NonConsent versus Reality

[Marxist]

I posted a similar thread to this one on the General Board but I wanted the writers to read it too.

I was watching the news last night and was shocked watching this story of abuse:

http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/metro/0402/24captive.html

It's a story so bizarre a made-for-TV-movie would do it justice.

A woman is abducted by a truck driver and held against her will for a year. She is rescued after she leaves a note written on the bathroom wall of an interstate rest stop.

The note reads, in part: "Won't let me out. Beating me. This is no joke!"

That's Katina Shaddix's version of events. And police in Laurens County are beginning to believe her story. They have brought aggravated assault charges against the truck driver, Shannon E. Jones, 26, of Delhi, N.Y. And Laurens County sheriff's Sgt. Gerald R. Frazier said the FBI will seek a kidnapping warrant against Jones today.

Jones is in jail awaiting a bond hearing while Shaddix, 24, is in a Dublin hospital, recovering from cuts and bruises and internal injuries she told police were the result of many beatings by Jones over the past year.

"She said their relationship began as a mutual affair, but much later she determined he was abusive, and he has been that way for the last six months," said Frazier. "She'd tried to get away from him, but the man would constantly stay at her side, even to the point of going into the ladies' restroom with her late at night and standing outside her stall."

Shaddix told police that she and Jones stayed on the road and lived in his truck. She said she had left "over 100 messages" in restrooms all over the country similar to the one she left Friday in a rest stop on I-75 in McMinn County, Tenn.

Janitor Binford Aycock found the message on the wall of the women's restroom early Friday night and called 911. The note gave the name of the truck and the trucking company: "Cannon truck 383."

McMinn County police contacted Cannon Express in Springdale, Ark., and tracked the location of Jones' rig through a global positioning system beacon on the truck.

Police in Laurens County found the truck in a rest area. They found Shaddix, bearing fresh bruises, wrapped in a blanket in the truck.

Dean Cannon, president of the company, said Tuesday that Jones was hired on Jan. 4 and that on Jan. 10, Jones and Katina Shaddix signed a company form authorizing her as a rider in Jones's truck.

"We don't want to pass judgment until the facts are out," said Cannon. "But it sounds like a lover's spat rather than a kidnapping to me."

The janitor, Aycock, said when he first read the note he thought it was a joke. "I see a lot of things written on the wall," he said. "But when she wrote 'this is no joke,' I decided to call police."


Worse, it reminded me of an awful story I'd read on Literotica entitled: A Good Little Lot Lizard

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=9612

 

[Whispersecret]

Not all non-consent includes brutality. I hope you weren't trying to draw a correlation between fiction inspiring reality and therefore absolving the perp of his responsibility and free will.

 

[Chicklet]

Fiction Vs. Reality

Hi Guys,

I like reading and writing non-consent. I've read a lot of true crime in my day as well, for instance, the "sex slave case" aka "the girl in the box case" that occured in California many years ago. A young girl was kidnapped on while hitch-hiking to a friend's place is CA and kept hostage for 13 years. Now, I got a lot of grief from my boyfriend while I was reading about this case. He thought that I was getting off on it, since I like to read non-consent erotica. But I think that for the most part, all of us know the difference between reality and fiction. At least, I do, and if I do, there's gotta be at least 5 others out there like me = ) So one day while I was reading some stories I came across one that was almost exactly like this case, in the beginning at least...I felt like it was almost at the point of being "sick" in its similarity...At first I wanted to write the author and chastise him for writing it, but I took a step back and looked at it in the long run. The kidnapper in the true crime case was only acting on his fantasy, he just went too far. Nothing wrong with having the same fantasy and just jotting it down, for the most part I don't think that people writing about this stuff are actually going to go do it! Of course, you won't catch me EVER hitch-hiking anywhere. Hope this made some sense, at least!

Chicklet

 

[peterpan]

I disagree that fantasy is just fantasy.

The statement that people will beleive anything if told it often enough is especially true about what we tell ourselves.

Noone else has a right to dictate what we may and may not think, but we do have a responsibility not brainwash ourselves into beleiving something just because we want to.

Personally, I think fantasies are repugnant if there is enjoyment of somebody elses misery. They are unpleasant if 'it is ok because she deserved it' and dubious if they reek of reality, eg being based around a real person.

How would a woman feel if she discovered some coworker had submitted a rape fantasy obviously written about her. I am sure some form of legal action could be taken because that would not be an ok environment for her anymore.


Apart from that, I want happy endings.

 

[Chicklet]

Hmm...

There is a point of going too far with a fantasy, such as acting on it in the outside world. But I also have fantasies about going in to a work with a gun and blowing my boss's face off, or on a lesser violent degree slapping my mom across the face. But I'm not going to do these things, just think about them. But yes, when we write about them, it does sort of take a different tone...I would never base a character in a story I wrote on a person I knew in real life who might be uncomfortable in the situation the character was in...But I am not everyone, am I? Well, duh, of course not = )

Chicklet

 

[VeraGem]

Apart from that, I want happy endings.

Don't we all? It's too bad life rarely dishes out what we want. My feeling is that for fiction to be believable, it has to mirror life. I can't write "The Adventures of Pollyanna In the Sex Toy Shop," because I wouldn't believe it myself, let alone expect the readers to believe it. People die. People hate. People do sick fucking things to themselves and to each other. When I pick up a book and suddenly find myself in Never-Never Land, I lose my ability to believe what's happening and move on to something else. Even Harry Potter had to confront death and evil - else, in my opinion, the books would have been pure drivel.

That's not to say that I always write sad endings; but, on the other hand, by the votes I'd say a lot of people agree with you, Peter.

For most people, having a fantasy more often than not is completely harmless - however bizarre and strange others may think that fantasy is. Those who act out their antisocial fantasies are called criminals. So hopefully we judge people by their actions, not their thoughts.

 

[karmadog]

I've known a great many women over the years who had rape fantasies.

FANTASIES!!!

That has nothing whatsoever to do with an actual rape. I don't know anyone who is interested in the actual thing.

On the other hand, I was once with a woman who wanted me to slap her face during sex. I couldn't do it. She and I had to part ways. While I do not denigrate her personal twist, it was to violent for me.

What is the point of this? I'm not sure, but there is certainly a difference between fantasy (a spanking) and reality (kidnapping, rape, and beating).

 

[Marxist]

Did anyone here read the story I posted the link to? Read it, it's very short. Then re-read the newspaper story.

The questions I think we as writers have to ask ourselves are these:


Do we have a moral or ethical responsibility to our (mentally healthy or not) readers?

If so, what?

If not, why not?

Would you feel any guilt if you posted a Rape Fantasy and it was acted upon?



I'd really not like to turn this thread into an "It's Only Fantasy" argument. Even if you're just marginally capable of expressing yourself, YOU, as a writer affect your reader, good or bad. If you don't, why bother?

 

[Suzi]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....

I gotta say...there is a difference between the non-consent fantasies and the extremes and brutality of actual reality. Myself, I have pictured myself in non-consent fantasies...HOWEVER...I stupidly went into the "Extremes" section---Y'know? The place that says not for the faint of heart? They are NOT kidding! I read a story that was sexual undertones...but the overtones were unmercifully violent. The descriptions of the actions...what the victim was going through...it hit me so hard I did almost faint (if I stood up, I would have). But that is much closer to the reality of what actually happens. Non-consent is about aggressiveness, restraint....but the reality is much more extreme.

Having belaboured the point of my post lol....I wish to say that our responsibility to our readers is that we give them what they are looking for in the first place. If they don't like it, they don't have to continue reading---it's that simple! (I left the extreme story unfinished--exercised MY free will choice!)

Just my take on the topic....

Suzi

 

[Bob Waters]

Free will

You're leaving out the responsibility of the party committing the crime.

If I write a story of a woman kidnapped and raped and someone goes out and does it, am I guilty? Not unless I'm the guy that went out and did it.

If someone is sick enough to go and do something like this, he's going to do it, whether he reads my story or not.

If, on the other hand, I write a story with detailed instructions on how to commit the crime with out getting caught and this is used by someone to commit said crime then I AM guilty to the same extent that someone selling burglary tools would be guilty if someone used them to break into a house.

I feel we, as authors, have a moral responsibility to a degree, but the publishing of sexual images and stories do NOT cause crimes against women.

I have seen this arguement made 100's of times, but have yet to see a piece of credible evidence linking a crime to a piece of art - be it a photo, painting, song or story. The "I raped her because I looked at dirty pictures" arguement doesn't hold water.

 

[Chicklet]

Guilt Free Literature

"Would you feel any guilt if you posted a Rape Fantasy and it was acted upon? "

I *would* feel guilty if one of my nonconsent fantasies turned short story was acted out in real life with unwilling participants, but in truth I think that there are so many people out there with the same sort of fantasies going through their heads that I wouldn't even be able to tell if it had been my story or not. Millions of people fantasize about rape; I do. But I'm not going to put myself in dangerous situations to help my fantasy become reality. Only someone truly mentally imbalanced that can not tell the difference between right and wrong is going to mistake one of our nonconsent themed stories as something acceptable in the real world. I wouldn't like the reality, but I like my fantasy. Rape is in fact a horrible thing, but nonconsent fantasies are not. I think that the literotica crew does a good job selecting the stories that should not be on this site, and moving them to the extreme section. We're all innocent enough <grin>
I was listening to loveline the other night and caught Drew saying that "women want to be raped by men they'd have sex with anyway." this is true. That's why it works in our stories.

Chicklet

 

[karmadog]

Marxist asks an interesting question. I watched that Bill O'Reilly special last month in which he asked basically the same question. although he asked it mainly of rap stars. I think there is a certain amount of responsibility.

I don't mean that if somebody writes a story about something and someone else goes out and does it that the writer is responsible, but I think that sometimes people are writing stories that are intended to inflame someone's ugly side.

At the same time, I would defend anyone's right to publish it, no matter how disgusting I personally found it.

I wouldn't like to find out how it feels to write something like a rape story then discover that some head case acted it out.

 

[Chicklet]

"At the same time, I would defend anyone's right to publish it, no matter how disgusting I personally found it."

Here, here! (or is it Hear hear? Hear here?)

 

[Axeltheswede]

Non-consent vs reality

Individuals and groups in favor of censorship have been trying for years to establish causal relationships between violent pornography and violent behavior. The Meese Commission, under Tricky Dick, looked high and low and in between. They found none. Apparently, there was no link to be found.

The recent COPA case in the latest example of the same search. Lack of results does not deter people committed to the notion of censorship.

My personal opinion is simple. I think the potential censors are trying to explain the inexplicable. Human behavior is sometimes outrageous. The story at the beginning of this thread is another example. Something or someone must be blamed. The process of finding blame knows no boundaries.

If, by some crazy chance, this goofy truck driver stands up in court and says he was inspired by a story on the web, the resulting shitstorm will rage heavy and hot. And the forces of censorship will go searching again for that illusive link between violent porn and violent behavior.

 

[Whispersecret]

I would not feel guilty at all. I doubt Mr. Harris would be blamed if someone went out and ate a friend because he read about Hannibal Lechter. Only criminals and their lawyers should be interested in shifting the blame (i.e finding "reasons" why they did what they did.) Everyone else should realize where the blame truly belongs.

People have free will, if they exercise it to do evil things, it's really no one's fault but their own.

 

[RisiaSkye]

Re: Fiction Vs. Reality

Hi Guys,

I like reading and writing non-consent. I've read a lot of true crime in my day as well, for instance, the "sex slave case" aka "the girl in the box case" that occured in California many years ago. A young girl was kidnapped on while hitch-hiking to a friend's place is CA and kept hostage for 13 years

I remember that one. The book was called Perfect Victim, wasn't it? That case still pisses me off...there were signed slave contracts and other paraphenalia of BDSM relationships, and the whole thing went a long way toward giving kinky people a really bad rap. Like anything, some people understand the difference between enacting fantasies, and other people abuse those they desire. To mix the two willy-nilly is worse than confusing, it's damaging to a lot of sane, responsible, thoroughly safe and loving people.

You may not want to turn this into a thread about the nature of fantasy, but the fact is that your topic clearly begs that very question: what's the relationship between fantasy and reality? Marxist, as I'm sure you know, there's a world of difference between fantasy and reality. No matter how brutal or explicit, what people post here is fantasy. To correlate fantasy with reality is frankly ridiculous.

Non-Consent stories don't create rapists, any more than the Inquisition created sexual torture. The fact that one resonates with the other is circumstantial evidence of the worst kind, the kind that keeps people from going after the real culprits--the ones who perpetuate violence and exploitation in reality. So, to answer your question, no I don't feel responsible for the behavior of others. As I take responsibility for my own behaviors, so should they be held responsible, and more to the point--accountable-- for their own. I'm not hurting anyone by posting words. They *are* hurting people by abusing them. Therein lies the difference, and it's one I'm more than willing to fight for.

On another note, it's also important to remember that not all non-consent stories are so brutal in nature. Many, in fact, are clearly about control issues in relationships. I don't like to read about forced brutality, as I find it distateful. However, I wouldn't want to limit the rights of others to read whatever they damn well please. If it isn't your cup of tea, don't go there. Just don't be fooled into thinking that all non-consent is cut from the same cloth.

 

[Route66Girl]

Hmmm

Marxist: "Did anyone here read the story I posted the link to? Read it, it's very short. Then re-read the newspaper story.

Okay. Done. Are you thinking that this story may have inspired the crime in question? They are disgustingly similar.

The questions I think we as writers have to ask ourselves are these:


Do we have a moral or ethical responsibility to our (mentally healthy or not) readers?

No.


If so, what?

If not, why not?

Well, first, I should say that it is possible to inspire someone to do something terrible. A writer who says that they have no power to influence is kidding themselves. Words are infinitely powerful. The phrase, "The pen is mightier than the sword" doesn't come from nowhere. The pen can also direct the sword, as well.

But there is no reasonable way to predict who is going to react how. To impose a moral code on ourselves, with the goal of making sure that nothing we write could influence an unstable person, would almost shut us up altogether. Most of the categories on Lit would cease to exist from Non-Consent to BDSM (much of which could be interpreted as Non-Consent), Incest, etc. And not just erotica would take the hit. Quite a bit of the world's literature would be banned.

Our writing doesn't come from nowhere. Most of us glean the events in our stories from life. Rape exists. Rape fantasies exist. People are going to write about it. And the more we write, the more that is said about it, the more it is understood. Therein lies the best tool we have for eventually ridding our society of it.

Would you feel any guilt if you posted a Rape Fantasy and it was acted upon?

I haven't and probably won't post one. But "if"? I would be saddened, but not guilty.

I'd really not like to turn this thread into an "It's Only Fantasy" argument. Even if you're just marginally capable of expressing yourself, YOU, as a writer affect your reader, good or bad. If you don't, why bother?"

Agreed. And I want my readers to feel all warm and fuzzy and errr.. satisfied. But I won't hesitate to let the darker elements into the plot if it's called for.

 

[VeraGem]

Who's actions?

Do we have a moral or ethical responsibility to our (mentally healthy or not) readers?

No. Neither do others in the entertainment industry. Neither do professional athletes. Politicians, on the other hand, have asked to be put into this position of responsibility.

If not, why not?

Because we are not the parents of the world 'village.' Because a free society isn't free if we're all to be held responsible for someone twisting our intent to rationalize their depraved actions.

Would you feel any guilt if you posted a Rape Fantasy and it was acted upon?

I think Frank Zappa said it best to congress way-back-when. I paraphrase: "Sick and twisted people do sick and twisted things; no one knows what will set them off: it could me my tie, or that chair over there." So no, I'd feel no guilt. I'd feel the same horror, sadness and sense of loss I do when I see the news every night. I'd feel rage, too, that some sick and violent freak used chose my work to use as an excuse for a sick and violent act. I wouldn't accept the excuses though - I'd want to see the criminal punished.

If, on the other hand, I write a story with detailed instructions on how to commit the crime without getting caught and this is used by someone to commit said crime then I AM guilty to the same extent that someone selling burglary tools would be guilty if someone used them to break into a house.

A. Conan Doyle would have had a lot of legal trouble publishing his Sherlock Holmes stories if that were the case. It's a good thing the Brits are less likely than we are here in the USA to let criminals and fools use lame excuses. Their last great decision regarding hot coffee litigation was wonderful: "A person ordering a hot beverage should expect it is going to be hot." In contrast, our current culture of non-responsibility is lame and disgusting.

Blaming porn for sex crimes has, in the past, been based on one-way logic. The arguement is: "All sex criminals are obsessed with porn."

**Duh.** (By this I mean it's not a scientific proof - there is no control group.)

-But are all people who read or look at porn sex criminals? Hardly, else I'd be grabbed by one every time I stepped outside my front door.

 

[peterpan]

Did anyone here read the story I posted the link to? Read it, it's very short. Then re-read the newspaper story.

The questions I think we as writers have to ask ourselves are these:


Do we have a moral or ethical responsibility to our (mentally healthy or not) readers?

If so, what?

If not, why not?

Would you feel any guilt if you posted a Rape Fantasy and it was acted upon?



I'd really not like to turn this thread into an "It's Only Fantasy" argument. Even if you're just marginally capable of expressing yourself, YOU, as a writer affect your reader, good or bad. If you don't, why bother?

Umm... the title of NonConsent vs Reality can really only be interpreted as nonconsent fantasy vs reality... then you didn't go and put any clear moot in the fairly long body. Oh well.

ps: no I didn't go and read it. Thanks for warning me not to.

 

[karmadog]

connecting porn/sex crimes

Part, if not most, of the reason conservatives try to prove that porn causes sex crimes dates back to Ted Bundy. Bundy claimed that porn caused him to do his crimes.

Bundy had already been sentenced to death, they argue, so he had nothing to gain. Obviously this is not true. Bundy was a pathological liar. He was trying to cause trouble because he got a thrill out of it.

I love the argument that since those who commit sex crimes have porn, porn must cause the sex crimes. This is the same as the current "Marijuana is a gateway drug" argument. Almost all users of "hard" drugs first used marijuana, therefore, marijuana use leads straight to heroin abuse and the gutter.

These arguments are no more than superstition.

Have you noticed that robins always show up just before spring? Robins cause spring!!!

 

[Chicklet]

And of course if you read Catcher In The Rye you're going to end up murdering someone.

 

[VeraGem]

That, and men with hard penises cause beautiful women to appear...

 

[Quint]

Re: connecting porn/sex crimes

Have you noticed that robins always show up just before spring? Robins cause spring!!!

Yep, a perfect example of post hoc ergo propter hoc, known to everyone who DIDN'T take Logic for their math credit as "before the fact, therefore the cause of the fact." Basically, since it happened before the event in question, it obviously caused it. Much like robins causing spring, or a black cat in your path causing that nuclear warhead to appear right over your house.

We do have a very irresponsible country, don't we? For all the emphasis we supposedly put on individuality, there are a great deal of people who do everything in their power to avoid being the sole person on the stands. Bloody cowards.

I wouldn't feel guilty. Sick and pissed, but never guilty. They only have as much power over you as you let them. I will not claim responsibility for their actions.

 

[Synnerman]

That, and men with hard penises cause beautiful women to appear...

I took you at your word and with a supreme effort towards solid oak I still went to bed alone.

If all are guilty in fact because of fantasy we would be better served to empty our prisons and incarcerate those without fantasy. Our prisons would be less crowded.