No Rape

[cloudy]

note to cloudy,
while you may be right about poverty in NC, the issue is the SES of the students at Duke, one of the US elite universities.

from the website

http://www.registrar.duke.edu/bulletins/Undergraduate/2006-07/financial.pdf

the tuition is 32,800; room about 5,000; food about 5,000; books about 1000. that's at least $44,000 per year.

now what would be the family income of a family spending that on little Rhett? surely at least $200,000. QED.

there is student aid, of course. but as a person who attended a similar--but better-- university, i can say that the dominant SES was quite well to do, if not wealthy, despite the substantial presence of scholarship students.

so there is no question but that the strippers were several notches lower, and black. since you are a native person, i would expect you to be sensitive to the previous impossibility of rape charges by poor, non white women, against better off white males. further, even though now it sometimes happens [that such charges are laid], i think you might agree that poor, black, hispanic, or native females are still at a disadvantage as far as succeeding in any such criminal prosecution against a white male.

ADDED: from the above, one can see the NON racial dimension to what occurred, what i said above applies to poor women of any color, including white. a poor white woman, e.g., a house cleaner, is unlikely to succeed in any kind of rape charge against her employer.

You have a point, however I would say it has everything to do with "poor" and much less to do with race.

 

[R. Richard]

Now, let us get back to law. From published newspaper reports, semen was found in the anus of the "poor Nego stripper." Said semen was not from any of the Caucasian boys. Said semen has been positively identified as coming from a specific Negro man. Anal intercourse is against written law in North Carolina. No arrests have been made by the Caucasian prosecuter for anal intercourse.


So you are suggesting that an anti sodomy law which is essentially dead letter--and likely unconstitutional-- be enforced against this stripper?

This entire line of argument is bogus, and is DIS allowed at a rape trial. The sexual activity of the complainant--even on the day in question-- has NO conceivable bearing on the issue of whether another person forced sex upon her. You are following a biased way of thinking as illustrated in the old situation whereby a prostitute cannot [in practice] be raped.

I never suggested that the sodomy and the rape were connected. In fact, I presented [newspaper] evidence to indicate that the two events were entirely unrelated.

What I did suggest [demand?] is that a written anti-sodomy law be enforced. Since the evidence of violation of the law included semen, it was obviously not an act of just the stripper. [You can check this out in a medical text book] the deposit of semen in the anus of the stripper was credited to a sexual encounter, by the stripper with a Negro male [the Duke lacrosse boys were all Caucasian.] The stripper apparently indicated to the scumbags that the anal fuck was consensual. Said anal fuck is against written North Carolina law. If the law is not being enforced, then the anal sex charge could be quickly dismissed and a conspiracy charge entered against the government and the scumbags. [Laws are passed by a legistlative body and are not to be enforced/not enforced at the whims of local government, at least from a legal standpoint.] [Kindly don't tell me how things actually work, I lived in the South. I know. I am talking law, not "everybody knows."]

 

[R. Richard]

ADDED: from the above, one can see the NON racial dimension to what occurred, what i said above applies to poor women of any color, including white. a poor white woman, e.g., a house cleaner, is unlikely to succeed in any kind of rape charge against her employer.

Point taken. In fact, what about a rape complaint by a rich white woman against the Governor of Arkansas? Also, what about a mixed race child who bears a starling resemblance to the same Governor and has been raised on State of Arkansas charity, because said Governor denies responsibility. [The "DNA test" supposedly conducted was so flawed as to be meaningless.]

 

[R. Richard]

Read it and "peep."

Lawyers: Dropped counts doom Duke case

DURHAM, N.C. - A prosecutor's decision to drop rape charges but keep other counts against three Duke University lacrosse players has left many legal experts — including some who had supported him — wondering what case he could have left.

Sexual offense and kidnapping charges remain against the defendants, but even some former backers of District Attorney Mike Nifong say the accuser may have lost her credibility for good after backing off a key allegation.

"I don't understand why all the charges aren't being dropped at this time," said Norm Early, a former Denver prosecutor who works with the National District Attorneys Association and had previously approved of Nifong's handling of the case. "It's such an incredible credibility problem that you wonder how the prosecution could rehabilitate her on the other charges."

The woman says Reade Seligmann, Collin Finnerty and David Evans attacked her March 13 at a team party where she had been hired as a stripper. In a five-page statement she gave police in early April, she wrote that she was raped vaginally, anally and orally.

Nifong dropped rape charges against the three men Friday, writing in court papers the accuser is no longer certain vaginal intercourse had occurred. That is required for a rape charge under state law, and "the state is unable to meet its burden of proof with respect to this offense," Nifong said in the filing.

"He got a rape indictment, so presumably he must have felt there was unequivocal evidence there was penetration," said Duke law professor James Coleman, a frequent critic of Nifong's handling of the case. "And for him now to say the only person who could have established that now isn't sure, that's pretty extraordinary."

Without DNA evidence linking the three players to the accuser, the woman's testimony figures to be the key element of the prosecution's case. Both Early and John Banzhaf, a professor at George Washington University Law School, said Friday that means the defense is sure to make the dismissal of the rape charge — and what it implies about her credibility — an issue at trial.

Banzhaf said no jury is likely to believe a witness who for months contended she had been raped, but now isn't sure.

"This is the beginning of the end," Banzhaf said. "If they couldn't make the rape case, I don't see how they could make the others."

Seligmann, Finnerty and Evans insist they are innocent. Their attorneys have repeatedly called on Nifong to drop the case, citing the lack of DNA evidence, criticizing how police conducted a photo lineup and maintaining that the accuser, a 28-year-old student at North Carolina Central University, has given investigators at least a dozen different versions of the alleged assault.

"What we have now, ladies and gentlemen, is a prosecutor who says his case rises and falls on the statement of the accuser and (he) is going forward with a case when he knows he has multiple, different, contradictory statements from that person," defense attorney Joseph Cheshire said Friday.

In dropping the rape charges, Nifong did not specify what sex acts authorities now believe occurred, and defense attorneys said Friday they don't have a clear idea of what the prosecutor will present at trial.

Nifong hasn't return repeated messages seeking comment. In an October 30 interview with The Associated Press, he said he felt a "responsibility" to prosecute the case.

In an interview with The New York Times published Saturday, Nifong said the "case will go away" if the accuser ever says one of the players she identified did not attack her. He also said he wasn't surprised the defense had focused on the accuser.

"If you can keep the victim from coming to court, if you make the victim say, 'Gee, this isn't worth it,'" he told the Times.

Nifong's commitment to case and the accuser, Coleman said, shouldn't come as a surprise.

"To all of a sudden drop it and admit he doesn't have evidence to proceed to trial would be a fairly damning admission. I don't expect that to happen," Coleman said. "On the other hand, I don't think the case has credibility. How can anyone believe there's evidence to support the remaining charges?"

 

[Boxlicker101]

Read it and "peep."

Lawyers: Dropped counts doom Duke case

DURHAM, N.C. - A prosecutor's decision to drop rape charges but keep other counts against three Duke University lacrosse players has left many legal experts — including some who had supported him — wondering what case he could have left.

Sexual offense and kidnapping charges remain against the defendants, but even some former backers of District Attorney Mike Nifong say the accuser may have lost her credibility for good after backing off a key allegation.

"I don't understand why all the charges aren't being dropped at this time," said Norm Early, a former Denver prosecutor who works with the National District Attorneys Association and had previously approved of Nifong's handling of the case. "It's such an incredible credibility problem that you wonder how the prosecution could rehabilitate her on the other charges."

Personally, as I have said since I heard about the case, and the way the DA ballyhooed it to the press, Nifong was just using it to help him win elections. Now that he has succeeded, he will want to find some graceful way to drop the entire case.

The woman says Reade Seligmann, Collin Finnerty and David Evans attacked her March 13 at a team party where she had been hired as a stripper. In a five-page statement she gave police in early April, she wrote that she was raped vaginally, anally and orally.

Nifong dropped rape charges against the three men Friday, writing in court papers the accuser is no longer certain vaginal intercourse had occurred. That is required for a rape charge under state law, and "the state is unable to meet its burden of proof with respect to this offense," Nifong said in the filing.

"He got a rape indictment, so presumably he must have felt there was unequivocal evidence there was penetration," said Duke law professor James Coleman, a frequent critic of Nifong's handling of the case. "And for him now to say the only person who could have established that now isn't sure, that's pretty extraordinary."

Without DNA evidence linking the three players to the accuser, the woman's testimony figures to be the key element of the prosecution's case. Both Early and John Banzhaf, a professor at George Washington University Law School, said Friday that means the defense is sure to make the dismissal of the rape charge — and what it implies about her credibility — an issue at trial.

Banzhaf said no jury is likely to believe a witness who for months contended she had been raped, but now isn't sure.

"This is the beginning of the end," Banzhaf said. "If they couldn't make the rape case, I don't see how they could make the others."

Seligmann, Finnerty and Evans insist they are innocent. Their attorneys have repeatedly called on Nifong to drop the case, citing the lack of DNA evidence, criticizing how police conducted a photo lineup and maintaining that the accuser, a 28-year-old student at North Carolina Central University, has given investigators at least a dozen different versions of the alleged assault.

"What we have now, ladies and gentlemen, is a prosecutor who says his case rises and falls on the statement of the accuser and (he) is going forward with a case when he knows he has multiple, different, contradictory statements from that person," defense attorney Joseph Cheshire said Friday.

In dropping the rape charges, Nifong did not specify what sex acts authorities now believe occurred, and defense attorneys said Friday they don't have a clear idea of what the prosecutor will present at trial.

Nifong hasn't return repeated messages seeking comment. In an October 30 interview with The Associated Press, he said he felt a "responsibility" to prosecute the case.

In an interview with The New York Times published Saturday, Nifong said the "case will go away" if the accuser ever says one of the players she identified did not attack her. He also said he wasn't surprised the defense had focused on the accuser.

"If you can keep the victim from coming to court, if you make the victim say, 'Gee, this isn't worth it,'" he told the Times.

Nifong's commitment to case and the accuser, Coleman said, shouldn't come as a surprise.

"To all of a sudden drop it and admit he doesn't have evidence to proceed to trial would be a fairly damning admission. I don't expect that to happen," Coleman said. "On the other hand, I don't think the case has credibility. How can anyone believe there's evidence to support the remaining charges?"

Actually, they concentrated first on the lack of evidence agaist the accused and the alibi of at least one of them. Now that those things have been established, they are concentrating on the sole remaining evidence, the statements of the alleged victim. Even here, they are attacking her credibility, which is legitimate, not her morals or reputation.

 

[R. Richard]

Actually, the case is now about pain.

If you take the prosecutor, the mayor, the Chief of scumbags, the male district representatives, the state Congressmen and even the governor and kick them in the balls, it will either kill them or they will recover. In either case the pain will go away.

I you take the same people and hit them in the wallet, for malicious prosecution and legal misconduct, the pain will remain for a very long time. Not only will the pain hurt those involved, but also the taxpayers.

 

[Huckleman2000]

Wow, you're a real winner with the personal logic, so it mostly explains your logic as applied to others.

If you read my post, it's clear that the instances I referred to as "not remotely illegal" were variously offensive and that I was not choosing to dredge them up. I still don't. They were lapses of taste and sensibility that I regret. They were in addition to or connected with some hard partying that included different types of drugs and alcohol. Wow. You're a real winner with the reading comprehension.

The distinction I was trying to draw was that there are behaviors that happen at college parties that are variously 'over the top' and boorish, but that hiring strippers for the purpose of demeaning them constituted crossing a line of unacceptable behavior that I am not willing to defend, legal or not.

From Wikipedia :

Background of the accused

Collin Finnerty has previously been charged with assaulting a man in Washington DC and shouting anti-gay epithets at him. The victim was not actually gay. He pled guilty and agreed to community service in November 2005 as part of a diversion program. Finnerty will stand trial for the previous assault because the judge decided that he violated the conditions of the program by being arrested again.[38] Reade Seligmann was one of five Delbarton School alumni on the lacrosse team.[39][40] Seligmann reportedly told teammates, "I'm glad they picked me" after being indicted - possibly alluding to what he believes is a solid alibi in the form of ATM records, photographs, cell phone records, an affidavit from a taxi driver, and a record of his DukeCard being swiped at his dorm.[41] Dave Evans, a graduate of the Landon School in Bethesda, Maryland, has two violations on his record: a noise violation and an open container of alcohol violation.

Two of the three accused, are indeed from private all-male prep schools. Additionally, the author of this incident attended Delbarton:
A couple of hours after the alleged incident, Ryan McFadyen, a member of the team, sent an email to other players saying that he planned to "have some strippers over" and made references to "killing the bitches," then cutting off their skin while ejaculating "in [his] Duke-issue spandex."

The e-mail was provided to Durham police by a confidential source who received the correspondence from the player's Duke e-mail account at 1:58 AM on March 14, 2006. The player's defense attorney has called this a "vile" email. The players suggest that the e-mail was conceived as humorous irony. Administrators say the email was an imitation of a character in the Bret Easton Ellis novel American Psycho. McFadyen was not indicted of any crime, but was suspended from the university due to safety concerns.[22] However, on June 29, 2006, the university reinstated him.[23]

So, what did the Duke players do that was so wrong? Read the timeline yourself, and think again about what point you're trying to make in expressing your satisfaction and sense of indignation over the DA's conduct in this.

I reiterate my original post:
While I hope that justice has been served in this case, at least so far as it can be determined, I find it really difficult to pity the LaCrosse players.

Okay, they (probably) aren't rapists.

They're just privileged white students of a prestigious university who decided that a worthy use of their money was hiring local black strippers to debase at their party.

Forgive me if I'm not incensed over their legal fees. Some peoples' education costs more than others'.

 

[Boxlicker101]

If you read my post, it's clear that the instances I referred to as "not remotely illegal" were variously offensive and that I was not choosing to dredge them up. I still don't. They were lapses of taste and sensibility that I regret. They were in addition to or connected with some hard partying that included different types of drugs and alcohol. Wow. You're a real winner with the reading comprehension.

The distinction I was trying to draw was that there are behaviors that happen at college parties that are variously 'over the top' and boorish, but that hiring strippers for the purpose of demeaning them constituted crossing a line of unacceptable behavior that I am not willing to defend, legal or not.

From Wikipedia :


Two of the three accused, are indeed from private all-male prep schools. Additionally, the author of this incident attended Delbarton:
A couple of hours after the alleged incident, Ryan McFadyen, a member of the team, sent an email to other players saying that he planned to "have some strippers over" and made references to "killing the bitches," then cutting off their skin while ejaculating "in [his] Duke-issue spandex."

The e-mail was provided to Durham police by a confidential source who received the correspondence from the player's Duke e-mail account at 1:58 AM on March 14, 2006. The player's defense attorney has called this a "vile" email. The players suggest that the e-mail was conceived as humorous irony. Administrators say the email was an imitation of a character in the Bret Easton Ellis novel American Psycho. McFadyen was not indicted of any crime, but was suspended from the university due to safety concerns.[22] However, on June 29, 2006, the university reinstated him.[23]

So, what did the Duke players do that was so wrong? Read the timeline yourself, and think again about what point you're trying to make in expressing your satisfaction and sense of indignation over the DA's conduct in this.

I reiterate my original post:
While I hope that justice has been served in this case, at least so far as it can be determined, I find it really difficult to pity the LaCrosse players.

Okay, they (probably) aren't rapists.

They're just privileged white students of a prestigious university who decided that a worthy use of their money was hiring local black strippers to debase at their party.

Forgive me if I'm not incensed over their legal fees. Some peoples' education costs more than others'.

In the post that Kev referred to, you said that you had used various illegal drugs, but that you had done nothing illegal. Huh?

As for what was done here: These guys hired a stripper. BFD. That kind of thing is done all the time. As for making lewd and ribald comments, that sort of comes with the territory. As for whether or not justice has been served, no it has not. At least not yet. The reputations of the three men has been tarnished forever; one of them will probably go to jail for a totally unrelated offense, and they have all incurred huge legal expenses as a result of a false accusation and malicious prosecution. Hopefully, the multi'million dollar settlement they should get from the city of Durham, or whatever legal jurisdiction is involved, combined with seeing Nifong recalled from office and disbarred for extreme lack of ethics should assuage that somewhat.

 

[Pure]

McFadyen's email "I plan on killing the bitches...."

{from an email sent just after the incident}

so, rr, do you subscribe to the 'humorous irony' interpretation or to the theory he was reprising 'American Psycho'?

regardless of whether his pecker entered the lady in question, i'd say he sounds dangerous. i agree with huck that probably it's manhandling and degradation were looking at; the criminal charge would be assault. (but it won't happen.)


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/05/national/main1476021.shtml

On Wednesday, authorities unsealed documents from a search warrant for McFadyen's residence, stating that less than two hours after the alleged rape, McFadyen sent an e-mail saying he was planning an encore to "tonights (sic) show." The message, addressed "To whom it may concern," said, "however there will be no nudity."

"I plan on killing the bitches as soon as the walk in and proceeding to cut their skin off," wrote McFadyen, a 6-foot-6, 225-pound Atlantic Coast Conference honor roll player who was one of five Duke players from the exclusive Delbarton School in Morristown, N.J., adding in vulgar terms that he would find the act sexually satisfying. The e-mail was signed with McFadyen's jersey number, 41.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0405061duke1.html

Duke Rape Case E-mail Shocker

After alleged assault, player wrote of killing, skinning strippers
APRIL 5--Shortly after an exotic dancer claimed she was raped at a Duke University lacrosse team party, a member of the squad sent an e-mail announcing that the following night he planned "to have some strippers over" and would be "killing the bitches" as soon as they walked into his dorm room. Disclosure of the e-mail came today with the unsealing of a March 27 search warrant for the residence of Ryan McFadyen, a sophomore lacrosse player.

McFadyen is pictured at right in his team headshot. According to the warrant, a copy of which you'll find below, the e-mail was provided to Durham cops by a confidential source who received the correspondence from McFadyen's Duke e-mail account at 1:58 AM on March 14.

According to the dancer, she was attacked earlier that morning at a team party (the woman and another dancer had been hired for $400 to perform at a home rented by three of the squad's captains). The e-mail from McFadyen's account notes that, after the strippers were killed, they would be skinned while the author was "cumming in my duke issue spandex." The e-mail is signed "41," which is McFadyen's jersey number.

 

[Boxlicker101]

{from an email sent just after the incident}

so, rr, do you subscribe to the 'humorous irony' interpretation or to the theory he was reprising 'American Psycho'?

regardless of whether his pecker entered the lady in question, i'd say he sounds dangerous. i agree with huck that probably it's manhandling and degradation were looking at; the criminal charge would be assault. (but it won't happen.)


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/05/national/main1476021.shtml

On Wednesday, authorities unsealed documents from a search warrant for McFadyen's residence, stating that less than two hours after the alleged rape, McFadyen sent an e-mail saying he was planning an encore to "tonights (sic) show." The message, addressed "To whom it may concern," said, "however there will be no nudity."

"I plan on killing the bitches as soon as the walk in and proceeding to cut their skin off," wrote McFadyen, a 6-foot-6, 225-pound Atlantic Coast Conference honor roll player who was one of five Duke players from the exclusive Delbarton School in Morristown, N.J., adding in vulgar terms that he would find the act sexually satisfying. The e-mail was signed with McFadyen's jersey number, 41.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0405061duke1.html

Duke Rape Case E-mail Shocker

After alleged assault, player wrote of killing, skinning strippers
APRIL 5--Shortly after an exotic dancer claimed she was raped at a Duke University lacrosse team party, a member of the squad sent an e-mail announcing that the following night he planned "to have some strippers over" and would be "killing the bitches" as soon as they walked into his dorm room. Disclosure of the e-mail came today with the unsealing of a March 27 search warrant for the residence of Ryan McFadyen, a sophomore lacrosse player.

McFadyen is pictured at right in his team headshot. According to the warrant, a copy of which you'll find below, the e-mail was provided to Durham cops by a confidential source who received the correspondence from McFadyen's Duke e-mail account at 1:58 AM on March 14.

According to the dancer, she was attacked earlier that morning at a team party (the woman and another dancer had been hired for $400 to perform at a home rented by three of the squad's captains). The e-mail from McFadyen's account notes that, after the strippers were killed, they would be skinned while the author was "cumming in my duke issue spandex." The e-mail is signed "41," which is McFadyen's jersey number.

Like it or not, and I don't like it any more than you do, the email is protected under the First Amendment,. McFadyen hasn't, to my knowledge, been charged with anything. He is a jerk and an asshole, but he isn't breaking any law.

If anything, the email is evidence that there was no rape. It said there would be an encore of the performance, but no nudity. Had a rape occurred, he would more likely have said something to the effect that there would be no fucking, rather than no nudity.

Either way, is's a disgusting and revolting thing for him to be saying.

 

[Huckleman2000]

The day I left for prep school
My daddy said to me,
He said, "Son, play LaCrosse,
It'll get 'cha in the University!"

I got them white boy blues (white boy blues)
I got them white boy blues (and I'm a rich boy, too)
I'm going away to Duke
And gonna just get drunk and puke
'Cuz I got them white boy blues (a-scooby-doo, wah, wahh)

Now we party pretty hard
At our team house just OC*
If we want women, we just hire 'em
From the local NOKD**

We got them white boy blues (white boy blues)
Discriminatin' white boy blues (and our lawyers wear white shoes)
LaCrosse team don't need no blacks
They just for basketball and track
We got them white boy blues (no booties on our ma-mas)

Now when I need a job
In the North, South, East or West
I don't need to go the long route
I just fly through LAX

We got them white boy blues (white boy blues)
Those networkin' white boy blues (they call us old boys, too)
If anyone gets in our way
There's gonna be holy hell to pay
'Cuz we're probably your boss, too!


* OC=Off Campus
**NOKD=Not Our Kind, Dear

 

[Misty_Morning]

.....

 

[Pure]

good points, misty. false accusations of rape--also child abuse--are quite despicable, and sometimes have resulted in false imprisonment.

the criminal justice system is supposed to look at evidence and judge beyond a reasonable doubt.

however, A's word against B's is sometimes going to prevail. and occasionally A's word is false. i would NOT want to insist on corroborating physical evidence in every case.

there has been some research on false rape allegations, but it's a tough topic. for instance, a number of women decide not to proceed, to 'withdraw.' this proportion may be 30%. however that, i'd argue does not mean that these 30% were concocting.

all this being said, the point holds that the percent of incidents against poor and black women which result in charges, or trials is still probably not that great. i do NOT believe, for rape, that the balance, now, generally favors the accuser. so there is a lessening, but not eradication, of some very biased views.

 

[Misty_Morning]

.....

 

[R. Richard]

This woman has probably done more harm to every woman who has had to endure the pain and humiliation of this violent crime than anyone else in recent memory.

Let us not forget that events such as this obvious false accusation occur every minute of every day in the US. And unfortunately, many of these cases get tossed to the side either because lack of evidence, lack of experience of law personnel and legal personnel or an incompassionate judicial system.

I am not going to open myself up for debate on this topic. My feelings are very intense.

I despise this woman for what she has done. And it has nothing to do with race or social standing.

You have seen the true picture of the woman's side of the matter. One possibly insane bitch has given every scumbag who doesn't want to really investigate a rape case the example to say, "See, it was all just a lie." The woman's race, religion and/or social standing have nothing to do with the matter, save that a prosecutor needed Negro votes.

However, look at the other side of the matter. Three college boys who hired a stripper from a service [Actually the only time in American history that a group of jocks or frat boys ever did this] have had their names and pictures splashed across the mews media. They were convicted, in effect, by the news media without trial. Now the matter will die as silent a death as practical and they will be the "rich white boys who raped a black woman and got away with it."

 

[Misty_Morning]

.....

 

[Huckleman2000]

When I hear someone say, "It's not about race or social class", that is a surefire sign that it's entirely about race and social class.

I haven't seen a news story, television report, or thread post about this whole sordid episode that hasn't mentioned race and social class. This wouldn't have been the story it is unless it was about race and social class. (Remember the U of CO recruiting scandal? The scandal about the girl who was trying to be a kicker for a college football team and got raped by a teammate? There are plenty of other examples of athletes raping women - just this week a case was broken about a high-school wrestler who used his moves to rape a string of women all over the state! Those aren't the stories this is, because the perps and victims were at least classmates.) Witnesses corroborate that racial slurs were traded back and forth, yelled at each other outside. The LaCrosse team at Duke had one black player, even though the school boasts 40% 'minority' enrollment. LaCrosse had a well-known reputation as a preppy white boy sport known for typically boorish behavior, long before this incident. Duke had a reputation as a 'bubble' campus that had little to do with the community of Durham long before this scandal.

Sheesh, Misty and RR and Box, you have a very conveniently selective choice of facts you'll acknowledge in this case. Your feigned race- and class-blindness is no indication that you don't have a racial bias. In fact, your willful ignorance of it in a case where it is a central part of the incident's notoriety smacks of a cynical ploy to disguise your racism, or at the least a blind ignorance of what racism is.

Misty, you write like Amicus, both in form and content. Never put one period where an ellipsis will suffice. What reasonable woman will look on this case and decide it's not worth prosecuting her rapist? The only attitudes her behavior reinforces are those sexist and racist attitudes that poor black 'ho's' are only out to unfairly discredit rich white males. How do those attitudes hurt actual victims of rape, unless they are poor black women? The DA brought the case on her behalf - if anything, he has erred on the side of rape victims in this matter, particularly victims of disproportionate social class to their attacker. If I were a rape victim, I would take some confidence that with some degree of physical evidence, there would be a reasonable chance that the case would go to trial. How does that set back rape victims?

Yes, in case there's any doubt left in your minds, I think you have demonstrated racist and sexist attitudes in your expressed views of this scandal. Worse, you have trumpeted your views as those of non-racists and non-sexists, either knowingly or un-knowingly perpetuating divisive and intolerant attitudes. As someone has noted, Rush Limbaugh's role isn't to introduce racist and sexist viewpoints; his role is to make them seem legitimate. That is what I believe you are doing in this case.

And that, Box, is a fucking rant.

 

[Misty_Morning]

.....

 

[Misty_Morning]

.....

 

[Huckleman2000]

Spoken like one who has never been raped.

Well, according to you, you don't think the woman in this case was raped either. To me, anyway, it's clear that she was at least humiliated and abused, by design. Calling up and requesting a pair of strippers for a small bachelor party, when the reality is 40 very large, very fit, and very drunk and disorderly frat boys who start to make racial slurs as soon as the girls show up and show some reticence to get into the situation, which was clearly not what they were expecting - that's hardly what I would term an innocent misunderstanding.

You say you have concern that many rape cases don't go forward because the authorities don't have the necessary proof, which is difficult to obtain. Well, the authorities in this case did DNA tests, did a thorough hospital exam, and so forth, and gave the woman every benefit of the doubt. If not that, what would you have prosecutors do to help prove crimes of violence against women? And yet you side with RR and Box, who seem to think the DA is guilty of gross misconduct.

You claim that this woman has done more harm to rape victims than anyone in recent history. How, exactly? By reinforcing the attitude that rape victims are probably just crying wolf? Seriously, do you think anyone who takes rape as the serious crime it is, is going to look at this case and suddenly say, "OOPS! I've been wrong all along! Rape IS a fictional crime"?? That's an awfully low opinion about peoples' judgement.

Do you think maybe the next Team Captain will think twice before hiring women to come to the team party to be debased by the team? I would hope so!

I'm trying to be understanding of victims of rape and violence directed at women, and I just don't see how such a victim would not have some empathy for the woman in this case. And how such a victim would take the view that the DA was grossly negligent, and that the abusers are somehow the true victims.

If that describes such a victim, I'd suggest they receive counseling, quite seriously.

 

[Seattle Zack]

Another dumb cunt who thought she could score Kobe Bryant money by making up outrageous accusations against a high-profile big money athletic organization. Good to see that's not gonna fly here.

--Zack

 

[Boxlicker101]

When I hear someone say, "It's not about race or social class", that is a surefire sign that it's entirely about race and social class.

I haven't seen a news story, television report, or thread post about this whole sordid episode that hasn't mentioned race and social class. This wouldn't have been the story it is unless it was about race and social class. (Remember the U of CO recruiting scandal? The scandal about the girl who was trying to be a kicker for a college football team and got raped by a teammate? There are plenty of other examples of athletes raping women - just this week a case was broken about a high-school wrestler who used his moves to rape a string of women all over the state! Those aren't the stories this is, because the perps and victims were at least classmates.) Witnesses corroborate that racial slurs were traded back and forth, yelled at each other outside. The LaCrosse team at Duke had one black player, even though the school boasts 40% 'minority' enrollment. LaCrosse had a well-known reputation as a preppy white boy sport known for typically boorish behavior, long before this incident. Duke had a reputation as a 'bubble' campus that had little to do with the community of Durham long before this scandal.

Sheesh, Misty and RR and Box, you have a very conveniently selective choice of facts you'll acknowledge in this case. Your feigned race- and class-blindness is no indication that you don't have a racial bias. In fact, your willful ignorance of it in a case where it is a central part of the incident's notoriety smacks of a cynical ploy to disguise your racism, or at the least a blind ignorance of what racism is.

Misty, you write like Amicus, both in form and content. Never put one period where an ellipsis will suffice. What reasonable woman will look on this case and decide it's not worth prosecuting her rapist? The only attitudes her behavior reinforces are those sexist and racist attitudes that poor black 'ho's' are only out to unfairly discredit rich white males. How do those attitudes hurt actual victims of rape, unless they are poor black women? The DA brought the case on her behalf - if anything, he has erred on the side of rape victims in this matter, particularly victims of disproportionate social class to their attacker. If I were a rape victim, I would take some confidence that with some degree of physical evidence, there would be a reasonable chance that the case would go to trial. How does that set back rape victims?

Yes, in case there's any doubt left in your minds, I think you have demonstrated racist and sexist attitudes in your expressed views of this scandal. Worse, you have trumpeted your views as those of non-racists and non-sexists, either knowingly or un-knowingly perpetuating divisive and intolerant attitudes. As someone has noted, Rush Limbaugh's role isn't to introduce racist and sexist viewpoints; his role is to make them seem legitimate. That is what I believe you are doing in this case.

And that, Box, is a fucking rant.

Personally, I think the person most cognizant of race in this case was Nifong the DA. He saw it as a chance to convince black voters he was on their side, and they should vote for him in the primary election. Any negarive aqttitude he might have had toward the accused and the other stripper would have been concealed. I believe the accused men had actually requested white strippers but, when they didn't get them, settled for the black women. As students at Duke U. and members of a top ranking athletic team, they probably thought of themselves as being in a higher social class than the women who worked as strippers. I'm reasonably sure they would have felt the same regardless of the race of the women.

I have seen quite a few news items about this case. Usually, no reference is made to anybody's race, but sometimes photos of the men are shown. You and Pure seem quite obsessed by the races of the accused and accuser and are usually referring to the men as "rich and priveleged", or similar characterization, as if it is somehow proof of their guilt.

I don't believe I have ever mentioned race, except to criticize Nifong for capitalizing on it. My posts make no mention of it, except when I am quoting you or Pure or expressing disagreement with you. I don't know much of anything about the social status of the men. They are attending an expensive university but they are probably on scholarship. Two of them attended prep schools but that might have been on scholarship also. Or, their parents might have scrimped and saved to send them there, in hopes they could parlay their lacrosse ability into scholaships at Duke or a similar place. I don't know, and you don't either.

Except for what she appears to be doing here, I would admire the woman who is the accuser. She is working to support her children and put herself through college, which I consider to be exemplary. That's about all I know about her. She might be an extreme racist, who hates white people and wanted to rip them off or shake them down because of real or imagined injuries. Or, maybe she isn't.

I don't know anything about the racial attitudes of the three men accused. There may have been racial slurs while the strippers were performing, but they may or may not have been said by the three men in question. McFadyed seems to be a virulent racist, but he is not one of the suspects.

You mentioned that Duke has 40% minority enrollment but only one black member on the lacrosse team. How many Hispanic or Asian members do they have, who would also be considered to be members of minorities. Since you have brought it up, do you think that 60% of the basketball team is white? That would be like nine out of fifteen players. Of course not. Is that a matter of racism or just a matter of signing up the best players they can get?

I don't consider myself to be a sexist or a racist. What I don't like is the attitude that an accusation is somehow proof of guilt, which you and Pure seem to be espousing.

You two, on the other hand, seem to be obsessed by race and social status, and Pure seems convinced that these men should be punished for what other white men did to black women over the last few hundred years. That doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[R. Richard]

If I were a rape victim, I would take some confidence that with some degree of physical evidence, there would be a reasonable chance that the case would go to trial. How does that set back rape victims?

And that, Box, is a fucking rant.

Sure you would! You would step forward and tell all of the people in your neighborhood that you had just been raped. The scumbags would then collect physical evidence with their usual sensitivity. You would then be interviewed by a team of scumbags, lawyers and medical types. You would get to relive every moment of your ordeal again and again, in public, more or less. OK, after the scumbags, et al rub your wounds raw, you can then file charges.

You then get to go back through the same interview again, only this time with the shyster who is defending the rapist. The shyster does the same thing that the previous team does, only the shyster will be as nasty as he [and it is almost always a he] can get away with.

Then nasty stories of your [supposed] previous sex life are circulated through the community [no, you can't prove it was the defense shyster.] Oh yes, the matter of how you dress, how you walk, how you talk and who you associate with become community gossip.

Then you find that your boyfriend/husband may well leave you because he just can't cope with dating/living with a girl who has been with another man. If you do try to date, you will find that a lot of guys who are of the mentality "no one misses a slice from a cut cake."

Huckleman, you might try talking with ladies some time. They might just give you a little different view on life.

Huckleman, I am Caucasian. You insinuate that I am a racist. Huckleman, I hate all races pretty much equally. I do have a slight racial prejudice against Caucasians, mainly because most scumbags are Caucasian. However, I am probably less racist than the average person.

 

[R. Richard]

It would appear that the "Duke lacrosse rape" prosecuter is in big trouble. Comments?

Pressure on Nifong in Duke case
[From the News and Observer]

DURHAM - To press forward in the Duke University lacrosse case, District Attorney Mike Nifong must rely on scanty evidence while deflecting serious questions about whether he broke the law or violated the ethics rules governing prosecutors.
Nifong has acknowledged that the case now hangs on what the accuser says from the witness stand in a hearing scheduled for February. Meanwhile, pressure on Nifong continues to build.

The State Bar has received multiple complaints demanding that he be disbarred. A congressman has called on the U.S. Justice Department to investigate him. And when the case returns to court, Nifong might have to explain repeated misrepresentations to judges about what evidence he had and why he did not disclose it all, as state law requires.

Nifong dropped the rape charges on Friday, but felony charges remain pending against three former members of the Duke University lacrosse team: David Evans, 23, of Bethesda, Md.; Collin Finnerty, 20, of Garden City, N.Y.; and Reade Seligmann, 20, of Essex Fells, N.J. They are charged with attacking their accuser, an escort service dancer, at a team party last March.

Nifong did not respond to a request for comment last week, and he declined to come out of his office on Friday when reporters asked him to talk about the rape charge dismissal. He has told The News & Observer that he would not discuss the case outside of court. But on Thursday, he granted The New York Times a three-hour interview, the newspaper reported Saturday.

In May, Nifong gave the defense a 12-page report disclosing that DNA taken from the accuser's body did not match that of any member of the lacrosse team. He did not disclose that DNA from unidentified men had been found on her body and underwear.

In the New York Times story, Nifong acknowledged that he should have turned that favorable evidence over to the defense. And he said withholding that information was an oversight -- he thought he had already turned it over.

That was Nifong's third explanation why he did not turn over the evidence. At the start of a court hearing Dec. 15, he told a judge that the first he knew about the favorable evidence was two days earlier, when defense lawyers filed a motion on the matter.

At that Dec. 15 hearing, a DNA expert hired by Nifong, Brian Meehan, testified that he and Nifong agreed to withhold test results showing that DNA from the unknown men had been found. After Meehan testified, Nifong told reporters that withholding the test results from a written report was a conscious decision to respect the players' privacy rights.

"We were trying to, just as Dr. Meehan said, trying to avoid dragging any names through the mud," Nifong said. "His report made it clear that all the information was available if they wanted it and they have every word of it."

But Nifong has bigger problems than his conflicting statements to reporters.

Since May, Nifong has repeatedly misrepresented his actions in filings and in face-to-face dealings with judges. Nifong has repeatedly said that he disclosed everything about the DNA evidence.

Federal and state law and state ethics rules require prosecutors to hand over all exculpatory evidence -- evidence that might indicate a person's innocence -- in a criminal case. Nifong acknowledged to The New York Times that the DNA tests results were "potentially exculpatory."

The misrepresentations began in May.

ON MAY 18, NIFONG FILED A NOTICE saying he had handed all evidence in his possession to the defense. He knew of nothing else favorable to the defendants, he wrote.

At a hearing that day, he told Superior Court Judge Ronald L. Stephens, "I've turned over everything I have."

But Meehan, the DNA expert, testified Dec. 15 that Nifong knew in April that Meehan's lab had discovered genetic material from unknown men on samples taken from the woman's body and underwear.

ON JUNE 22, NIFONG TOLD JUDGE STEPHENS in a hearing that he and Meehan had discussed only the contents of a report that was turned over to the defense.

Defense lawyer Joseph B. Cheshire V sounded skeptical at the time: "It's very difficult for me, although I take Mr. Nifong as an officer of the court at his word, to believe that there was no discussion at all as it relates to that testing."

Testifying on Dec. 15, Meehan said at least 33 times that he and Nifong discussed the results or agreed to keep them from the lab's final report.

AT A HEARING SEPT. 22, defense attorney Bradley Bannon pressed Nifong for more details of his conversations with Meehan.

Nifong again said they discussed only the contents of the report. "We did not ask any questions because the information was there in the summary [Meehan] had given us," Nifong said. "It was pretty clear. [Meehan] provided that to us. We looked over it. And we didn't have any questions about what was there. There's nothing really to provide."

Superior Court Judge W. Osmond Smith III, who has been assigned to the case, pressed for a clear answer to Bannon's question: "So his report encompasses it all?"

Nifong answered haltingly: "His report encompasses ever -- because we didn't -- they apparently think that everybody I speak to about, I talk about the facts of the case. And that's just, that would be counterproductive. It did not happen here."

Smith repeated his question: "So you represent there are no other statements?"

"No other statements," Nifong said. "No other statements made to me."

ON OCT. 27, SMITH SIGNED AN ORDER THAT STATED: "Mr. Nifong indicated that he did not discuss the facts of the case with Dr. Meehan and that Dr. Meehan said nothing during those meetings beyond what was encompassed in the final report of DNA Security, dated May 12, 2006. The Court accepted Mr. Nifong's representation about those meetings and held that there were no additional discoverable statements by Dr. Meehan for the state to produce."

These in-court statements crumbled on Dec. 15, when Meehan testified that he discussed the results with Nifong and they agreed to withhold them from the report. "We agreed with Mr. Nifong that we would report just the stuff that matched so that it would, so the report was limited in its scope," Meehan said.

The delay getting the information to the defense probably won't have much impact on the charges, said Richard Myers, a former federal prosector and assistant professor of law at the UNC-Chapel Hill School of Law. A judge would have to consider whether the delay was harmful to the defense; the likely remedy would be to give the lawyers more time to prepare for trial.

But Judge Smith may consider whether Nifong intentionally misrepresented his actions. Lawyers have a duty to be honest with the court, Myers said.

"The judge is going to have to decide for himself -- 'Has he been truthful with me, and was it an honest oversight?' " Myers said.

The judge could hold a lawyer in contempt, refer the matter to the State Bar or remove a prosecutor from the case for an actual conflict of interest, Myers said.

Meehan hired a lawyer to defend the actions of his lab. In an interview, the lawyer, Fred Antoun, said the defense lawyers were wrong to demand a report with all results included. The results could be found in the roughly 1,800 pages of technical documents that a judge ordered them in September to produce; the defense received them in late October.

"That is a childlike complaint," said Antoun, who practices in Pennsylvania and Washington, D.C. "The DA did hand it over; it just wasn't written in moron talk."

Antoun defended Meehan's partial report on several grounds: Reporting all the tests would result in a massive report that no one could understand. It would violate the privacy of the players, whom Antoun kept referring to as "soccer players." And listing all the test results would sully the reputation of the accuser, he said.

Antoun is not licensed to practice in North Carolina, where the law requires experts to write up a report of any test they perform.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Nifong deserves any trouble that he gets from this. He might say now that he won't discuss the case with the press but he was not so reticent last March when he loudly announced the rape and that he was going to prosecute the perps as soon as the DNA evidence got back. I don't believe anybody will ever convince me that his purposes in doing this were anything more than electioneering. I don't mean his investigations and preparing to prosecute accused rapists; that is perfectly proper and part of his job. What I mean is his very public and very premature announcements.

The fact that the accuser had been intimate with other men should be of no consequences, but the fact that DNA material was recovered from her body and clothing, and none of it was from any of the suspected lacrosse players, proves that none of them had any contact with her. If they had, they would have left skin and hair cells, which would have been recovered. In other words, all of the suspects had been proven innocent even before anybody was accused. I don't mean their guilt was doubtful; I mean their innocence was certain.

Even so, Nifong went ahead with his hopeless case. Two men were indicted by the grand jury, based on the testimony of the accuser. Presumably, he withheld the fact of the utter lack of scientific evidence. The third suspect was indicted when it was discovered that the accuser's false fingernails, which had been in his bathroom waste basket, had his DNA on them.

Hopefully, the upshot will be that the accuser's sorry ass will go to prison for perjury and similar offenses, and Nifong will be recalled or impeached and disbarred. Also, the three men should sue the city or county of Durham for a ton of money for malicious prosecution by the local DA. That's what it will take for justice to be served at all in this sad case.