No Children Please; New Law

Pure

Fiel a Verdad
Joined
Dec 20, 2001
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Canadian News:
This Problem Sounds Awfully Familiar

Mar. 9, 2004. 01:00 AM

Child porn bill `disaster'
Artists unite to rally against passing Bill C-12 Broad change

to law would stifle legitimate projects


CHRISTOPHER HUTSUL
ENTERTAINMENT REPORTER

In Susan Swan's 2002 novel The Last Of The Golden Girls, two bored teenage girls simulate sex to pass the time. "I kiss her as hard and tight as I can on her lips," Swan wrote. "`I'm a hard kisser,' Bobby says. She smells of Noxzema."

Art or child porn?

Under a proposed change to Canada's child pornography law, depictions like that of children in sexual situations could be criminalized, say artists and writers.

The proposed change removes "artistic merit" as a defence for any written or visual material charged under child porn laws. If Bill C-12 is adopted, any film, painting or book depicting sexual activity involving people under 18 can only escape prosecution if a judge rules it serves "the public good and does not extend beyond the public good."

The bill will likely have its third reading later this week and could be passed into law shortly after that.

At a news conference yesterday to illustrate artists' fears of Bill C-12, Swan read a scene from The Last Of The Golden Girls, a work Publishers Weekly called a "pretentious ... sex-drenched novel about as erotic as a wet paper towel, and only half as interesting." As she read, a man dressed as a Mountie took her by the arm.

"Under the terms of Bill C-12, this is illegal, and I'm asking you to stop," said the actor playing the officer.

A crowd of 200 artists, filmmakers and arts administrators attended the event put on jointly by the Canadian Conference of the Arts and the Writers Union of Canada.

Video artist and art educator bh Yael read a statement from celebrated Canadian filmmaker John Greyson, who is currently in New York City.

"I'm getting ready for a knock on my door," wrote Greyson, whose film Lilies depicts teenage boys frolicking in a bathtub.

Greyson said he'd always been prepared to defend his film on the basis of artistic merit, using the Genies and other awards the film had garnered as evidence. But under the amended law, that defence would be useless and he would instead have to prove his work somehow served the public good.

"If Bill C-12 is passed, I'm going to rush right down to 52 Division and turn myself in," he wrote. "My only worry is that there's going to be a long line-up. What if I'm stuck behind Atom Egoyan, or the cast and crew of Degrassi High. Or worse, Alice Munro. Think of all the hours it will take just processing her."

Frank Addario, a criminal lawyer and legal representative for the Canadian Council of the Arts, called the bill both "a disaster" and "unconstitutional." He says without the benefit of long-term analysis, it will be impossible to determine if a work of art serves the public good.

"(The notion of public good) has never been understood by the courts, and when it has been understood, judges have said things like, `Well, surely the public good didn't require that much sex,'" he said.

In the bill, public good is defined as "that which is necessary or advantageous to the administration of justice or the pursuit of science, medicine, education or art."

The legislation was introduced in Parliament partly as a reaction to the 2001 trial of child-porn collector Robin Sharpe, who was acquitted of some charges of child-porn possession when lawyers were able to make the case that some of his collection had artistic merit.

The bill also amends the law to prevent people from writing child porn for their own uses, another defence used successfully by Sharpe. Under Bill C-12, any depiction of sex with children written for a sexual purpose will be illegal, even if it is never made public. And the bill stiffens some of the sentences for child-porn offenders.

The bill would also create a new crime of voyeurism to combat electronic-age peeping Toms who have abandoned keyholes in favour of high-tech devices such as tiny video cameras. The vague wording of the bill has also upset nudists, whose daily activities may be criminalized as a result. [end excerpts, Toronto Star, 3-09-04]
 
Pure said:
Canadian News:
This Problem Sounds Awfully Familiar


The bill also amends the law to prevent people from writing child porn for their own uses, another defence used successfully by Sharpe. Under Bill C-12, any depiction of sex with children written for a sexual purpose will be illegal, even if it is never made public.
QUOTE]

There was a case, Florida I think but don't quote me on that, where a man was arrested and convicted because he wrote child porn in his diary. Now, to be fair, he was already a convicted molester from what I remember. He tried to argue that his shrink told him to write it for therepy but the court didn't care. They said that the stories would cause him to go out and molest more kids.
It's been a while and I didn't follow it all that closely but probably wouldn't be hard to look up if anyone was interested.
 
Shit like this happening in Canada? Damn, I didn't want to hear that; I was counting on being able to emigrate up there if the Bill of Rights went down the tubes here.

I'm curious about how they'd handle pornography generated by children? I seem to recall reading in a bio of Anne Rice that when she was in grade school she made a fairly decent amount of pocket money by writing erotica for the benefit of her schoolmates, who paid her by the page or the line, I forget which.
 
SlickTony said:
Shit like this happening in Canada? Damn, I didn't want to hear that; I was counting on being able to emigrate up there if the Bill of Rights went down the tubes here.

I'm curious about how they'd handle pornography generated by children? I seem to recall reading in a bio of Anne Rice that when she was in grade school she made a fairly decent amount of pocket money by writing erotica for the benefit of her schoolmates, who paid her by the page or the line, I forget which.

Simple. Just charge them as adults. :rolleyes:
 
SlickTony said:
I assume you're being facetious. However, in today's political climate, one can't be too sure.

You assume correctly. I don't know about FL, but there seems to be a rush to charge children as adults whenever legally possible here.
 
minsue said:
You assume correctly. I don't know about FL, but there seems to be a rush to charge children as adults whenever legally possible here.

The ones I see are serious cases where I usually agree with charging them as adults but I'm sure there are lesser crimes where they have pushed for it just because that is the trend. It's sad. Kids can't make mistakes today. I see all the time where they are getting kicked out of school for very minor offenses. I understand the need for safety and a zero tolerance policy but sometimes they take it a bit too far.
 
minsue said:
Simple. Just charge them as adults. :rolleyes:

LOL, charge them as adults for writing erotica underaged! I could see it actually happening, and so few would even see the irony.

If they pass that law, they are going to have to arrest everybody with a bible. (Although ages are not stated, any historian could tell you that Ancient Hebrews did not wait till 18 to marry. I'm sure that there are intext clues as well.
 
there seems to be a rush to charge children as adults whenever legally possible here.

I wouldn't be a kid again for anything. I thought it sucked the first time. Not merely to be tried as an adult under sometimes very far-reaching pretexts, but to be used as a political football all the time.
 
The whole damn thing is absurd. Kids playing in bathtubs together? Girls acting out love scenes?

Have none of these lawmakers ever sat around and practiced kissing on the back of their hand at slumber parties and laughing about it with their friends?

Censorship behind the guise of protecting us or our kids from things that more than likely happen to everyone in the course of growing up is ludicrous.

~lucky
 
Making laws can't be easy. For one thing,you don't want child pornographers to find any kind of loophole whatsoever for their activities. And at any given case, a defense lawyer can always cry "this is art, and not intended to be porn".

Fing is, that Canadian law would make any description of perfectly normal teenage sexuality illegal, unless it could rely on that some judge deemed it worthy in the eyes of "public good".

Just looking at a small slice of our local culture outlet, I'd say that such a law in Sweden would probably ban at least a handful of movies been made in the last years. Teen dramas and comedies about growing up, falling in love, trying sex, rebelling against parents et al, has been quite a trend lately. I can see how a few of them easily could be deemed unworthy.
 
Lucky for him ...

It is lucky for that fellow, his name escapes me for the moment, who wrote that play about the 13 year old who fell in love with another teenager and their families objected, so they committed suicide, but not before they had played some very sexy scenes together, <draws breath>. As I say, it's very lucky for him he did not live in Canada, and that he died in 1616.

Of course, nobody in Canada will be able to put his play on the stage, or even own a copy of it, but what the hell, if it keeps the kids safe ...
 
SF: What about kids playing doctor? Would that fall under the same law?

Yes it's illegal, but the issue in *this* law is that the fictional story of such would also get you in trouble. even if you wrote it and kept it in your desk for perverted thrills of yourself alone.
 
Pure said:
SF: What about kids playing doctor? Would that fall under the same law?

Yes it's illegal, but the issue in *this* law is that the fictional story of such would also get you in trouble. even if you wrote it and kept it in your desk for perverted thrills of yourself alone.
Does the law define the media for such a story? If I write it and keep it on my website = bad. If I write it and keep it on my computer = bad. If I write it and keep it in my desk drawer = bad.

If I write it and keep it in my head, then what? Is that ok? If I have a bad memory, could I get an exception from the desk-ban due to disability?
 
Didn't Canada also have a law that said it was illegal to have any material depicting women as being dominated? I recall hearing that they started by banning BDSM material, then lesbian material, and finally feminist material, including the writings of Andrea Dworkin. Is this true? Because if it is, it's pretty damn funny.

And as a child, I... touched myself... there... Am I going to jail now?
 
KarenAM said:
Didn't Canada also have a law that said it was illegal to have any material depicting women as being dominated? I recall hearing that they started by banning BDSM material, then lesbian material, and finally feminist material, including the writings of Andrea Dworkin. Is this true? Because if it is, it's pretty damn funny.

And as a child, I... touched myself... there... Am I going to jail now?

That would be funny. Andrea Dworkin is one of the worst when it comes to banning. She is as bad as any Christian fundamentalist, except that she probably wouldn't ban gay male porn.
 
Karen said,

Didn't Canada also have a law that said it was illegal to have any material depicting women as being dominated? I recall hearing that they started by banning BDSM material, then lesbian material, and finally feminist material, including the writings of Andrea Dworkin. Is this true? Because if it is, it's pretty damn funny.

The Supreme Ct in R v Butler said that 'degradation' of the sex partner would make the matter pornographic; it was in response to some lesbian SM material. I believe Catherine McKinnon (comrade in arms, of Andrea; also VERY bright) had a hand in the drafting (of the brief the court was greatly influenced by). Of course the degradation of women is shown in some writings of Dworkin, as was pointed out-- i.e., in order to show how nasty rape is. These were not ever censored.

As time has passed, however, the 'degradation' concept has proven elusive. At first censors looked for semen on the woman's face. Or bondage and whipping. Or violence against males in lesbian porn (chopping off dicks). But lately that stuff does not raise an eyebrow. Gay Lesbian SM is still vulnerable, but more in a harassing way. So I'd say the tide has turned over 'degradation'; but the 'child porn' thing is VERY hot, and you can see how wide the net is being cast. I'm sure Romeo and Juliet will be OK, but don't you write a modern version, whether for your desk or to publish..
 
Pure said:

As time has passed, however, the 'degradation' concept has proven elusive. At first censors looked for semen on the woman's face. Or bondage and whipping. Or violence against males in lesbian porn (chopping off dicks). But lately that stuff does not raise an eyebrow. Gay Lesbian SM is still vulnerable, but more in a harassing way. So I'd say the tide has turned over 'degradation'; but the 'child porn' thing is VERY hot, and you can see how wide the net is being cast. I'm sure Romeo and Juliet will be OK, but don't you write a modern version, whether for your desk or to publish..

West Side Story was a version of R & J, set in New York. Tony and Maria, the ill-fated lovers were both young; Maria a 16 year old virgin when they had sex. The movie was highly honored, winning oscars in several categories. I wonder if that would be safe.
 
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