No words

[rgraham666]

I haven't thought of them as human since 9/11. I hesitate to use animals, since I feel that's a slight to animals who don't normally kill for no reason at all. There is a reason they keep their identites secret and it has little to do with the U.S. government hunting them down. It seems any decent person would gladly turn them in to whatever authority was nearby if they knew who they were or where they were hiding. How anyone could do some of the things AQ sanctions is beyond mortal ken. Perhaps a sociopath could understand.

-Colly

-Colly

Colleen, I share your sadness.

However, be very, very careful. The people that did this horrid deed are entirely human.

Human behaviour covers a wide range from the brutality of Stalin, Pol Pot and Hitler to the transcedent goodness of Jesus Christ, Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela.

The second that you exclude any group of people from humanity is the second you become less human yourself.

And perhaps a little perspective here would be in order. Since the beginning of the '70s, one thousand combatants and five thousand civilians have died every day. That doesn't include horrors like Cambodia and Rwanda.

But we in The West never cared because in the words of The Onion it was "6,000 Brown People Dead Somewhere".

As long as it's 'Us and Them' these horrors will continue.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Colleen, I share your sadness.

However, be very, very careful. The people that did this horrid deed are entirely human.

Human behaviour covers a wide range from the brutality of Stalin, Pol Pot and Hitler to the transcedent goodness of Jesus Christ, Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela.

The second that you exclude any group of people from humanity is the second you become less human yourself.

And perhaps a little perspective here would be in order. Since the beginning of the '70s, one thousand combatants and five thousand civilians have died every day. That doesn't include horrors like Cambodia and Rwanda.

But we in The West never cared because in the words of The Onion it was "6,000 Brown People Dead Somewhere".

As long as it's 'Us and Them' these horrors will continue.

Hun,

If you can't make a distinction between us and them, when them are beheading folks, then I pity you. I don't hold all Muslims, all Arabs, or all anything else responsible, but when it comes to these acts and their perpatrators I am absolutely able to make an us and them distinction.

Us: Humanity

Them: Those who have rejected their humanity.

And yes, I am totally capable of saying shooting them down like rabid dogs whenever they can be located is totaly appropriate, least anyone have any questions of how much I hate them. At the same time, applying that is so damned hard because deciding who "they" are is so humanly fallible.

-Colly

 

[ABSTRUSE]

Colleen, I share your sadness.

However, be very, very careful. The people that did this horrid deed are entirely human.

Human behaviour covers a wide range from the brutality of Stalin, Pol Pot and Hitler to the transcedent goodness of Jesus Christ, Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela.

The second that you exclude any group of people from humanity is the second you become less human yourself.

And perhaps a little perspective here would be in order. Since the beginning of the '70s, one thousand combatants and five thousand civilians have died every day. That doesn't include horrors like Cambodia and Rwanda.

But we in The West never cared because in the words of The Onion it was "6,000 Brown People Dead Somewhere".
As long as it's 'Us and Them' these horrors will continue.

You make a very good point RG, we lower ourselves to their level. I'm glad you mentioned the slaughter of others in the world, we did nothing when Pol Pot killed so many, he had nothing to offer us, we did nothing in Rwanda, how many people were maimed by having their hands cut off, and again we did nothing, Rwanda had nothing we wanted. We ignore S. America which baffles me because they have off shore oil, or do we have our hands on that and I missed the memo?
I do agree with Colly as far as us gettiing the hell out of there, either that or just let loose on them with all the suppossed force and technology we have. Who can we trust over there? We are like sitting ducks as long as the insurgents are hidden and protected. After viewing the slaughter of Mr. Berg, if this is any indication of the mentallity of these people, no one is safe.

~A~

 

[rgraham666]

The only thing I can think of to post now is that little blurb of Nietschze's

Beware when you battle monsters,
Lest you become a monster.
And as you gaze into the abyss,
the abyss gazes also,
into you.

 

[Xelebes]

Hun,

If you can't make a distinction between us and them, when them are beheading folks, then I pity you. I don't hold all Muslims, all Arabs, or all anything else responsible, but when it comes to these acts and their perpatrators I am absolutely able to make an us and them distinction.

Us: Humanity

Them: Those who have rejected their humanity.

And yes, I am totally capable of saying shooting them down like rabid dogs whenever they can be located is totaly appropriate, least anyone have any questions of how much I hate them. At the same time, applying that is so damned hard because deciding who "they" are is so humanly fallible.

-Colly

I dislike your dichotomy. Once we hunt them down, we lose our humanity and we get absolutely nowhere except further and further from humanity. Look at Israel and Palestine for instance. Neither side lacks blood on their hands and are still waging war with each other.

 

[shereads]

I do agree with Colly as far as us gettiing the hell out of there, either that or just let loose on them with all the suppossed force and technology we have. Who can we trust over there? We are like sitting ducks as long as the insurgents are hidden and protected. After viewing the slaughter of Mr. Berg, if this is any indication of the mentallity of these people, no one is safe.

~A~

There are nuclear weapons in Pakistan and India and probably in Israel, and Pakistan is increasingly unstable because their government supports us but their people are angry about the Iraq invasion...We've stirred up a hornet's nest and I can't imagine it staying contained if we leave and allow a civil war. I can't see an answer.

 

[CharleyH]

Ok - Yes, this is horrible. And although I joked on a seperate thread, so was the raping, torturing and murdering of Iraqi's who were held in prison, by Americans. Anyone here shed a tear for the multitude of them?

Nope - wanting justice, just like them. All seems the same to me.

Edit: Just saw a word.
Beheading? The semantics of death and torture. Beheading is relatively swift. Rape and torture and then killing? I don't know, your quess is as good as mine, though there does seem to be a little indication of the long lasting impact of such activities on on children, on those in camp during WWII by both Germany, and the much less talked about Japan.

 

[shereads]

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Beware when you battle monsters,
Lest you become a monster.
And as you gaze into the abyss,
the abyss gazes also,
into you.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From last night's Washington Post:

According to a clerk at Baghdad's Al Fanar Hotel, on
the east bank of the Tigris River, Berg checked out on April 10.

Berg said he was going home, the clerk said, and walked down Saddoun Street, a major artery, because the road was closed to vehicular traffic. He left behind in his room a yellowed and folded page from a book by Jon Burmeister, a South African writer of thrillers who died in 2001.

The page carries a short prose poem titled "The War That Wasn't." It describes a man named Jericho, who is awakened by machine-gun fire, "his heart hammering
thunderously against the ribcage as though trying to escape."

The poem ends: "What the hell was happening? God knows, he thought. But it seemed clear that the war had arrived -- the war that wasn't coming here . . ."

 

[KarenAM]

I want to write, but I cannot find words anymore. I want to tell stories about love and the triumph of the human spirit, but when I look around me I don't see that spirit. Instead I see mad dogs, frothing, tearing at the meat of what were once little children, each with a mother and a father. I see them smiling as they humiliate a man, and I see them shrieking with joy as they hold up a disembodied head.

For what? For God? George Bush prays to God, claims that God guides him. Osama bin Laden prays also, claims the same thing.

The blood flows, and the flesh is torn, and madness reigns.

And I cannot find words anymore...

 

[shereads]

Doc, I agree with everything you've said, and, believe me, I have also been absolutely horrified by what happened.

However, I must just say this... the reason why I, personally, "carry on, business as usual" is because, if I don't, if I stop my normal life, if I change who I am, if I bow down and let them beat me, they have won. They will not win.

I have seen and experienced many atrocities in my time. I remember when the IRA were at the height of their activity, and I remember watching the news footage of the two off duty police officers who happened to get themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time. They inadvertantly got lost and drove into the midst of an IRA funeral procession. Their car was set upon by the angry mob and they were dragged from their car, stipped and beaten, all of this was captured on film. They were then dragged away and executed. Again, there is footage of this. It was absolutely horrific. That was a crime of supposed reprisal.

There can be no excuse for crimes like this, there is no excuse. It is an act of extreme lowly cowardice.

It has affected me, I am a caring, loving human being, how can it not affect me? I have shed tears for Nick Berg. But, as I said above, I will not let it beat me. I think, here in the UK especially, we have lived with terrorism for a long time, and we have had it drummed into us to try and lead our lives as normally as possible. Terrorists are out to cause maximum destruction to the lives of the maximum number of people. We can't let them do that. But, also, we cannot forget what they have done. We will never forget.

Lou

We can't afford to forget that every culture is capable of sickening atrocities. The My Lai massacre was ours. When I was a kid, I thought My Lai was a few moments of panic and rage and over with. Only later did I learn that it took place over a period of several hours, with some soldiers begging others not to bayonet babies and pregnant women. To the last child, seen hiding in the grass by a helicopter pilot who watched helplessly as she was discovered and shot while she crouched on the ground...The people who did that weren't unrecognizable monsters. They were our fathers and brothers and sons, gone mad, after living in madness for months. In the middle east and in west africa and in Bosnia, generations of children have been born into war and lived in blood and it's as normal to them as watchiing TV is to us.

I'm not excusing them. There's no excuse for any of us. I don't know what we are.

But I do know that our hatred of the people who attacked us on 9/ll was mis-directed to bombed children in Iraq, and that 90% of the people who died in Fellujah were civilians and unarmed according to the Red Cross. It's only different because we didn't have to see their faces and hear them scream.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I’m pretty sure my reaction to this has to do with my own particular psychology. I have real problems with violence inflicted against helpless people, no matter who they are. It does something to me. Probably that’s why the prison pictures got to me as well. (Which is pretty weird since I’m into BDSM. Or maybe that has something to do with it? Some kind of acting out the thing that frightens you the most?)

As terrible as 9/11 was, it was very remote control and mechanical (aside from whatever went on in the hijacked planes before the crashes). It was almost like dropping bombs from the air on people you never had to see. The Berg execution was something else. Even in the case of Daniel Pearl, he was shot first. It takes a special kind of psychopath to use a knife in cold blood.

Amicus, I appreciate your restraint, but I really can’t see how anyone can still believe we have the slightest chance of establishing any sort of freedom over there among people who so obviously detest the very idea. I heard Bush talking about the ‘enemies of freedom’ on the radio, and the thought struck me that, hell, these people don’t need freedom. Too much freedom is the problem. They have freedom to kidnap and kill and do whatever the hell they want. What they need is some repression.

---dr.M.

 

[shereads]

38% of respondents to our local CBS affiliate's online poll have answered "yes," to the question of whether they would watch the beheading of Nick Berg if it were shown on American television.

 

[Guest]

38% of respondents to our local CBS affiliate's online poll have answered "yes," to the question of whether they would watch the beheading of Nick Berg if it were shown on American television.

I know some people in this thread have mentioned that they have seen it. But, why? Why would anyone want to watch that?

I've seen a couple of stills of it, prior to his murder, on the BBC TV news. There is no way I could bring myself to watch it. It sickens me. But, I guess people have their own reasons.



Lou

 

[shereads]

Re: For what it is worth

When our citizens were killed, dragged through the streets, and mutilated, the Iraqi citizens did not proclaim how bad it was, how ashamed the people of their country were. It was business as usual.... Are the Iraqi people, government, etc., investigating the actions of the 5 cowards]

That's not really true, Mtn. There was coverage of the reaction among ordinary people in Baghdad to the mutilation of those bodies. It didn't get a lot of coverage here, because none of us particularly want to hear what life is like for ordinary Iraqis. They were victims of repression before, and now they are victims of anarchy and terrorists who have crossed their borders in answer to the challenge, "Bring it on." Moreover, there are still Iraqis living without electricity and telephone communications. Most of them probably wonder what's going on.

There is no Iraqi government; we dismantled it, remember? We are it. We, and the people we chose for the interim government, are all the law and order Iraq has.

 

[shereads]

Colleen..who started the thread...and the usual suspects, Dr. Mabeuse, Shereads...et al.....

It is a healthy thing...I propose...that difficult issues are discussed from all directions...by people from all walks of life who think and write their thoughts for others to share and comment on.

I have the leisure to contribute to a small weekly newspaper in the local area. In the past few weeks and months I have had the pleasure to watch Concerts and Plays and athletic contests and awards ceremonies at three different level schools from Kindergarten to Senior High.

I am not asked to contribute articles on National or International issues...indeed, I shy away from any political, ethical or moral statements. However, after 40 years in the News business, some in major market areas...in Radio, Tv and Print, I still have the urge to weigh in on various issues. I appreciate the existence of this forum for that reason.

In addition to the events mentioned above...there has been a school lockdown due to a gun threat on campus, an evacuation due to a bomb threat at a school, several automobile accidents involving high school kids and the neverending police file of minor and major incidents.

This weeks issue was put to bed yesterday...so I have a day or so to think of other things than baseball and softball and the ROTC awards banquet.

As I mused, I thought perhaps a soft statement that, 'life goes on in a small town...' might lighten the burden many feel over recent horrific events in the middle east.

It is only partly true, that there are, 'no words' for the current hot items of abuse and atrocity that lead the news. We must have words and we must seek understanding. Many contributors to this forum have offered avenues of thought, some very well done, some with great insight, some not.

While watching a History Channel program on "D Day, June 6th, 1944" a day or so ago, I had rather an awakening to a general thought about American involvement in the Middle East.

In my mind, it was fairly well entrenched that the 'Allies' of World War 2, put a 'million' men on the beaches of Normandy on that June morning.

I was wrong, it was 175,000 men, that first day and do you know what? It was the Americans, the Brits and the Canadians. And do you know what else? It was 75 percent Americans and 25 percent Brits and Canadians.

It looks like the 'coalition' in Iraq today, resembles quite closely the make up of those who freed Europe from the Nazi's over a half century ago.

Some things change...some do not. Being a student of American History, I recall that only 25 percent of the colonists supported the War of Independence from British rule.

My point, if there is one in this rather drawn out ramble, is that only a few ever seem to see the necessity of offering the ultimate sacrifice in defense of freedom. The rest are just along for the ride.

Regards to all....amicus

I wish someone would explain whose freedom we were defending when we invaded Iraq.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

I’m pretty sure my reaction to this has to do with my own particular psychology. I have real problems with violence inflicted against helpless people, no matter who they are. It does something to me. Probably that’s why the prison pictures got to me as well. (Which is pretty weird since I’m into BDSM. Or maybe that has something to do with it? Some kind of acting out the thing that frightens you the most?)

As terrible as 9/11 was, it was very remote control and mechanical (aside from whatever went on in the hijacked planes before the crashes). It was almost like dropping bombs from the air on people you never had to see. The Berg execution was something else. Even in the case of Daniel Pearl, he was shot first. It takes a special kind of psychopath to use a knife in cold blood.

Amicus, I appreciate your restraint, but I really can’t see how anyone can still believe we have the slightest chance of establishing any sort of freedom over there among people who so obviously detest the very idea. I heard Bush talking about the ‘enemies of freedom’ on the radio, and the thought struck me that, hell, these people don’t need freedom. Too much freedom is the problem. They have freedom to kidnap and kill and do whatever the hell they want. What they need is some repression.

---dr.M.

I agree and since the are perfectly capable of repressing one another why can't we just get out?

-Colly

 

[ABSTRUSE]

I know some people in this thread have mentioned that they have seen it. But, why? Why would anyone want to watch that?

I've seen a couple of stills of it, prior to his murder, on the BBC TV news. There is no way I could bring myself to watch it. It sickens me. But, I guess people have their own reasons.



Lou

I was one of those people admittedly, I needed to see for myself if it was as bad as I thought or if it was made out to be worse than what was being said. It was.

 

[CharleyH]

I know some people in this thread have mentioned that they have seen it. But, why? Why would anyone want to watch that?

I've seen a couple of stills of it, prior to his murder, on the BBC TV news. There is no way I could bring myself to watch it. It sickens me. But, I guess people have their own reasons.



Lou

the same reason there are tabloids and reality TV?

 

[CharleyH]

I wish someone would explain whose freedom we were defending when we invaded Iraq.

The freedom of gas prices is my guess 9/11 was an excuse - think the CIA didn't know what was going on? Think George W didn't with his father having gone back - not to desert storm - nontendo war - but way back to 60's PULEASE!

 

[Pure]

Besides Colly, anyone heard of Lidice?

 

[pop_54]

No comment, it would only wind someone up if I did.

My sympathy and feeling goes to this poor soul's family.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Besides Colly, anyone heard of Lidice?

Not nearly enough have. Or Orandur-sur-Glane. Or Korteilesky. More's the pity.

-Colly

 

[Pure]

feeling to all poor souls--the dead-- of this war and its leadup, esp. the kids.

 

[shereads]

feeling to all poor souls--the dead-- of this war and its leadup, esp. the kids.

Like Dr. M, I've always had a particular aversion to knife-murders. There's something so personal about it, so invasive that somehow it seems worse than being shot - it's insane to think that, because getting shot by someone whose aim is off must cause a lot of pain before death comes. But knives still make my skin crawl. Stories about the French revolution will always be tainted for me by the guillotine, and even knowing why there was a revolution it's impossible for me to think past the blade and the enjoyment of people watching and cheering.

I can't even watch horror movies that have stabbing scenes, even implicit ones where it happens off screen.

But in the end, dead is dead and the victims don't care why we did it or that it was done with a missle or a knife, or that one side is with God and the other is the Great Satan. The dying civilians whose faces we never had to see at the moment of their deaths, the ones who were struck with blown-up rebar and buried under rubble in New York or Fellujah or Bagdad, the thousands who were just trying to live their lives, but got in the way of someone's mission, were no doubt as terrified as poor Nick Berg. And their fathers fell to their knees when they got the news, and their brothers tried to comfort him. They're just as dead. And tomorrow there will be more. Just as with Israel and Palestine, nobody can be the first to stop killing. Because people will call their leaders weak if there are no reprisals for the reprisals.

 

[minsue]

Hun,

If you can't make a distinction between us and them, when them are beheading folks, then I pity you. I don't hold all Muslims, all Arabs, or all anything else responsible, but when it comes to these acts and their perpatrators I am absolutely able to make an us and them distinction.

Us: Humanity

Them: Those who have rejected their humanity.

And yes, I am totally capable of saying shooting them down like rabid dogs whenever they can be located is totaly appropriate, least anyone have any questions of how much I hate them. At the same time, applying that is so damned hard because deciding who "they" are is so humanly fallible.

-Colly

I must disagree with you here. The reason human race is so utterly capable of committing horrific acts is precisely because of the ability to separate between "us" & "them" in our minds and because "they" are never considered human.

Them is us.