None so Blind!

[Todd]

How about comparing context to context pyper?

right now all you have done is compare apple and oranges, profecy and history.

doing that I can make every verse contradict itself, that is easy to do

 

[DarkAngel]

Genderbender, I like the way you think.

Pyper, I can remember a lot of church potlucks where you weren't sure WHAT was being served.

Twenty or more years ago, some "Christian" music group had a song called "Oh Buddha." Can't remember a specific lyric, but it was basically making fun of non-Christian religions. This seems to be a fairly exclusive characteristic of Xianity, cause I can't imagine a bunch of Buddhists writing a song that makes fun of followers of other religions.

On that note, here are some words to live by:
"I believe in people
White and black and blue <------ Blue? Dam and I thought Smurfs where just a cartoon?
I believe in people
Who don't believe the same way I do."
--Todd Snider

 

[genderbender]

[B
Jesus said: "I bring not peace, but a sword."

Nice sentiment for someone who was supposed to be a pacifist. [/B]

The bible is more of a political document than a testament of faith. For hundreds of years there was a struggle over what would be included and what excluded from the book we now call the bible. For anyone who is serious in understanding how this document unfolded I'd encourage you to look at the Jesus Seminar, a group of scholars who've attempted through linguistic analysis, archaelogical study and comparative analysis of contemporary documents to ascertain what in the gospels authentically comes from early sources and what has been added later by those committed to one or another view of what the church should be and who Jesus was. I doubt the quote you mention above belongs to Jesus. You might also wish to look at a book called "The Gospel According to Jesus," written by Stephen Mitchell. It represents his collation of the schlarship of the Jesus Seminar, taking what has been clearly shown to be authentic and leaving out the rest. The message of Jesus presented in this book is little different from the message of other great teachers such as the Buddha. Getting caught up in the detailed assertions of the bible, is like trying to do analysis of the water in a mirage. Remember there are people with vested interests in certain readings of the bible and in supporting certain established institutions. If you'd like some alternative reading on the subject of the early church you might want to explore the Gnostic Gospels as well as the Jesus Seminar. Its all interesting material, far more interesting than the pissing contests some people try to create out of imprecise words that have been manipulated and reinterpreted for two millenia.

 

[Pyper]

I don't understand exactly what you're asking for, Todd. Quotes like my last one are not out of context, and even if they were, I still don't see how you can avoid the violent nature of the language in them. If it is so easy to find a contradiction for every passage in the Bible, as you have just said, why is this Bible a valid book at all? Why trust anything Jesus said, if he is constantly contradicting himself? How can you say you belong to a religion that is peaceful and loving, when the founder of that religion is on the record as advocating things like this:

(this is my last quote, I swear)
"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and and brethren, and sisters, yea and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26)

Are these the family values you want to be teaching to your children? Hate everybody, or you can't follow Jesus?

 

[DarkAngel]

Ah, Dark Lady, that what the Smurfs *want* you to think! (O I see)

Lady???? Lady?????

Sheesh.....

Checks pants.../ AHHHHHHH where did it go.... O there it is...

 

[Pyper]

Genderbender, I completely agree with you that the Bible is a convoluted document that has been garbled over the millenia. My frustration is that people try to make a religion out of this thing by selecting the passages that best fit their interests. I'm just throwing out a few passages that most Christians like to neatly side-step. And yes, Jesus' message was probably little different that other religious figures, such as Confucious or Buddha. The only thing he added, as far as I can tell, is eternal damnation.

 

[DarkAngel]

Can I ask one question......


Why do you people know the bbbbbb....iiiiii.....bbbbllllee..
so well? Who cares what it says, values are what we make and what we consive as a society. Not from what we read. Remember, this is how wars were started, and millions of people became slaves and died, because people said "You do not believe in my religion so you shall either join or DIE." If you can tell me where the intelligence is that, I will believe everything you say.


~DA~


Since I can create, clone, heal, and destroy life. Does that make me a God?

 

[genderbender]

"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and and brethren, and sisters, yea and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26)

Are these the family values you want to be teaching to your children? Hate everybody, or you can't follow Jesus?

Another possible interpretation of those words, taken from a psychological perspective, is that to become a mature, whole human being, capable of embracing a truly spiritual way of being in the world, one must turn away from all that constrains you. The hate is not of the personhood of father, mother, wife and children, but of limits inherent in those relationships. I would imagine Jesus would counsel love of family members in the same way that he says to love one another.

A second interpretation, taking these words as later fabrications from a church demanding loyalty from its members, would say they are harsh, they do split families. And this could very well have served a growing church in need of laborers in the vineyard.

You can take your pick.

 

[DarkAngel]

Apologies to Dark Angel! My mental lapse in no way reflects on whatever might be in his pants. (Sure, now blame whats in my pants... Its okay... the gerbils still think you big)

 

[Pyper]

The Bible is actually a very interesting document, Dark Angel. I used to read it in my spare time, mostly the Old Testament, which is much more violent and scary than the New Testament, which is basically just Jesus talking.

Also, knowledge of the Bible gives you ammo to defend yourself against rabid Jehovah's Witnesses and the like.

Just an anecdote from my childhood that I feel represents the attitude most Christians have toward the Bible: they only see what they want to see. As I said before, when I was a kid, I used to read the Bible in my spare time. I came upon a story about King David, in one of the Kings chapters. It told how there were a group of people worshipping a "dragon" (I assume some type of lizard), and David didn't like it. The people would put out offerings for the dragon every night, and every morning the offerings would be gone. The people said it was proof that their god was real. So David sent a couple spies to watch the altar of this god for the night, and the spies saw the priests and their families come in and eat the food. David had them all killed, right down to the littlest children and babies. I tried to ask my mother and my catechism teachers about this, and they denied this story even existed. As if I was making it up!

Sorry for the long post, just my views on followers of the Bible and their rose colored glasses.

 

[genderbender]

My frustration is that people try to make a religion out of this thing by selecting the passages that best fit their interests.

Simply consider the fact that people who cling so strongly to anything, making it a crusade for their lives, are struggling within themselve with an incredible insecurity. Religions offer certainty in a world of unbelievable uncertainty. Freud called religion the opiate of the masses. I feel that's a bit too harsh. All of us are faced with impermanence. There is suffering in the world and all around us will eventually die. We will die. These are profound challenges for us to face. That we find comfort in religion is understandable. That we beat other people up with what we've taken to assuage our own fears, is regrettable. Yet, how many millions of people have died throughout history simply because they've chosen a path different from others in trying to make sense of this world. You might want to think about letting those people so in need of being right about these things to play by themselves, with themselves. This is a great site to do that. We can just let them masturbate verbally, while we play the role of voyeur.

 

[Guest]

 

[Pyper]

Genderbender, I suppose you are right. I sometimes get carried away with my militant atheism, and try to bring people over to my side, which I suppose makes me no better than the prosletyzing Christians. I have to remind myself that however much I am completely sure I am right, devout Christians are completely sure they are right as well. I suppose I shouldn't harass them as long as they don't hurt anybody. As I said in a previous post, we're all going to end up worm food anyway.

Lioness, when I said the religion of the Bible, I was making a blanket statement including all Christianity. I know that's generalizing, but I still believe my comments apply to any Christian. (Unless they are a Christian that worships a vengeful, tyrannical, self-contradicting God.)

Oops, I got insulting again there. Maybe it's time for a nap.

 

[Todd]

Originally posted by Pyper
My frustration is that people try to make a religion out of this thing by selecting the passages that best fit their interests.

The same way you are taking select passages to back your statements ups?

What required in both camps is to learn about context something a lot of religionists and anti religionists do not know how to use

BTW I was brought up athiest studies the bible as a tool to tear apart christians. I take take every verse in the bible and make it look like ti advocates some form of murder, abuse, rape, killing, poisoning, kidnapping, debauchery that anyone can name. Thats not the point here.

Concerning Jehovahs witness studing any other bible other than the NWT: new world translation will not help you against them same with the Mormons: you need to study the book of mormon.

Concerning the dragon story thats part of the apocrhypha a series of books only accepted in the bible by catholics. Cults dont' even accept them. Because there is only one series of autographs ans most believe them to be written after the zero hour and merely stories of good cheer to cheer and moral the jews in a time of captivity, but that is niether here nor there.

I won't, don't want to change your mind, I know where you are in your understanding as i was there and beyond.

and you don't wont change my mind.

Its all fun and games until some one loses a soul themn it becomes a sport,

 

[Countess DeWinter]

Just an anecdote from my childhood that I feel represents the attitude most Christians have toward the Bible

...my views on followers of the Bible and their rose colored glasses.

I know I shouldn't be encouraging this sort of thing, but I just have a hard time being insulted and ignoring it. Pyper, you must get around! To know most of the Christians in the world, I'm really impressed. How many of the ones dying for their faith have you met? How many of the people who live quiet Godly lives have you met? How many true believers do you really know? Does insulting them make you feel better?

I'm not baiting here, I really want to know. I've been a Christian - actually the term used by the apostles and such was "believer" it was the other people in the city of Antioch who called them "Christians (followers of Christ)" - for most of my life and known hundreds of fine non-hypocritical believers yet I would never make a statement about "most" of them.

I guess I'm just lucky that the one athiest I've known was a very nice young woman who never looked down her nose at me for my "weakness" of faith. We just helped each other through Spanish, Chemistry and various psych classes. So I tend to think of her when I think of athiests. She represents "them" well.

 

[Guest]

 

[Pyper]

Concerning the dragon story thats part of the apocrhypha a series of books only accepted in the bible by catholics. Cults dont' even accept them.

I would just like to say to that...it is not! This story was in the King James version of the Bible! In Kings! I wish I could give you the verse number, but I don't got a Bible with me.

To Countess: Of course I don't know every Christian, but I do know a whole lot. And I do know some who have been tortured for their faith and seen others die for it. But this incredible faith doesn't mean that they are not fooling themselves. You told me before that people who created religion to fit their beliefs irritated you. I believe every religion, especially Christianity is like that. In the Middle Ages, God was vengeful and cruel. Now he is all peace and love. Did God change? No. Did the Bible change? No, not really. Did the minds of the people change. Yes. People construct their religion to fit their views, that's the way it has always been. And that's one of the reasons that I cannot fathom believing.

 

[Countess DeWinter]

In the Middle Ages, God was vengeful and cruel. Now he is all peace and love. Did God change? No. Did the Bible change? No, not really. Did the minds of the people change. Yes. People construct their religion to fit their views, that's the way it has always been. And that's one of the reasons that I cannot fathom believing. [/B]

You're right. God hasn't changed. He has always been a just God. The flood of His wrath has always been held back by the dam of his mercy. When the dam finally gives way and the world is judged, I don't have to worry or wonder that I might get swept away in the flood.
You see, I don't believe that just being good or following someone's teachings will get you to heaven. It would be nice if that were so, but I just don't believe that. I believe that to be saved, you have to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.
Interestingly, if someone is swimming somewhere unsafe and you know that they're going to get swamed by an undertow or waves...you throw them a life preserver, right? What if they don't know they're drowning? They think you're an idiot. That's what happens when you "throw" the gospel at someone who isn't aware that they're "drowning."

I can't fathom someone who can look at the incredible vistas in nature, the awesome power of a hurricane or tornado, the innocent face of a new born baby and NOT see God.
But I can respect that you don't.

 

[DarkAngel]

Can I ask one question......


Why do you people know the bbbbbb....iiiiii.....bbbbllllee..
so well? Who cares what it says, values are what we make and what we consive as a society. Not from what we read. Remember, this is how wars were started, and millions of people became slaves and died, because people said "You do not believe in my religion so you shall either join or DIE." If you can tell me where the intelligence is that, I will believe everything you say.


~DA~


Since I can create, clone, heal, and destroy life. Does that make me a God?

 

[Pyper]

Here's a question I pose to my devout Catholic mother when she tries to get me to go to mass:

Don't you think, that if you were born and raised in a Muslim country, that you would be convinced that one cannot be saved unless they accept Mohammed as their lord and personal savior?

She said yes, she probably would. So I said, then why do you believe in Jesus?

She said she didn't know. And this is one answer I can't argue with. I don't know.

 

[DarkAngel]

Here's a question I pose to my devout Catholic mother when she tries to get me to go to mass:

Don't you think, that if you were born and raised in a Muslim country, that you would be convinced that one cannot be saved unless they accept Mohammed as their lord and personal savior?

She said yes, she probably would. So I said, then why do you believe in Jesus?

She said she didn't know. And this is one answer I can't argue with. I don't know.

Well if you don't know.. then who knows....

Wait!!!! I got it!!!! The wizard of OZ... he knows everything....

 

[Todd]

Daniel Bel and the Snake straight from the DoueyCatholic Bible

1 When King Astyages was laid with his fathers, Cyrus the Persian received his kingdom.
2 And Daniel was a companion of the king, and was the most honored of his friends.
3 Now the Babylonians had an idol called Bel, and every day they spent on it twelve bushels of fine flour and forty sheep and fifty gallons of wine.
4 The king revered it and went every day to worship it. But Daniel worshiped his own God.
5 And the king said to him, "Why do you not worship Bel?" He answered, "Because I do not revere man-made idols, but the living God, who created heaven and earth and has dominion over all flesh."
6 The king said to him, "Do you not think that Bel is a living God? Do you not see how much he eats and drinks every day?"
7 Then Daniel laughed, and said, "Do not be deceived, O king; for this is but clay inside and brass outside, and it never ate or drank anything."
8 Then the king was angry, and he called his priests and said to them, "If you do not tell me who is eating these provisions, you shall die.
9 But if you prove that Bel is eating them, Daniel shall die, because he blasphemed against Bel." And Daniel said to the king, "Let it be done as you have said."
10 Now there were seventy priests of Bel, besides their wives and children. And the king went with Daniel into the temple of Bel.
11 And the priests of Bel said, "Behold, we are going outside; you yourself, O king, shall set forth the food and mix and place the wine, and shut the door and seal it with your signet.
12 And when you return in the morning, if you do not find that Bel has eaten it all, we will die; or else Daniel will, who is telling lies about us."
13 They were unconcerned, for beneath the table they had made a hidden entrance, through which they used to go in regularly and consume the provisions.
14 When they had gone out, the king set forth the food for Bel. Then Daniel ordered his servants to bring ashes and they sifted them throughout the whole temple in the presence of the king alone. Then they went out, shut the door and sealed it with the king's signet, and departed.
15 In the night the priests came with their wives and children, as they were accustomed to do, and ate and drank everything.
16 Early in the morning the king rose and came, and Daniel with him.
17 And the king said, "Are the seals unbroken, Daniel?" He answered, "They are unbroken, O king."
18 As soon as the doors were opened, the king looked at the table, and shouted in a loud voice, "You are great, O Bel; and with you there is no deceit, none at all."
19 Then Daniel laughed, and restrained the king from going in, and said, "Look at the floor, and notice whose footsteps these are."
20 The king said, "I see the footsteps of men and women and children."
21 Then the king was enraged, and he seized the priests and their wives and children; and they showed him the secret doors through which they were accustomed to enter and devour what was on the table.
22 Therefore the king put them to death, and gave Bel over to Daniel, who destroyed it and its temple.

 

[Countess DeWinter]

DA...it seems you forgot to take your medication again. Toddle off now and find the nurse

 

[DarkAngel]

No God damit....

I will not take it....


Hey, I have a very good point...

Since I can create, clone, heal, and destroy life. Does that make me a God?

 

[Pyper]

Yep, that's the story Todd. I'm not saying it doesn't exist in a Catholic Bible, I'm just saying it's part of the regular old King James Bible too, because how would I know it even existed if it wasn't? I only had a King James Bible.

Doesn't that story strike you as a bit cruel on God's part? Why is he always killing children? When I was a kid, no one would explain this to me.