is a decent story.

In the category - you practically have to have the father/daughter get married, have babies and screw upside down to please the audience. I think it is the lack of wild sex and babies that makes it rate lower than I think the writing places it.

The dialogue - is weak and could be more realistic.

Suspension of disbelief is difficult with this one. Work on it.

kb

 

[Guest]

It has some problems:

but overall is a decent story.

In the category - you practically have to have the father/daughter get married, have babies and screw upside down to please the audience. I think it is the lack of wild sex and babies that makes it rate lower than I think the writing places it.

The dialogue - is weak and could be more realistic.

Suspension of disbelief is difficult with this one. Work on it.

kb

Now that you point it out, I realize that there's really not enough foreshadowing of events to make the action credible; I should have thrown in something earlier (maybe from the mom) about the stepdaughter wanting to give him something special for his birthday.

I'll revisit the dialogue; that's not an observation I've had before.

Thanks for your honesty.

 

[slyc_willie]

I, too, couldn't suspend my sense of disbelief too much. There is little in the way of explaining why Rick's wife and step-daughter would do what they did, making the story implausible. Not that a good many incest readers necessarily need plausibility to enjoy a story. But if you were going for something that "just might happen," the story fell short.

A word about punctuation within dialogue. You don't lead-in with a comma, and the first word of dialogue is always capitalized. For instance, you wrote:

"And this," she said brightly, her eyes alive with anticipation, "is me, coming."

It should read:

"And this," she said brightly, her eyes alive with anticipation. "Is me, coming."

I know that an awful lot of people write the first way, to the point where it has become common (and therefor seen as accepted).

All in all, a good vignette. I'm certain readers will want a sequel (since you allude to more happening later), which could give you an opportunity to flesh out Gayle's and Renee's motives.

 

[Guest]

I, too, couldn't suspend my sense of disbelief too much. There is little in the way of explaining why Rick's wife and step-daughter would do what they did, making the story implausible. Not that a good many incest readers necessarily need plausibility to enjoy a story. But if you were going for something that "just might happen," the story fell short.

A word about punctuation within dialogue. You don't lead-in with a comma, and the first word of dialogue is always capitalized. For instance, you wrote:

"And this," she said brightly, her eyes alive with anticipation, "is me, coming."

It should read:

"And this," she said brightly, her eyes alive with anticipation. "Is me, coming."

I know that an awful lot of people write the first way, to the point where it has become common (and therefor seen as accepted).

All in all, a good vignette. I'm certain readers will want a sequel (since you allude to more happening later), which could give you an opportunity to flesh out Gayle's and Renee's motives.

Hmm. I don't have the Chicago Manual of Style at home, but every online reference I find tells me that when the same sentence continues after the speech tag, the speech tag is followed by a comma and the sentence continues with the first letter lowercase (except for proper names, of course). I'll look it up at work.

Thanks.

 

[wildehafer]

A word about punctuation within dialogue. You don't lead-in with a comma, and the first word of dialogue is always capitalized. For instance, you wrote:

"And this," she said brightly, her eyes alive with anticipation, "is me, coming."

It should read:

"And this," she said brightly, her eyes alive with anticipation. "Is me, coming."

I know that an awful lot of people write the first way, to the point where it has become common (and therefor seen as accepted).

I disagree with this and after re-reading How To Make Characters Talk I corrected my understanding of this (I beileved as willie did).

The tag can be in the middle and connected to speech on the left or the right and can link both without resorting to the second speech segment being in a sentence of it's own (see Lesson 5 "The Tag in the Middle").

As for the story, it's just a vignette for christ's sake. How much character development do people expect and further why does every thing have to end in some bloody insane orgy that will produce two headed offspring with IQs of 40?

Perhaps only a small section of the readership can actually appreciate the story for its literary quality and not necessarily just the incestual fucking.

Kudos for you not reducing the story to a base level to satisfy the larger part of the readership that cannot appreciate something a little different with quality.

I rated it 5 btw.

 

[slyc_willie]

Hmm. I don't have the Chicago Manual of Style at home, but every online reference I find tells me that when the same sentence continues after the speech tag, the speech tag is followed by a comma and the sentence continues with the first letter lowercase (except for proper names, of course). I'll look it up at work.

Thanks.

It's just basic literary style.

I disagree with this and after re-reading How To Make Characters Talk I corrected my understanding of this (I beileved as willie did).

The tag can be in the middle and connected to speech on the left or the right and can link both without resorting to the second speech segment being in a sentence of it's own (see Lesson 5 "The Tag in the Middle").

Well, this is where the "I'm just writing this for a free online site" and the "I'm writing seriously" crowds butt heads. The vast majority of published novels includes dialogue and tags the way I described. Every writer is free to use their own style, of course, especially on Lit. God knows there are more than a few writers who make (or break) their own writing rules.

 

[wildehafer]

Well, this is where the "I'm just writing this for a free online site" and the "I'm writing seriously" crowds butt heads. The vast majority of published novels includes dialogue and tags the way I described. Every writer is free to use their own style, of course, especially on Lit. God knows there are more than a few writers who make (or break) their own writing rules.

Agreed. The language however is a living thing and whilst words come and go, the written form should have flexibility within it to cater for a number of different styles.

 

[Guest]

As for the story, it's just a vignette for christ's sake. How much character development do people expect and further why does every thing have to end in some bloody insane orgy that will produce two headed offspring with IQs of 40?

Perhaps only a small section of the readership can actually appreciate the story for its literary quality and not necessarily just the incestual fucking.

Kudos for you not reducing the story to a base level to satisfy the larger part of the readership that cannot appreciate something a little different with quality.

I rated it 5 btw.

Thanks much, wildehafer, for vote as well as the kind words about the quality of the writing.

But here's the rub--I discovered during the Winter Holidays contest that I write the stories that I want to write without necessarily thinking overmuch about the audience. I'm just vain enough, though, to want my work to appeal to a larger audience without sacrificing the quality of the writing. To do that, I need to figure out what the audience wants and give them more of that without sacrificing quality; I don't want to reduce the storyline to the lowest common denominator, i.e., ending "in some bloody insane orgy that will produce two headed offspring with IQs of 40" (as you so aptly put it) just to troll for votes.

So, I'm looking for the middle ground.

I do think the comments about suspension of disbelief in this story are valid; I should have taken a little more time building a background that would support the plot, such as it is, and I appreciate the folks who took the time to read and point that out.

 

[Guest]

The re-edited version of "An Uplifting Day" has posted.

If you'd like to see what your efforts have wrought, I'd appreciate knowing whether you think I've succeeded in addressing the issues you brought up with the original version.

Thanks again, and in advance, for your input!

 

[slyc_willie]

The re-edited version of "An Uplifting Day" has posted.

If you'd like to see what your efforts have wrought, I'd appreciate knowing whether you think I've succeeded in addressing the issues you brought up with the original version.

Thanks again, and in advance, for your input!

Including a little foreshadowing by the wife certainly aided in the eventual scenario. Funny how just a little tweaking can make a difference.

As a fantasy, the story works well. Any incest tale involving mother and daughter is always a hard one to pull off (no pun intended), so a certain amount of exception to reality is demanded. Still, I can easily see Gayle as the wickedly sexy older woman who wonders what would happen if her daughter chose to act out on natural incestuous feelings she harbored toward her father (or step-father). Those few paragraphs you added affirmed Gayle as more of an instigator than the daughter.

Well done.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

I’m no expert on incest/taboo and I’ve only read the revised version so feel free to ignore me.

First, superb writer as he is, Slyc is wrong on dialogue punctuation as wildehafer pointed out. It is not a question of freebie porn writers not understanding. Whispersecret is an English teacher and all punctuation guides agree with her. From;

[ about.com

When a tag line interrupts a sentence, it should be set off by commas. Note that the first letter of the second half of the sentence is in lower case, as in this example from Flannery O'Connor's "Greenleaf":

"That is," Wesley said, "that neither you nor me is her boy..."

Second, I think that the dialogue still reads a bit funny as kb said. This is essentially a Rick POV story and the somewhat contrived 2 or 3-worders from the girls in the middle of paragraphs don’t ring entirely true as conversation. They seem more kind of quips than story development, to my mind.

Cutting to the quick, I don’t think this enjoyable piece is an incest story or fits the lit incest genre really. Forgetting she is a stepdaughter – which is immediately non-incest – and the fact Renee is 24 – the story dwells (for the good according to all of us here) on inner thoughts, troubled desires and innate guilt. Incest here is a fantasy between consenting adults where the family connections help simplify the process of getting people into bed.

You write a thoughtful piece, with shades of male submission (not good in incest), with no graphic sex and a concentration on what people are thinking, rather than doing or seeing.

You know I like your writing, and the angst of Rick is great here, but I think you miss the fantasy aspect of lit incest by the introspection before the ‘money shot’ and the lack of hammering home earlier the ‘mommy’, ‘daddy’, ‘daughter’ dialogue.

As I said, this is a bit left-field for me, but if you got more comments I think they would be suggestions on 3-somes, pregnancies and suchlike.

If it’s worth anything, I thought this was a well-written vignette. All strength to your elbow.

 

[Guest]

I’m no expert on incest/taboo and I’ve only read the revised version so feel free to ignore me.

First, superb writer as he is, Slyc is wrong on dialogue punctuation as wildehafer pointed out. It is not a question of freebie porn writers not understanding. Whispersecret is an English teacher and all punctuation guides agree with her. From;

[ about.com



Second, I think that the dialogue still reads a bit funny as kb said. This is essentially a Rick POV story and the somewhat contrived 2 or 3-worders from the girls in the middle of paragraphs don’t ring entirely true as conversation. They seem more kind of quips than story development, to my mind.

Cutting to the quick, I don’t think this enjoyable piece is an incest story or fits the lit incest genre really. Forgetting she is a stepdaughter – which is immediately non-incest – and the fact Renee is 24 – the story dwells (for the good according to all of us here) on inner thoughts, troubled desires and innate guilt. Incest here is a fantasy between consenting adults where the family connections help simplify the process of getting people into bed.

You write a thoughtful piece, with shades of male submission (not good in incest), with no graphic sex and a concentration on what people are thinking, rather than doing or seeing.

You know I like your writing, and the angst of Rick is great here, but I think you miss the fantasy aspect of lit incest by the introspection before the ‘money shot’ and the lack of hammering home earlier the ‘mommy’, ‘daddy’, ‘daughter’ dialogue.

As I said, this is a bit left-field for me, but if you got more comments I think they would be suggestions on 3-somes, pregnancies and suchlike.

If it’s worth anything, I thought this was a well-written vignette. All strength to your elbow.

And my elbow thanks you.

I agree that the relationship between Rick and Renee is a bit tangential for the category and that the "action" is not nearly intense enough for fans of the genre. Thanks for your feedback; it's much appreciated.

Should I venture into this category again (not with this story, as I've no desire to continue it), I'll likely take a consanguinal relationship with one of the "participants" a good deal closer to the age of consent and ensure that every available orifice is filled at least once.

 

[AverageBear]

Thanks

Just wanted to say thanks to all involved in this thread. Not that I've piped up before now on this one, but reading the exchanges has been of benefit to me as a writer. It's encouraging to see constructive and genuine feedback as writers help one another improve their work - the old "iron sharpens iron" phenomenon... Happy New Year to all!

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Just wanted to say thanks to all involved in this thread. Not that I've piped up before now on this one, but reading the exchanges has been of benefit to me as a writer. It's encouraging to see constructive and genuine feedback as writers help one another improve their work - the old "iron sharpens iron" phenomenon... Happy New Year to all!

Feel free to pipe anytime you fancy - all are welcome.

Happy New Year to you too.