Non Consent?

[Flagg]

I know that everyone has their own fantasies about various things and that one of the beauties of literotica is its ability to cater for such a variety of people but no matter how tolerant I try to be I just can't help wincing when I hear about rape stories or worse still read one by accident.

I realise that people can have a completely justifiable fantasy of being dominated and of having no control but surely 'rape' is going too far. I know of people both on this board and in real life who have gone through the atrocious experience of rape and to them the idea of non consent erotica is pretty hard to fathom.
Also the idea that a woman could enjoy rape is ridiculous. It probhably isn't too healthy for men to be lead to believe it either.
My story "Querella's Smile' that was posted today was aimed at presenting a non-consent story that tells a more realistic tale. I'd like to think it might redress the balance a bit if people read of a woman (even such a promiscuous woman as Querella) being raped and not enjoying it in the slightest - Seeing how such an immoral infringement on a person can really tear their souls as well as their body apart.
Sorry to be a preacher and a party pooper but I guess its just how I feel. I'd be interested to hear anyone else's thoughts?

 

[Laurel]

I liked the story very much. It had a fairy-tale ring to it. It isn't the most upbeat story on the site, but it's an interesting read... The idea of a virginal exotic dancer is an intriguing start, and the equating of her virginity with her attractiveness to others - the fact that she was shunned after the rape - stood out for me.

We don't condone rape AT ALL. However, many women do have control fantasies to some degree - this is why the category is called "Nonconsent", not rape. Usually, I try to stock the Literotica Nonconsent category with only stories in which the recipient is to some degree enjoying the domination - anything else goes to Extreme.

However, "Querella's Smile" stayed in nonconsent despite the fact that she clearly did not enjoy the rape, mainly because it was clear that the author did not revel in the rape. It was shown as a tragedy, not a triumph. Thus, I felt it belonged on the site proper. If anyone here seriously objected to it, I'd like to hear from you and why.

Yesterday, we posted a story titled "Badlands" which was about a very faithful married man who loses his loving wife in a moment of weakness. This story isn't a sexy fantasy any more than "Querella's Smile" is, but both were interesting in that they injected a little reality into the mix. They're stories that have sexual overtones, not the stuff to get you hard/wet. I'm interested to hear what you all think about stories such as these.

Personally, I think that, as an erotica site, it's important to show a variety of perspectives (as many as we can without getting booted by our host, that is). Both stories were well-written, and clearly not for an underaged audience. However, some may say that since people come here to fantasize that "bummer" material like those stories doesn't belong here. What do you all think?

 

[Guest]

I've stated my views on rape in erotic fiction many times. Basically, I pretty much agree with you Flagg. In a previous career I helped counsel a lot of women and men who had been raped or sexually abused. I can understand people fantasising about these kinds of situations (it's all about control, the excitement of a taboo and being able to give up responsibilty for your own sexual feelings - someone else is making you act this way). But it deeply disturbs me when these fantasies appear in erotic fiction. I can't help wondering how much damage it would've done to some of our patients to know that people were actually getting off on reading about the very same act of brutality that had stripped away all their self-worth and confidence.

In the Story Ideas section yesterday I noticed a post where someone was asking for stories about Muslim women being raped by the soldiers of an invading force. I mean, WTF?!!?!?? That's like somebody in 1947 asking for more erotica set in the Nazi concentration camps.


Laurel - I think it's excellent that some of Literotica's more recent stories are bringing in other elements from 'mainstream' or 'literary' fiction. Maybe you could have a new category for fiction that deals with sexuality / adult relations but which doesn't necessarily sexually arouse or build to a climax. Maybe it could be called 'realism' or 'mainstream' or something like that.

 

[Guest]

First of all, let me applaud the author of "Badlands", a well written, true depiction of how our actions can impact and destroy our lives with just one moment of weakness. I can empathize with the male character's inner conflict. No, I am not Frank Gifford but I think he and every man can relate to this story.

I find this whole site ripe with this conflict of fun fantasies and the reality of what the truth of certain portrayed actions would be. At times, what I read creates a terrible discord in what I believe is right, but want to believe is only pretend fun.

This site is an iceberg, of which I can see only the tip. When I read posts by women who say they have been assaulted sexually I think, "Why the hell are you here?" It makes me wonder what is going on under the surface of this site and in the lives of the individuals that write. I think they cannot be real and I feel ashamed for being here.

Then, I get involved with writing on the bulletin board or in role-playing or in one of my stories and its so damn exciting! It dredges up emotions that everyday life does not touch.

I'm stepping out of the confessional, for now.

 

[Whispersecret]

Originally posted by Laurel:
Personally, I think that, as an erotica site, it's important to show a variety of perspectives (as many as we can without getting booted by our host, that is). Both stories [Badlands and Querella's Smile] were well-written, and clearly not for an underaged audience. However, some may say that since people come here to fantasize that "bummer" material like those stories doesn't belong here. What do you all think?

Please do continue to post these stories, Laurel. I think it lifts the site to a higher level. (And you know that I'm "all about THAT. <wink wink> ) Perhaps the solution is to create a new category, like Roger suggested. Then people know what they're getting into before they click.

Roger said, "I can understand people fantasising about these kinds of situations (it's all about control, the excitement of a taboo and being able to give up responsibilty for your own sexual feelings - someone else is making you act this way). But it deeply disturbs me when these fantasies appear in erotic fiction. I can't help wondering how much damage it would've done to some of our patients to know that people were actually getting off on reading about the very same act of brutality that had stripped away all their self-worth and confidence."

Roger, I respect you and if you heard my voice, you would hear a person with a questioning, not argumentative tone of voice. I'm confused as to where you expect to see people fantasizing about giving up control during sex, etc, if not in erotic fiction. In their heads, of course, but the other logical place it's going to appear is in written fantasy.

I do not believe that women "ask for it". I don't condone rape in any way. (Although some might argue I do because I wrote a non-consentual story.) I think rapists should be jailed forever. I have never been involved in rape or rape counseling. But I enjoy reading non-consent fiction, so my point of view is going to be influenced by different things.

I concede that with your background, Roger, you are better able to judge this than I am, however, aren't rape victims already aware that people get off on rape fantasies? (In fact, I remember a thread by someone who was raped, who got off herself on such stuff.)

I'm not trying to justify rape fiction because some rape victims like it. I'm just saying that I think people KNOW there are a zillion different things that turn people on and some of them are morally repugnant.

After all, many of these same arguments could also be said about incest, but why isn't there a sense of outrage about those stories?

 

[Laurel]

I see it this way: when I'm watching a really good action thriller which ends with the good guy killing the bad guy, I'm not horrified but happy & relieved. Does this mean I condone murder? Of course not! It's fantasy - it's simplified reality.

I had a woman write to me very upset that we would have a Nonconsent section (I get these letters periodically, aimed at nonconsent, incest, gay, fetish, you name a category...). She wrote "You should at least put some sort of warning at the category header, so that people will know that Rape is Bad!" I'm sorry, but if you've gotten this far in your life and you still don't realize that rape is wrong then I can't help you. Like I've always said, I expect visitors here to be ADULTS. The whole "monkey-see, monkey-do" thing is bogus... Rape stories DO NOT create rapists. Rape and murder existed long before the written word. While I'd like to believe that it's that simple - get rid of all the rape, murder, and racism on TV and we'll all live together in harmony - that isn't the case, my friends. I could put a big "Warning: Rape is BAD!" message on the front of the section, but what good would that do? Rapists know what they do is wrong - that's part of the thrill.

In fact, rape fantasies here can be cathartic both for the reader and the writer. Women who have fantasies about domination aren't idiots - they KNOW the difference between real-life rape and a "being taken" fantasy. Like High Peaks mentioned, these stories "dredge up emotions that everyday life does not touch", in the same way that roller coasters enable us to feel speeds and g-forces we don't normally reach in real life, and movies show us parts of life we will never experience.

As far as rape victims accidentally "stumbling" upon a rape fantasy, if they choose to either click on a story that has the nonconsent category next to it or to go peruse the section that is clearly labeled "nonconsent", then that's their problem, not mine. We cannot babysit our readers. As adults, you are expected to know what you can and cannot handle. There's a category or two that I don't enjoy reading, so I don't click on it. Real simple.

In short, I respect the intelligence of the women and men who come to this site. I trust that you come here to fantasize, since we specifically state on our front page that this site is dedicated to "sexual FANTASIES". I expect you all to know that what you read here is fiction, and not representative of sexual reality. It's your responsibility as an intelligent adult to read the stories and enjoy them with the knowledge that they ARE fantasies and not a guide for how to live your sexual life.

 

[Guest]

Whisper & Laurel - my post on rape in erotica wasn't any kind of attempt to influence the direction of Literotica or the people who write or read non-consent stories (apart from whoever posted the 'Muslim Woman Being Raped' topic. I'm sure most people reading that strand would agree it's fairly insensitive to suggest something like that so close to the horrors that happened in Romania). All I was trying to do was show why I personally don't like these stories, and why I avoid them.

I was only expressing my own personal feelings about an issue. I wasn't trying to point any fingers at anyone else.

I agree we're all adults and it's up to us to choose what we want to read and what we don't want to read when we come to this site.

If anyone is disgusted or offended by stories about water sports they should avoid my story about watersports. If people are uncomfortable with stories involving control or domination, then there are a couple of my stories they should avoid.

The idea of non-consent erotic stories tends to disturb me, so I avoid them. I'm not going to tell anyone else to avoid them, or not write them or not post them on their site.

I'm in no way qualified to talk with any authority about rape or abuse. I've never experienced either of these. I've worked with some of the victims and seen how their lives have been affected. That's my only experience of it but it's left a lasting impression on me and that's why I'm uncomfortable with rape in erotic fiction. It's the only reason I've not read 'Hostile Takeover', Whisper. I'm sure it's an excellent, well-written story.

Laurel - I know you must get bombarded with people telling you how they think you should run your site, how you should change this or do that. It must be so frustrating when you're spending so much of your time working on such a big project and all you ever seem to get back is criticisms or "helpful suggestions" about how to "improve" the site.
I can see why you sometimes get pissed off.

But I'm not one of these people. I don't want you to change Literotica at all. I love it as it is.

Now, when are we having this party for my 300th post?



Rog

 

[Laurel]

I understand your positio, and totally support your freedom to post your views on anything. Nowhere in your post did you say those stories SHOULDN'T be posted, only that you thought them distasteful. That's perfectly acceptable. I was only heading off the inevitable pro-censorship poster, and wanted you to understand where I'm coming from.

As for the party.. how about NOW? *pops the cork and pours the champagne...*

 

[Guest]

God, I hope that whole debate DOESN'T rear it's ugly head again. I've already sat through it once on Dixon's 'Where Do You Draw The Line' strand (in a different incarnation, of course).

Anyway. Here's to Literotica and all who sail in her. Slange! (Gaelic for 'Cheers!' but I don't know how to spell it.)

Heh-heh! It's funny the way the bubbles seem to go up your nose, isn't it?

 

[RonG]

While I can understand on an artistic level the freedom/interest in abduction or rape stories but at a gut-feel level it just does not feel right. Here in Indiana right now, we have a 19 year old college student who appears to have been abducted while she was out cycling this week. No trace of her and her bike was found 10 miles away. I haven't seen the news today but it doesn't look good. This hits me hard when I read some of the posts that think this is somewhat erotic or some of the stories that have similar tones. I would have a hard time living with myself if I wrote such a story on a fantasy level and then one sick individual goes out and acts on the idea.

Don't mean to add guilt to those who write these stories but at some point we need to decide if the social value of some ideas is worth less than the damage they may create. I know we can't censor Martin Scorcese over Taxi Driver because of John Hinckley but creativity in art is supposed to be about finding new ways to highlight the human condition, not inspire the mentally disturbed to believe that their bad ideas are held by some acceptable amount of other people.

Sorry to be such a downer on a party night but my status as a lapsed Catholic allows me to be a guilt-donor (one pint every 56 days).
I guess one reason I gravitate to this site is that the overwhelming amount of conversation and writing is in a positive vein or for just plain fun. The coding of stories as extreme or NC is very welcome to those who like to stay on the pleasant side of things and avoid what doesn't fit. If enough of the visitors want BB posts on these ideas (and enough don't), maybe a BB forum to split it out like the story index would be a good thing.

 

[Casey13]

Sorry, folks, but I really don't get this thread.

Whispersecret's story had a lengthy disclaimer at the beginning stating the sensitive nature of the story and its contents. So, if you can't handle that sort of thing then you shouldn't read it.

I, too, was a rape crisis counselor for a number of years, but I enjoyed the story nonetheless. That fact doesn't make me any less sensitive to the plight of a rape victim. I just appreciate well written stories of any kind.

Heck, I used to arrange my college class schedule to follow the Luke and Laura saga on General Hospital. That was also a rape-turned-romance story. Or did we choose to forget that? Now their marriage is considered a classic soap moment.

There's nothing wrong with having a fantasy that deals with non-consentual sex. Many of us have had that fantasy over the years. It's symbolic of losing control over ones destiny, and it's often a fantasy experienced by control freaks (myself included).

If someone chooses to use that scenario as a model for their real-life behavior, they could find it in any number of other media. There are thousands of films out there which contain scenes involving rape. "A Clockwork Orange" comes to mind, just to name a classic. There are any number of "Biker Chicks in Prison" videos available at your neighborhood video store. Each one has at least 4-5 rape scenes (*blushes at the fact she's actually watched one or two on Cinemax*) Renting a video takes far less intelligence and effort than logging in on a computer and reading a lengthy story.

So, my feeling is, if you don't like it don't read it. If you don't like the fact that the site publishes it, then don't visit the site any more.

It's called your right to choose.

[This message has been edited by casey13 (edited 06-09-2000).]

 

[Laurel]

Amen and hallelujah. If remove all rape, murder and sex from popular culture, the sick and twisted will become "inspired" by nursery rhymes and commercial jingles. Manson found inspiration in the White Album - should we ban the Beatles? Let's put the responsibility where it belongs - on the perpetrators of the crime.

 

[Laurel]

Heh-heh! It's funny the way the bubbles seem to go up your nose, isn't it?

Ooh! It's kinda nice...makes me sneeze, though...

 

[RonG]

I certainly don't advocate censorship. The last thing we need is to have the world of the arts turn into Barney's Big Adventure.

However, my question is for authors of abduction or rape stories: If some deranged individual is inspired to commit a violent crime due in some part to your story, do you feel some sense of remorse? I personally would and since I and my wife don't happen to enjoy this fantasy, we don't go there. That shouldn't stop anyone else if they enjoy it and don't hurt anyone else.

I guess the curiosity on my part is the argument that creators have intellectual property rights to profit from their stories and ideas but have no responsibility for any consequences if they are misused. This is strictly a philosophical argument since most case law is pretty straightforward and by no means does the existence of these ideas absolve any individual from being responsible for their own actions. I am just wondering if our authors are capable of detaching themselves that much from their creations.

 

[Laurel]

I certainly don't advocate censorship. The last thing we need is to have the world of the arts turn into Barney's Big Adventure.

Now, there's an image to curl your hair!

If some deranged individual is inspired to commit a violent crime due in some part to your story, do you feel some sense of remorse?

Should The Beatles feel remorse and shame for the murders committed by the Manson Family?

I guess the curiosity on my part is the argument that creators have intellectual property rights to profit from their stories and ideas but have no responsibility for any consequences if they are misused.

See, I don't see art - be it stories or movies or whatever - as a tangible weapon like a gun, to be "used" for either "good" or "evil" purposes. Art is mind candy - something to challenge your perception of things.

I'm not a writer, but I don't think that most people write in hopes that millions will blindly follow what they write to the letter. I think most artists assume that their work will be viewed critically by intelligent, rational people.

It comes down to this: I fully believe that criminals should be held 100% accountable for their actions. The second we start giving them excuses - "he had a bad childhood", "he was a 'victim' of pornography'", etc. etc. - then we're saying that there are acceptable reasons for committing crimes. We're saying it's OKAY for him to rape because he read a rape story. As far as I'm concerned, there is no excuse for rape, or cold-blooded murder, or intentionally causing harm to another human being.

There are millions of people who've read books or watched movies with scenes depicting rape to some degree (how about "Gone With The Wind", where Clark Gable carries Vivien Leigh kicking and screaming up to the bedroom?). There are millions of people who watch movies with violent crimes carried out in them. Somehow, the vast majority manage to get through a day without raping or killing. Amazing, isn't it?

Human beings are intelligent animals. Criminals are crafty devils. I remember as a kid watching some afternoon talk show in which some ex-rapist claimed that "pornography" made him rape, but now that he "found the Lord" he was saved. And the audience was applauding! Even as a kid I was shocked at how easy it was to take the heat off yoursef. Blame porno, accept the Lord, and everyone carries you away in a parade, forgetting the fact that you've destroyed some woman's life.

The criminal is responsible - not books, not TV, not movies. Just because we find something distasteful does not mean that it's evil or harmful. We need to stop trying to demonize that which we personally dislike and concentrate our anger on the perpetrators of crime.

I'm not a big fan of hardcore rape stories - I don't find other people's pain and misery to be very sexy. But I do find the idea of being "taken" by a man appealing, in a theoretical sort of way. Many women do. Does this mean we want to be raped? Hell no. Many men find rape stories exciting - men who are loving fathers, brothers, teachers... Does this mean they're potential rapists? Hell no.

Criminals commit crimes because they're sick - all the flimsy excuses they make after the fact are just that: flimsy excuses. The rest of us are intelligent and sane enough to enjoy the roller-coaster of emotions that wild fantasies provide before going back to our "real" lives. Fantasy ain't reality.

 

[Whispersecret]

This is going to sound incredibly snotty and maybe even defensive, but I want to try to be succinct.

In a nutshell, I don't blame guns or their manufacturers for murders committed with them; I blame the murderers. I don't blame cigarettes for cancer; I blame the people who smoked them. I don't blame distilleries for the tragic results of people driving drunk; I blame the irresponsible drunks.

So, I don't feel any guilt for a rape commited after a rapist reads my story. I believe that humans have free will and the responsibility for evil/hurtful actions should lie with the person who commits them. Our society is, in my opinion, going to far in laying blame on the doorsteps of those who don't deserve it, or avoiding it completely. "I was temporarily insane." "I'm deathly afraid of homosexuals, that's why I beat the fag to death." "McDonalds should have warned me the coffee was hot." "I'm not clumsy! That crack in the sidewalk made me trip! The city owes me for my pain and suffering and my medical bills." ETC.

ALso, I have to point out that I haven't mane any profit from my non-consent story. However, even if it did make money in the future, and it might, I still wouldn't feel any guilt.

 

[Whispersecret]

Hey, didn't see Laurel's post until after I'd posted my own reply. O Mistress, we agree again...what's goin' on???

 

[RonG]

To Laurel and Whispersecret: I absolutely agree that individuals are totally responsible for their own actions and excuse making gets a little old <kneeling and bowing>.

However, I do have a bit of an issue with ideas being mind candy - debate and argument are meant to influence other peoples' thinking and is healthy. Whether it is Upton Sinclair writing The Jungle or Thomas Paine with Common Sense, words have always had the ability to change behavior. The free will comes in deciding whether one agrees or not. It is not a stretch to say that the more frequently that a person predisposed to a criminal act sees the act described, and possibly romanticized, that they will act on it as less abhorrent than if it was universally scorned. Of course, rape is a plot device that shows up in GWTW or Streetcar Named Desire, but when it is all said and done it happens as part of an overall tragedy.

The Beatles should not feel any guilt - they wrote a song about an amusement park ride and some crazy people came up with a twisted interpretation to suit their own purposes. I tend to believe that criminals tend to do this a lot - they were going to do something wrong and were just looking for something to call inspiration. But I was just asking about the theoretical example of ". . . if a story was the impetus for a crime, would it bother you?"

The candor of both of you is great. I appreciate your responses. I guess it comes down to reasonable minds differing. If the censorship police ever come around, I will still join the protesters on your behalf to protect your right to publish such stories, even though they aren't my cup of tea. I did get removed from a school board meeting once defending Mark Twain's work and his web site isn't nearly as cool and, from what I can tell, he wasn't nearly as indulgent with the masses as the munificent Laurel.


I guess this is one of those times where I remember this is really an adult site - an opportunity for real adult thinking and a welcome diversion. This isn't the lightest topic but one worthy of deep consideration. Thanks!

 

[Laurel]

O Mistress, we agree again...what's goin' on???

I think that's twice in the last week - what the heck is going on!? People are going to start talking, you know...

However, I do have a bit of an issue with ideas being mind candy - debate and argument are meant to influence other peoples' thinking and is healthy.

Ah, I definitely agree. But if I were an author who wrote a book trying to convince all women to start binding their feet again, and some women chose to do so after reading my book, it is still THEIR decision - not mine. They made the choice - I didn't make it for them.

I don't think we're too far off in our views, RonG (by the way, I enjoy your work!). I appreciate that you support freedom of expression, without which we wouldn't be having this conversation.

My freedom to express my ideas does not mean that anyone has to advocate them. In fact, they are free to attack, critique, nit-pick, shun... I had a discussion with a friend of mine recently about talk show host "Dr." Laura and her anti-gay stance. He was livid that the "pro-gay extremists" would try to take "her freedom of speech away". What I attempted to point out to him (with little success) that freedom of speech does NOT mean we all get to have our own television show. If the KKK wanted to have an afternoon talk show, how many sponsors would like up to buy ads on that hour? They still - like Dr. Laura, like me and you - have the right to speak. But advertisers don't have to support it, and neither do viewers.

By not reading rape stories and posting your dislike of the genre, you're sending out a message that it's not acceptable for you. You're not interfering with anyone else's free speech - in fact, you're exercising your own rights. I applaud the way in which you've stated your case, and your willingness to allow the other side its time. Rock on, brotha Ron...

 

[Whispersecret]

RonG, I have very much enjoyed debating this with you. I appreciate being able to talk about this without the thread becoming one of cross-armed rigid stances and righteous statements. I do see your point about dulling the horror by romanticizing it, but am not swayed to your way of thinking, even so.

I thank you for lumping me indirectly together with Sinclair and Paine, though. Heh heh. I never thought of my silly tale as something that would ever be compared with the likes of that. <winks>

[This message has been edited by whispersecret (edited 06-10-2000).]

 

[Deborah]

Well, this is a rather interesting thread. I mostly agree with Laurel and Whispersecret so I won't belabor the points they made.

Since I have written several "nonconsent" stories myself, I would just add this ...

I do believe the most widely read story is "the bible." In that story we have such passages as Judges 19 where a man's concubine is raped by a gang of men. So the man's response to the incident is to cut up his concubine into twelve pieces with a knife.

Then in 1 Samuel 18 you have the episode where King Saul persuaded David to go out and obtain the foreskins of 100 Phillistines. David and his men go out and whack (in more ways than one) 200 Phillistines and bring back their foreskins for Saul, who gives David his daughter Michal to wed. What do you call that, bartering some dick for pussy?

No wonder there is so much weird shit going on. People are reading the bible.

Oh yeah, and what about the song and video "Goodbye Earl" by the Dixie Chicks? Thousands of women who get slapped around have been bashing in heads with a can of black-eyed peas and stuffing corpses in trunks to be dumped off in the woods.

Talking about old bald guys, is that Dennis Franz (Earl in the video) a doll or what? I can't watch that video without losing it.

 

[Guest]

Hey, Debs. Got some old 'Kojak' videos you might like to borrow. They're HOT!!!

I'd just like to clarify my position on all this and then remain silent on the subject for e'er more:

I don't know whether or not criminals draw "inspiration" from the books they read, the films they see, the songs they hear or whatever. I kind of doubt it. But even if they do, I don't care. I think that every adult should take responsibility for their own actions. If some 18 year-old shoots a grocery-store worker in the face, claiming he only did it 'cause his pals told him guns were cool and that this was the quickest way to make cash, he'd still be convicted of the crime. He pulled the trigger. He made the choice. Why's it any different if he's blaming it on some book? JD Salinger wasn't responsible for John Lennon's death, Mark Chapman was.

Like Whisper says, the blame culture is getting way out of control, especially in the US. I remember reading about a woman taking some company to court 'cause it didn't say on their chocolate bar wrappers that eating lots of chocolate makes you fat.

I expect there's a bunch of lawyers making a pile of money off the back of all this blame.

The "good, right, upstanding people" of the West are so scared of sex that they just love any opportunity to point a finger at erotica or pornography - blaming it for all Society's ills. It gets me mad.

So, anyway - that's all that out the way. It's not the effects on criminals that bothers me about rape in erotic fiction. And I keep stressing the point, it's only erotica I'm talking about.

I'm not offended by rape or sexual abuse in general fiction, films or on tv shows, as long as it's handled in a responsible way.

I found that scene with Tra-La-La in 'Last Exit To Brooklyn' utterly devastating to watch but I still thought it was an excellent film and I'll probably watch it again some day.

I personally just don't like it when rape is portrayed as fun and sexy (and I'm not talking about "power games" or domination here). I want erotica to be sexually arousing. I personally can't equate "sexually arousing" with "rape". I know plenty of other people do. That's fine.

Maybe it's just 'cause of my previous career in nursing (me imagining what my patients would think of me). Or maybe I'm scared of finding out that I actually enjoy some of those fantasies. Or maybe it's 'cause I'm British. I notice Flagg is, too. The concept of 'Freedom Of Speech' isn't a strong part of our culture. We're used to censorship laws that are much stricter than pretty much anywhere else in Europe - possibly the whole of the West. You're not even allowed to show an erection in a British film, nevermind penetration (unless it's in an "art movie" - "common people" don't go to see them 'cause of the sub-titles).

Anyway - hope that clears my position:

*Censorship - BAD!
*Rape in Erotica - enjoyable for some, just not for me.
*Balding older men - not for me but that rascal, Deborah, can't get enough of 'em.

rog

 

[Guest]

Actually, to be honest - I don't really know what I think. I don't really have rigid viewpoints on things. I change my mind about stuff all the time. (That's why I'm hopeless in arguments - I spend all my time trying to see things from both sides instead of shouting and shaking my fists and all that stuff you're supposed to do.)

At the moment I think I believe pretty much what I've written above.

 

[Lasher]

I'm sorry I came to this thread so late. And, like deborah said, I won't belabor the point to much further, her and Laurel and Whispersecret have already discussed views on this subject that agree with my own.

I would, however, like to take a look at something RonG said up above.

...debate and argument are meant to influence other peoples' thinking and is healthy. Whether it is Upton Sinclair writing The Jungle or Thomas Paine with Common Sense, words have always had the ability to change behavior. The free will comes in deciding whether one agrees or not.

It's an excellent point he makes, but it just doesn't apply to this situation. I don't think that anyone who's posted a Nonconsent story here has been arguing or debating the merits of Rape. No one is trying to convince people in the manner of a great orator such as Paine, "Give me Rape, or Give me death".

There's no doubt that the written word is a powerful tool, and in it's finest forms can be overwhelmingly persuasive. That's just not the type of situation we're dealing with here.

 

[RonG]

I agree that, at least as near as I can tell, no one is intentionally pushing rape as the purpose of their writing. My point went to the unintended consequences due to having a diverse audience. The majority of people who come here seem to do so for fun & fantasy. However it is clear from some postings that some people come here for instruction or to change their or someone else's behavior. We have all kinds of postings on the different sex acts that are either being encouraged or explored by others. I have seen requests for stories to encourage "my spouse/gf/dog" to participate in new activities so clearly someone uses these stories to attempt to influence themselves or others.

We in the US have freedom of speech based on protecting the speaker provided the intention of the speech is to provoke debate and lawful action. This is why art is often allowed to portray illegal acts - the intention of the writer, film-maker,etc is to provoke debate, not rape (at least when some locals drag them into court). Hence, our authors and web site are not breaking any laws and are constitutionally protected. My point was to the unintended consequences - the author writes a story geared towards a fantasy and some part of the audience reads it as a call to action.

The example often cited legally in this country about what is not protected is the old saw about you can't cry "Fire!" in a crowded theater. The intention is clearly to do harm without any thought to spark debate. I was just borrowing on Flagg's original post if some non-consent stories were the equivalent of crying "F*** Her! in a dimly lit porn theater."