Nonessential Components

[Ray Dario]

In my writing style I use a lot of nonessential components in my sentences. The books I have and the links online that I have found say to put comma's on both sides of them. But I am constantly getting feedback about too many comma's in my stories and recently I had someone whom I respect a great deal edit one of my stories and, on the second time through, her most common complaint was this very thing.

Here is a link to a web site that I used to figure out what I was supposed to do.

http://chuma.cas.usf.edu/~olson/pms/comma.html

just scroll down to "nonessential components"

So maybe I don't understand, or maybe what I read was wrong. But let's try a sample sentence.

It was clear, even to him, that the room was coordinated but the designer must have been depressed, or psychotic.

The part I'm talking about is the "even to him"

I took it as a nonessential component and seperated it with commas. Is that right? Is it wrong?

What do you guys think?

Ray

 

[ilovewriting]

It was clear, even to him, that the room was coordinated but the designer must have been depressed, or psychotic.

The part I'm talking about is the "even to him"

I took it as a nonessential component and seperated it with commas. Is that right? Is it wrong?

Ray [/B]

The way i understood it writing it like this was a good way to do it: It was clear - even to him - that the room was coordinated but the designer must have been depressed, or psychotic.

That way it sort of separates EVEN TO HIM from the sentense yet is still part of it.

 

[Wm_Sexspear]

Ray, what generally works for me re: commas. Part of my proofing process is to read my story out loud. If it feels natural to pause as I speak, a comma probably belongs there. If I wouldn't pause if I was actually speaking those words, I'll remove the comma, rules or not.

Larry

 

[KillerMuffin]

Nonessential components are known as parenthetical phrases.

This is the correct punctuation:

It was clear, even to him, that the room was coordinated but the designer must have been depressed or psychotic.

Even to him is parenthetical because it doesn't have anything to do with the sentence. You should not put a comma in front of or unless it's part of a series. If you want to put a pause there to create impact then it should be written like this:

It was clear, even to him, that the room was coordinated but the designer must have been depressed. Or psychotic.

Now there are some camps who claim that there should always be a comma in front of the conjunction "but." It really depends on the sentence. My guide says that if the clauses connected by the conjunction are short and very closely connect you may omit the comma.

After skimming a few stories, you are using commas incorrectly. However, it's generally leaving them off in the wrong places and inserting them incorrectly in others. Your website's comma guideline jibe with everything I've read on the subject.

You do need to look into the uses of a semi-colon because you're involved in several comma faults/comma splices.

I suggest you purchase a good grammar and punctuation guide. They're indispensible if you're serious about writing.

 

[wildsweetone]

KillerMuffin,

It was clear, even to him, that the room was coordinated but the designer must have been depressed or psychotic.
It was clear, even to him, that the room was coordinated but the designer must have been depressed. Or psychotic.
It was clear even to him that the room was coordinated, but the designer must have been depressed or psychotic.

KM what you're saying really is that either of these above three are ok, the first being the most preferable, is that right? sorry i'm learning here too.

also, in the case of dialogue, would the author still need to insert the commas around a parenthetical phrase, or would the speech need to be written differently to include an action?

lastly, do you have a particular guide to recommend? i'm assuming punctuation and grammar are standard within the english language. the alternative is, do you do house calls?

 

[Ray Dario]

It was clear, even to him, that the room was coordinated but the designer must have been depressed. Or psychotic.

KM, Thanks for helping me out. After consulting my book of style I still think the last part was mechanically correct, but your version is more effective. Being more effective makes it better, IMHO.

The reason I think "... depressed, or psychotic." was mechanically correct is because the words "or psychotic" are words added to the sentence; not a part of a list. Because they are "added words" setting it apart as a dramatic fragment works well. Although, as a fragment, it wouldn't be grammatically correct.

Ray

 

[Whispersecret]

The way I understood parenthetical phrases, the phrase is bracketed by commas because if it is removed, you still have a complete sentence left.

I'd go easy on dashes. Commas shouldn't be bothersome to readers at all unless you're using them incorrectly or the real problem is an over-abundance of complex sentences.

Also, in the example given, I'd watch the use of the verb "to be." Strive for more active verbs and your writing will have more punch.

It was clear, even to him, that the room was coordinated but the designer must have been depressed or psychotic.

Perhaps it would be better to say

Even to him, the room's coordinated decor seemed professional, yet the designer must have been depressed or psychotic.

There is no need for a comma after "depressed."

 

[Ray Dario]

The way I understood parenthetical phrases, the phrase is bracketed by commas because if it is removed, you still have a complete sentence left.

Whisper, I think that is only one of the tests. I think it must not alter the basic meaning of the sentence either.

In other words if you remove it, not only is the sentence still complete, but it still essentially says the same thing.

The example I saw of this says.

Banks which hold over one billion in capital are rare.

Banks, which hold over one billion in capital, are rare.

These two sentences mean dramatically different things. The first says that banks with over a billion in capital are rare, the second says that banks all have over a billion in capital and are rare.

Well anyway that is my take on it.

Ray

 

[Whispersecret]

Yes, you're right, Ray. However, I don't think commas are necessary or even wanted in that example.

 

[KillerMuffin]

You're right about that, as usual, Whisper.

Websters says that dashes are used to indicate an abrupt change of ideas, but should be used sparingly. Excessive use of the dash usually indicates that the writer does no know what punctuation mark to use.

<snip>

Note on punctuation of parenthetical matter: Close study of the rules on commas, parentheses, and dashes will show you that any one of the threepunctuation marks may be used to set off parenthetical words, phrases, or clauses. When should you use the commas, dash, or parentheses? No strict rule can be stated. In general, follow this practice: In punctuating parenthetical matter, use dashes mainly for visual effect; use commas if the material is short; and use parentheses if the material is long.




As for the grammar guide? The best thing to do is go the local book store and browse through. The Chicago Manual of Style is usually highly recommended, but if you don't understand what it tells you it's not going to do any good. Mine comes from Websters.

Yes, Ray, . . . , or psychotic, can be correct. However most people are going to read it as a list and wonder why you're sticking unnecessary commas in there. Or psychotic really isn't an afterthought within the sentence. In creative writing, you'll find that afterthoughts are generally treated as a sentence fragment. You need to make sure to use them sparingly or you'll minimize your impact and maximize the reader-feeling that you don't know your grammar.

When it comes to punctuation and grammar, there is one set in stone rule that only the sublimely talented can break. "You cannot transcend that which you do not know." In other words, to break the rules and get away with it, you have to know the rules.

 

[Ray Dario]

Yeah, KM, once I saw your version I said "Wow! That works better." It was more dramatic and really set the tone for the psychotic.

I don't use fragments very often. I read a book by C.J. Cherrah (sp) where every other sentence was a fragment and it just really turned me off of them. But, used correctly, they can be very effective.

BTW, I'm learning the rules of grammer not to transcend them but so that my writing will improve. I sure wish I hadn't spent so much time goofing off in 9th grade english.

Ray

 

[jon.hayworth]

Ray,

I am not sure what class I was in when I was supposed to be doing English Grammar, but I agree with you I too wish that I had paid more attention.

It was clear, even to him, that the room was coordinated but the designer must have been depressed, or psychotic.

Maybe the sentence would be stronger if it was written. -

Even to him, it was clear that the room was coordinated but the designer must have been depressed, or psychotic.

Just a thought!

jon

 

[darkness_d]

chronic commatitis

Ray,

I tend to write in a "conversational" style, and that leads to having many tangential and non-essential components.

Like you, I preferred KM's version with the period and sentence fragment. I liked it because it created a comic beat, but I also liked it because it used two different punctuation marks and avoided looking cluttered. One of the reasons I occasionally use dashes, or end punctuation coupled with fragments, is to prevent a complex sentence from becoming a series of commas. Technically the meaning is the same, but it just becomes easier to read.

Just a few of my comma rules (compiled from bouncing around from college to college and having to use a different stylist at each)

"and, but, or, because" rule
Commas should be used to separate independent clauses joined by a conjunction; if the words on each side of the conjunction would stand as independent sentences, then you need a comma.

"Appositive rule" ("Mr. Jenkins, my math teacher, ..." "Ted, the taller of the two boys, ..."
Sentences containing an appositive or some other element set off by commas probably should not be joined with other sentences. Following this rule can prevent you getting into tricky situations altogether. No reader, editor or teacher has ever criticized me for using too many periods.

"personal rule"
When wondering how to punctuate one of my tangential comments within a sentence, I often curve my hand in the shape of a comma and strike myself repeatedly in the forehead. At this time I repeatedly say, "Quit commenting on the fucking sentence and just write the damn thing!"

It was the last of these rules that ultimately led to my getting degrees from two of the many colleges I sporadically attended. So, my nine years as an undergrad wasn't completely wasted. I was completely wasted, but the nine years weren't! Oh my god, the tangents are taking over this post! Quick, somebody throw an editor on that thing!

---darkness_d---

 

[Axeltheswede]

comma discussion

This thread is interesting and informative. I have to agree with Wm_Sexspear. Read your story out loud. The pauses will tell you where you need a comma.

When I proof like this, I would guess I add two or three commas for every one I take out.

There is an additional benefit of reading out loud. You can see where you need to break up a complex sentence into two or three smaller sentences.

 

[wildsweetone]

on that reading out loud thought...

i've managed to download and use a program from ZDNET called Read Please 2002. it was free. i can type in, or copy and paste, my story and have the program read the story aloud to me.

there are four voices, 2 male and 2 female, all with american accents. but i've found it most useful for comma work.

 

[TheEarl]

Non-essential phrases are only comma'd when the sentence would work grammatically without them.

Taking your original sentence:
"It was clear, even to him, that the room was coordinated but the designer must have been depressed, or psychotic."

"It was clear that the room was coordinated but the designer must have been depressed, or psychotic."

The sentence is grammatically correct without the "even to him," so the commas are necessary. I agree with KM, the "or psychotic" should be a new sentence, or, if you want to keep it together, without punctuation.

Just a small quibble. IMHO there should be a comma before the "but." I'm pretty certain that "but" requires a comma. but then again I have been accused of being a comma obsessed freak before, so who am I to judge?

WildSweetOne: Where did you get that reading aloud program? I could really use something like that.

The Earl

 

[wildsweetone]

link

here we are, the ReadPlease link dear

http://downloads-zdnet.com.com/3120-20-0.html?qt=ReadPlease&tg=dl-2001

 

[Ray Dario]

Re: link

here we are, the ReadPlease link dear

It's kind of a neat program, but it's funny listening to it try to read dirty words.

Pussy comes out pussie as in with puss running out of it. Ewww, not a good image for me.

And if you're into the Never Ending Orgasmic Scream ... just forget it. It reads each letter you type, by the name of the letter.

But overall it did a better job than I expected, not as good as, say, KM does with her sexy voice, but hey!

Ray

 

[wildsweetone]

eww for sure

disgusting descriptive visual ray, thanks for that! a good lasting memory to take away with me for the week rofl

 

[Quasimodem]

KillerMuffin Should Like ReadPlease2002

ReadPlease2002 reads "..." as "dot dot dot."

So, it's not all squicky images.

ReadPlease2002 makes a genuine contribution to our punctuation debates.


KillerMuffin should love ReadPlease2002. And, that alone is worth the trouble of downloading it.

Thanks for pointing ReadPlease2002 out,WSO!

 

[Uther_Pendragon]

This is one of those areas where perfectly corrrect
grammar can be lousy style.
Yes, a parenthetical phrase should be set off by commas.
You can also use dashes or -- suprise -- parentheses.
On the other hand, if you are using commas all over the
page, your reader may be confused by their frequency.
In that case, you need to ask yourself which phrases you
could eliminate to improve the story and which commas
you could eliminate while keeping the phrase.
The example shows a comman problem.
"It was clear, even to him, ...." is gramatical.
"It was clear even to him ...." is gramatical.
They communicate, however, slightly different ideas.
Does the difference make a difference?
Do you really object to writing the story which contains
the second idea? Only *you* can decide that.

 

[Whispersecret]

The presence of correct punctuation will never distract the reader.

Punctuation was invented to HELP readers, not bother or confuse them. If you use commas, or any other punctuation mark, properly, you should have no problem being understood.

I'm not sure if there is such a thing as overuse of a comma. There are few instances where commas are optional. Usually you don't have a choice where they need to go. Many of the other punctuation marks can be, and are, abused.

Too many exclamation points - Your story starts to sound overly vivacious and bubbly, like a teenager who drank too many Cokes.

Too many ellipses - You mark yourself as an amateur, uncertain of proper punctuation.

Too many question marks - If you have more than one together, it's wrong. (Did you kiss him????) It's all right to do that in an informal letter, but in a story? Absolutely not.

So, there you go. I'm done.

 

[TheEarl]

I'm not sure if there is such a thing as overuse of a comma. There are few instances where commas are optional. Usually you don't have a choice where they need to go.

You've never read any of my work have you?

The Earl (Who is not a comma-obssessed freak. Not at all. Ever. No, I don't want to go back to the hospital!)

 

[Whispersecret]

Just scanned your Coffee story. Your problem is not too many commas. It's run-on sentences (which you connect with commas) and a continuous use of complex sentences. There are almost no simple sentences. I felt your story was like a runaway horse. I had no time to catch my breath. It was ACTIONACTIONACTION, with no pauses. Perhaps this was your intent.

Also, you changed tenses mid-story.

Who told you you had too many commas, anyway? An unknown fan or a fellow writer?

 

[TrinaT]

Wildsweetone

Thanks for the download info. I'm looking forward to trying the program. I do agree with KM, I read back my stories aloud, when I find a break that is necessary I use a comma. If I find the sentence would be better expressed broken down further, a semicolon is used or a new sentence created.

Typing manuscripts for that weekly paycheck, I've found that many journals have their own detailed instructions for submissions. My co-workers and I have found that rules that we taught a few years ago about puncuation nolonger apply now. Strange, who makes up these rules anyway? Many times, we refer to the journals, books, etc. that the professors are submitting to. We'll read some of the published manuscripts and find the consistant patterns and use that information with the journal publishing information.

After posting my first story, I decided to see what publishers are looking for in submissions and review their instructions. For the most part, I use the best of all of them and run with it.

Thanks again for the postings,

TrinaT


Update:

I tried out the program and found it to be extremely helpful. I'm considering buying the updated version with the ATT real-voice technology included in the program. I appreciate the information, thanks again.

TrinaT