No free lunch or soy biodiesel

[overthebow]

This is something suspected for a long time.

From http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8607389/

Research shows ethanol isn't worth the energy
Study: Production doesn't aid security, agriculture, economy, environment

ALBANY, N.Y. - Farmers, businesses and state officials — including many in Nebraska — are investing millions of dollars in ethanol and biofuel plants as renewable energy sources, but a new study says the alternative fuels burn more energy than they produce.

Supporters of ethanol and other biofuels contend they burn cleaner than fossil fuels, reduce U.S. dependence on oil and give farmers another market to sell their produce.

But researchers at Cornell University and the University of California-Berkeley say it takes 29 percent more fossil energy to turn corn into ethanol than the amount of fuel the process produces. For switch grass, a warm weather perennial grass found in the Great Plains and eastern North America United States, it takes 45 percent more energy and for wood, 57 percent.

It takes 27 percent more energy to turn soybeans into biodiesel fuel and more than double the energy produced is needed to do the same to sunflower plants, the study found.

"Ethanol production in the United States does not benefit the nation's energy security, its agriculture, the economy, or the environment," according to the study by Cornell's David Pimentel and Berkeley's Tad Patzek. They conclude the country would be better off investing in solar, wind and hydrogen energy.

The researchers included such factors as the energy used in producing the crop, costs that were not used in other studies that supported ethanol production, said Pimentel.

The study also omitted $3 billion in state and federal government subsidies that go toward ethanol production in the United States each year, payments that mask the true costs, Pimentel said.

Ethanol is an additive blended with gasoline to reduce auto emissions and increase gas' octane levels. Its use has grown rapidly since 2004, when the federal government banned the use of the additive MTBE to enhance the cleaner burning of fuel. About 3.6 billion gallons of ethanol were produced last year in the United States, according to the Renewable Fuels Association, an ethanol trade group.

This year, Nebraska's 11 ethanol plants are expected to produce more than 500 million gallons of ethanol.

The ethanol industry claims that using 8 billion gallons of ethanol a year will allow refiners to use 2 billion fewer barrels of oil. The oil industry disputes that, saying the ethanol mandate would have negligible impact on oil imports.

Ethanol producers dispute Pimentel and Patzek's findings, saying the data is outdated and doesn't take into account profits that offset costs.

Michael Brower, director of community and government relations at SUNY's College of Environmental Science and Forestry, points to reports by the Energy and Agriculture departments that have shown the ethanol produced delivers at least 60 percent more energy the amount used in production. The college has worked extensively on producing ethanol from hardwood trees.

Biodiesel can be used in any diesel engine with few or no modifications. It is often blended with petroleum diesel to reduce the propensity to gel in cold weather.

 

[Azwed]

I always thought the idea behind biodiesel was that you refined it from used cooking oil so that you were recycling a product that would normal be thrown away.

If you are doing that I don't see how it could cost more energy to refine since you are getting two uses out of the same product. The cooking oil just needs to be filtered and refined a little more to be used as biodiesel.

 

[woody54]

We can add solar cells into the same bullshit energy basket because they cannot generate in their lifetine, the energy it took to produce them.

I suppose you can regard them as a recharging battery so have a convenience factor but they are not a major dream product to replace oil power.

 

[overthebow]

I always thought the idea behind biodiesel was that you refined it from used cooking oil so that you were recycling a product that would normal be thrown away.

If you are doing that I don't see how it could cost more energy to refine since you are getting two uses out of the same product. The cooking oil just needs to be filtered and refined a little more to be used as biodiesel.

Yes, some cooking oil will be refined and used for transportation. But that is not a long term solution, which is what these companies are proposing.

You can't replace all of the gas with bio sourced fuels. The amount of cooking oil that can be used is so small as to make it insignificant. I use around 7 gallons of gas a week. There is no way that I can use enough cooking oil to get 7 gallons of fuel from that.

The bio fuels industry has, as a premise, the idea that it can reduce our dependence on foreign petro fuel. But it is very inefficient.

The bio fuels companies are asking for even more money than the $3 billion in corporate welfare that they get now.

 

[woody54]

This is something suspected for a long time.

From http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8607389/

Research shows ethanol isn't worth the energy
Study: Production doesn't aid security, agriculture, economy, environment

.

If the original energy source is from oil, this is a problem but where the enegy source is from some replaceable source, that energy efficiency argument becomes less important.

The creation of an energy product that has the transportable convenience of ethanol is beneficial, even at an energy deficit, because the transport industry has very defined limitations on fuel types.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

I wonder how much energy is used by oil to refine oil, and how much corporate welfare they get?

Couldn't you also use nuclear power instead of petrol to jump start things?

 

[woody54]

Yes, some cooking oil will be refined and used for transportation. But that is not a long term solution, which is what these companies are proposing.

You can't replace all of the gas with bio sourced fuels. The amount of cooking oil that can be used is so small as to make it insignificant. I use around 7 gallons of gas a week. There is no way that I can use enough cooking oil to get 7 gallons of fuel from that.

The bio fuels industry has, as a premise, the idea that it can reduce our dependence on foreign petro fuel. But it is very inefficient.

The bio fuels companies are asking for even more money than the $3 billion in corporate welfare that they get now.

Diesels will run satisfactorily on 99.99% oil filtered straight out the chip fryer with a dash of volatile hydrocarbons added to "break"it so you need to rethink your premise of their inadequacy as a replacement fuel.

 

[JustSkye]

They have already broke ground here to build a biodiesel plant. And mid grade fuel with the ethanol is cheaper than regular grade gas here.

 

[huskie]

If you looked at my fuelcell stock... you wouldn't think so

 

[woody54]

I wonder how much energy is used by oil to refine oil, and how much corporate welfare they get?

Couldn't you also use nuclear power instead of petrol to jump start things?

Lets face it, civilisation as we know it is the Oil Age and the end of oil dooms this civilisation.
The wider implications of oil in the chemical industry will cause a multifaceted problem as the oil runs out and we learn to survive another way.

A radical retrenchment to medieval feudalism is a likely possibility in poorer countries. This has to be bad for Capitalism in general except the few that command control of the power sources.

 

[Cap`n AMatrixca]

Lets face it, civilisation as we know it is the Oil Age and the end of oil dooms this civilisation.
The wider implications of oil in the chemical industry will cause a multifaceted problem as the oil runs out and we learn to survive another way.

A radical retrenchment to medieval feudalism is a likely possibility in poorer countries. This has to be bad for Capitalism in general except the few that command control of the power sources.

They will command control of them for a short time. Why? Because Machiavelli will rule the world... or, "Et tu, Brute!"

 

[kbate]

Yes, some cooking oil will be refined and used for transportation. But that is not a long term solution, which is what these companies are proposing.

You can't replace all of the gas with bio sourced fuels. The amount of cooking oil that can be used is so small as to make it insignificant. I use around 7 gallons of gas a week. There is no way that I can use enough cooking oil to get 7 gallons of fuel from that.

The bio fuels industry has, as a premise, the idea that it can reduce our dependence on foreign petro fuel. But it is very inefficient.

The bio fuels companies are asking for even more money than the $3 billion in corporate welfare that they get now.

Mild amusement to see one of the most liberal arguing in favor of big oil and against government spending to research alternate fuels.

I am pretty certain that somewhere, sometime in the mid/late 1800's somebody told Rockefeller that he was wasting his time drilling for that stupid oil in Pennsylvania and that wood and coal were the only fuels needed.

Nothing is wasted if it is a step toward a renewable energy source to replace fossil fuels.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

Mild amusement to see one of the most liberal arguing in favor of big oil and against government spending to research alternate fuels.

I am pretty certain that somewhere, sometime in the mid/late 1800's somebody told Rockefeller that he was wasting his time drilling for that stupid oil in Pennsylvania and that wood and coal were the only fuels needed.

Nothing is wasted if it is a step toward a renewable energy source to replace fossil fuels.

We could solve a lot of shit by putting windmills by your house.

 

[huskie]

Mild amusement to see one of the most liberal arguing in favor of big oil and against government spending to research alternate fuels.

I am pretty certain that somewhere, sometime in the mid/late 1800's somebody told Rockefeller that he was wasting his time drilling for that stupid oil in Pennsylvania and that wood and coal were the only fuels needed.

Nothing is wasted if it is a step toward a renewable energy source to replace fossil fuels.

and you'd think it's just a matter of time before the tech allows them to produce economically, hu?

 

[Le Jacquelope]

IIRC Brazil's cars all run on ethanol.

 

[kbate]

We could solve a lot of shit by putting windmills by your house.

Or perhaps simply a steam pipe from your mouth, I think that alone could relieve half the worlds energy troubles.

 

[overthebow]

Diesels will run satisfactorily on 99.99% oil filtered straight out the chip fryer with a dash of volatile hydrocarbons added to "break"it so you need to rethink your premise of their inadequacy as a replacement fuel.

We would need a McD's on each street corner to generate enough used cooking fat to power the cars. Fat from 'chip' fryers can logically power about 1 in 1000 cars.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

We would need a McD's on each street corner to generate enough used cooking fat to power the cars. Fat from 'chip' fryers can logically power about 1 in 1000 cars.

We may have to do just that, though.

Brazil has made the large scale switch to ethanol, why can't we?

 

[Le Jacquelope]

http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2005/06/1716137.php

Brazil embraces ethanol
by Marla Dickerson/Los Angeles Times Sunday, Jun. 26, 2005 at 1:16 AM

Although the United States is the world's second-largest ethanol maker, producing 3.4 billion gallons last year compared with around 4 billion gallons for Brazil, ethanol's main use in the United States is as a gasoline oxygenate to boost air quality rather than as a replacement for foreign oil.

SAO PAULO, Brazil — While Americans fume at high gasoline prices, Carolina Rossini is the essence of Brazilian cool at the pump.

Like tens of thousands of her countrymen, she is running her zippy red Fiat on pure ethanol extracted from Brazilian sugar cane. On a recent morning in Brazil's largest city, the clear liquid was selling for less than half the price of gasoline, a sweet deal for the 26-year-old lawyer.

"You save money and you don't pollute as much," said Rossini, who paid about $18 to fill her nearly empty tank. "And it's a good thing that the product is made here."

Three decades after the first oil shock rocked its economy, Brazil has nearly shaken its dependence on foreign oil.

More vulnerable than even the United States when the 1973 Middle East oil embargo sent gas prices spiraling soaring, Brazil vowed to kick its import habit. Now the country that once relied on outsiders to supply 80 percent of its crude is projected to be self-sufficient within a few years.

Developing its own oil reserves was crucial to Brazil's long-term strategy. Its domestic petroleum production has increased sevenfold since 1980. But the Western Hemisphere's second-largest economy also has embraced renewable energy with a vengeance.

Today about 40 percent of all the fuel that Brazilians pump into their vehicles is ethanol, known here as alcohol, compared with about 3 percent in the United States.

No other nation is using ethanol on such a vast scale. The change wasn't easy or cheap. But 30 years later, Brazil is reaping the return on its investment in energy security while the United States writes checks for $50-a-barrel foreign oil.

"Brazil showed it can be done, but it takes commitment and leadership," said Roland Hwang, vehicles policy director for the Natural Resources Defense Council in San Francisco. In the United States, "We're paying the highest prices at the pump since 1981, and we are sending over $100 billion overseas a year to import oil instead of keeping that money in the United States. ... Clearly Brazil has something to teach us."

Much of Brazil's ethanol usage stems from a government mandate requiring all gasoline to contain 25 percent alcohol. Vehicles that ran solely on ethanol fell out of favor here in the 1990s because of an alcohol shortage that pushed drivers back to gas-powered cars. But thanks to a new generation of vehicles that can run on gasoline, ethanol or any combination of those two fuels, more motorists such as Rossini are filling up with 100 percent alcohol again to beat high gas prices.

The exploding popularity of these "flex-fuel" vehicles is reverberating across Brazil's farming sector. Private investors are channeling billions of dollars into sugar and alcohol production, creating much-needed jobs in the countryside. Environmentalists support the expansion of this clean, renewable fuel that has helped improve air quality in Brazil's cities. Consumers are tickled to have a choice at the filling station.

Officials from other nations are flocking to Brazil to examine its methods. Most will find Brazil's sugar-fuel strategy impossible to replicate. Few countries possess the acreage and climate needed to produce sugar cane in gargantuan quantities, much less the infrastructure to get it to the pump.

Still, some Brazilians say that their government's commitment to ditching imports and to jump-starting homegrown energy industries were the real keys to Brazil's success.

"It's a combination of strong public policy and the free market," said Mauricio Tolmasquim, president of a federal energy research agency based in Rio de Janiero. "That's the Brazilian secret."

Brazil's fortunes have been tied to sugar since the Portuguese conquerors found that their tropical colony boasted ideal conditions for cultivating the tall, grassy plant. Brazilians produce and eat more cane sugar than any people on the planet, so the notion of using it to power their vehicles was a natural. After all, Henry Ford once viewed ethanol, which can be made from corn, barley and other crops, as a strong contender to fuel the Model T.

But the discovery of cheap, abundant petroleum changed everything. Like much of the rest of the world, Brazil guzzled imported crude until the 1970s oil shocks put its economy over a barrel. So totally reliant was Brazil on foreign oil that surging prices wreaked havoc on its balance of trade. That led to massive borrowing, huge deficits and, eventually, hyperinflation and a devaluation of its currency.

Thus the Brazilian government, then a military dictatorship, launched efforts in the mid-1970s to wean the nation off imports. Those efforts included its National Alcohol Program, known as Proalcool.

"To become less dependent was a matter of life and death," said Jose Goldemberg, secretary for the environment of the state of Sao Paulo.

With the help of public subsidies and tax breaks, farmers planted more sugar cane, investors built distilleries to convert the crop to ethanol and automakers designed cars to run on 100 percent alcohol. The government financed a mammoth distribution network to get the fuel to gas stations and kept alcohol prices low to entice consumers. It worked. By the mid-1980s, virtually all new cars sold in Brazil ran exclusively on ethanol.

But a 1989 shortage coupled with low gas prices soured many on the renewable fuel. Sales of alcohol-only cars tumbled in the 1990s, and the government gradually withdrew its subsidies and lifted price controls on ethanol. Demand stalled.

Some critics at the time chalked it up to the inevitable consequences of government meddling. But today many laud Brazil's Proalcool program for creating a viable domestic market for ethanol, and for spawning an industry with tremendous export potential that now employs more than 1 million Brazilians.

Although the United States is the world's second-largest ethanol maker, producing 3.4 billion gallons last year compared with around 4 billion gallons for Brazil, ethanol's main use in the United States is as a gasoline oxygenate to boost air quality rather than as a replacement for foreign oil.

But high gasoline prices have some farm belt legislators pushing Congress to mandate greater use of domestic corn-based ethanol in the U.S. fuel supply to reduce oil consumption. The U.S. Senate backs a plan in its energy bill to require the addition of at least 8 billion gallons of ethanol to the United States' gasoline supply annually by 2012.

Virtually all cars sold in the United States since the early 1980s can run on gasoline containing as much as 10 percent ethanol. In addition, there are an estimated 5 million "flex-fuel" vehicles already on U.S. roads that can burn a mixture as high as 85 percent ethanol.

But big logistical and political hurdles remain. Only a few hundred of the nation's approximately 169,000 retail gas stations are equipped to sell so-called E85 fuel. Nationwide distribution would require station owners to invest hundreds of millions of dollars in special tanks and pumps.

Although U.S. ethanol makers say they could easily double their output to meet any increase in demand, experts say that's still a drop in the bucket compared with the tens of billions of gallons that would be needed annually to displace meaningful amounts of petroleum.

The U.S. industry is resisting giving up tariffs that protect it from cheaper alcohol from Brazil. Meanwhile, some environmentalists say feedstock such as grasses and municipal waste offer much more promise than corn. But huge investments in research are needed to bring the costs down for this so-called "cellulosic" ethanol.

What most can agree on is that Brazil is an example of what might have been if America had seriously committed itself 30 years ago to renewable energy.

"If we would have spent one-hundredth of the money that we have spent to send tanks around the world to protect our oil supplies ... we would already be using cellulosic ethanol," said Michael Bryan, chief executive of BBI International, a Colorado-based bio-fuels consulting company.

Near the city of Ribeirao Preto in northeastern Sao Paulo state, the harvest is under way in Brazil's richest sugar cane producing region. Trucks lumbering under mounds of fresh-cut cane creep into Jardest Sugar & Alcohol. The vast milling and distilling complex, owned by Brazilian sugar trading giant Crystalsev, will run 24 hours a day nonstop until the season ends in December. The air is fetid with char from the fires that are clearing the fields of debris and vermin in preparation for the arrival of teams of scythe-wielding cutters. A lush emerald sea of cane rolls toward the horizon in every direction.

And there is a lot more where that came from. Brazil has about 13.5 million acres planted with sugar cane currently. More than 200 million dormant acres lay ready to cultivate.

"Oil is running out. The world needs more clean, renewable fuel," Crystalsev executive Maurilio Biagi Filho said. "And we are going to be there to supply it."