"No and no and no and yes. "

[Stella_Omega]

A really excellent op ed piece about negotiation;

"... You can have sex without explicit limits, but there's a catch: it has to be extremely predictable generic sex. If you have totally culturally "normal" sex--man initiates, manual, oral, then genital, orgasm and go to sleep--then there are some limits built in. But the instant you go outside that norm in any way, you make your partner worry how else you might go outside the norm..."

More here; http://pervocracy.blogspot.com/2011/03/no-and-no-and-no-and-yes.html

 

[neci]

i'm allergic to latex.

that would send me into a panic attack coupled with hives. so not sexy.

 

[lilkiki]

I want to try that cube.

I'm missing the point of the post, aren't I?

 

[Stella_Omega]

I want to try that cube.

I'm missing the point of the post, aren't I?

yeah, I picked totally the wrong part to quote!

 

[marieR19]

I totally love that blog-post, and I'm sharing it with my friends.

However, for about five minutes my only thoughts were: Ick ick ick ick so claustrophobic never ever *ever* latex vaccum cube whaaaaa???

 

[seela]

I'm not sure I get it. I mean, get the general gist, but I'm not sure I agree with it. The negotiation seems to fit playparties really well, but I don't see it absolutely necessary for relationships.

In my relationship I have no safeword and we haven't ever discussed and negotiated limits; it's been all or nothing from the get-go. The only discussion we've had on the subject of limits was when he asked, if I'm willing to play by his rules and I said yes. His rules were that he does what he wants and I do what he wants. Simple, really.

At the beginning of our relationship I didn't really know him, but I trusted him enough not to do anything completely out there. We both had the intention to make our relationship work and turn it into something that would last years. And we both knew it wouldn't be possible, if the trust was shattered right in the beginning. So we started off small, and as time went by, more and scarier stuff started to happen, but still no negotiation of limits. The more I've got to know him, the more we've been able to play with the limits of my trust in him, as well.

I don't want to discuss my limits with him, which is not to say that I don't have them. I do have limits, but I choose not to enforce them. I choose not to spell them out, even if the limits are flashing in my mind crystal clear. I trust him, and I want to trust him, to know, where the point of no return is and not go over it.

The cube, however, sounds delightful. I'm completely claustrophobic and not being able to move is on the top of my scary list. Covering my face with anything at all while the rest of my body is trapped in the cube would have me panicking and crying in seconds. Maybe I have to reevaluate my decision not to attend events and playparties.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Me, I do a lot of re-negotiating with my partners-- because my needs and limits change and although I'm a bottom at times, I'm not a submissive person.

AND this reminds me also, to talk to people who bottom for me, and make sure I know what their "No"s are.

 

[Cattypuss]

All I can think of, having read the thread title, is this -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InTAt2hI_kg

 

[welkin]

I don't want to discuss my limits with him, which is not to say that I don't have them. I do have limits, but I choose not to enforce them. I choose not to spell them out, even if the limits are flashing in my mind crystal clear. I trust him, and I want to trust him, to know, where the point of no return is and not go over it.

Either... You two's limits perfectly coincide -- which I do not believe, he can read your mind -- which I also do not believe, or that you are able to express your limits in some way, be it hesitation or a grimace or whatever. And then he stops before transgressing them. Which is the point of the article. It's not about two people sitting down and filling out of a form of do's and don't's, but about communicating (both explicitly and implicitly) and respecting limits.

And suppose he does violate your limit in some way, just hypothetically, I hope you will defend yourself. So it's not that you aren't enforcing your limits, you are just fortunate that you haven't needed to do something yet.

 

[seela]

Either... You two's limits perfectly coincide -- which I do not believe, he can read your mind -- which I also do not believe, or that you are able to express your limits in some way, be it hesitation or a grimace or whatever. And then he stops before transgressing them. Which is the point of the article. It's not about two people sitting down and filling out of a form of do's and don't's, but about communicating (both explicitly and implicitly) and respecting limits.

And suppose he does violate your limit in some way, just hypothetically, I hope you will defend yourself. So it's not that you aren't enforcing your limits, you are just fortunate that you haven't needed to do something yet.

Sure, I often hesitate and it does either make him push harder or back down. But in the end, the decision lies on him. I hesitate on many things, even if there's no limits what so ever there. I just don't care for a lot of things that he does, or he makes me do, so I hesitate. Then it's up to him to decide which battle he wants to pick.

But limits have been violated and that's actually something I've noticed I really need and crave. Which, of course, brings out the question, if it's really a limit in the first place or not. I've had bones broken (ok, just once) and joints dislocated, I've cried and slept on the couch, and felt utterly and completely let down and just bad because of his actions. I've been truly scared of him. But I need these feelings, I crave to enter that really dark place, where things are no longer fun.

The point of no return for me is something, that leads to irreparable damage and that hasn't been reached. This is our common limit and it's really the only one that matters. And I completely trust him not to take us there.

Not that this topic is actually very current to me at the moment, but hopefully things will get back to normal one day.

But I can really see, how negotiation has its place in playparties, but I don't think it's necessary in all situations. The writer did say they would have to be able to say no to some things to be able to say yes to some other. I don't find this to be true in my case. Also, I don't find my sex life to be limited, generic and predictable because I haven't negotiated limits.

 

[Stella_Omega]

But limits have been violated and that's actually something I've noticed I really need and crave. Which, of course, brings out the question, if it's really a limit in the first place or not. I've had bones broken (ok, just once) and joints dislocated, I've cried and slept on the couch, and felt utterly and completely let down and just bad because of his actions. I've been truly scared of him. But I need these feelings, I crave to enter that really dark place, where things are no longer fun.

Any of those things would be, for me, cause to leave the game-- leave the partnership-- and possibly find a way to beat the living crap out of the perpetrator in question. I would call you an edge player, as per that other thread-- just-- wow.

But I've been wondering about playparties. How do you negotiate there? I mean, do you only play with people you know already or do you trust the strangers to play by the general rules, which are outlined in the blog? I'm such a scaredy-cat, that I would never let someone even spank me, if I didn't know them and have a certain vibe about them.

You play with whom you want to play with, after you've met them and decided you trust them, and are sure you don't have any vibe about them. You can say no to anyone you want. And Yes when you want to.

These are parties, not... I dunno, prisons.

Generally speaking there won't be many strangers at play parties, after your, say third party. Most areas have a pretty small selection of pervs, and you get to recognising them all pretty quickly. If you've gone to a munch or two, you'll probably have said 'hi' to just about everyone. And the people you didn't meet-- more often than not are couples who only show up to play with each other and no one else anyway.

And you know... activities that you seem to go for, that strenuous, with so little care for the bottom's safety-- that would very likely get you kicked out of most play parties, and warned against when other kinksters asked about you. Honestly. And you claim you're a scaredy cat! I think you would scare the shit out of most folk there!

Also, I don't find my sex life to be limited, generic and predictable because I haven't negotiated limits.

I don't think the writer was thinking about anyone remotely like you when she wrote that.

 

[seela]

You play with whom you want to play with, after you've met them and decided you trust them, and are sure you don't have any vibe about them. You can say no to anyone you want. And Yes when you want to.

These are parties, not... I dunno, prisons.

Generally speaking there won't be many strangers at play parties, after your, say third party. Most areas have a pretty small selection of pervs, and you get to recognising them all pretty quickly. If you've gone to a munch or two, you'll probably have said 'hi' to just about everyone. And the people you didn't meet-- more often than not are couples who only show up to play with each other and no one else anyway.

And you know... activities that you seem to go for, that strenuous, with so little care for the bottom's safety-- that would very likely get you kicked out of most play parties, and warned against when other kinksters asked about you. Honestly. And you claim you're a scaredy cat! I think you would scare the shit out of most folk there!

I don't think the writer was thinking about anyone remotely like you when she wrote that.

You caught my silly little question about play parties before I edited it out.
It felt too stupid, so I decided not to even ask it.

The only events I've been to have been pretty large with new faces around every time. But yeah, if the events are smaller, then there are bound to be mostly people you know after you've been there a couple of times.

I never actually played in public, even when I did attend the events a few years back, but I saw many things I wouldn't want to take. I know my previous post makes me look like a real edge player, but physically I'm not, really. So I really wouldn't be kicked out, either.

The edge I'm interested is purely psychological and emotional. It's also something that gets very little understanding, so that's one of the reasons why I feel very uncomfortable and ill-fitting about my relationship in all communities (well, there's really only one community in the whole country...) in real life. I seem to fare a bit better online.

Thanks for answering my silly question, though.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Mostly, I wanted to point out to so many newbies, if they should happen to click on this thread-- that BDSM is NOT an all-or-nothing proposition.

That the average sub can have and enforce limits.

That "perfect submission" might NOT be your goal... despite the paperback novels we have all read.

 

[ImOnIt]

Mostly, I wanted to point out to so many newbies, if they should happen to click on this thread-- that BDSM is NOT an all-or-nothing proposition.

That the average sub can have and enforce limits.

That "perfect submission" might NOT be your goal... despite the paperback novels we have all read.

One day when I have plenty of time I am going to read through your entire post history and the histories of other good advisors and collate the results into a single document.

That way, when someone says 'I might like kinky sex but I don't want to give up the helm of the metaphorical vessel of my life to the mercy of the four winds' We can say, in concert: FOUR HUNDRED AND SIXTY ONE And they will say 'what?' Whereby we reply 'Pray, read the perennial advice for perennial questions, number 461!' Whereby all would be satisfied, and all would be right in the world.

 

[midwestyankee]

One day when I have plenty of time I am going to read through your entire post history and the histories of other good advisors and collate the results into a single document.

That way, when someone says 'I might like kinky sex but I don't want to give up the helm of the metaphorical vessel of my life to the mercy of the four winds' We can say, in concert: FOUR HUNDRED AND SIXTY ONE And they will say 'what?' Whereby we reply 'Pray, read the perennial advice for perennial questions, number 461!' Whereby all would be satisfied, and all would be right in the world.

Son, I'm afraid we're going to have to part ways here. Number 318 is the answer to end all answers.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Son, I'm afraid we're going to have to part ways here. Number 318 is the answer to end all answers.

I rather like 555 myself. I think that was one of Keroin's.

Thank you for the compliment, ImOnIt.

 

[midwestyankee]

I rather like 555 myself. I think that was one of Keroin's.

Mustn't forget the classic 222 from Netzach, either.

 

[bhndblueyes88]

I hate to butt in with the dork-joke, but I'm entirely positive that 42 is the answer.

Otherwise, I think that the post was a good read. And, while I can't really judge based on my one partner, we do communicate a lot more when we're in a bdsm context than not. But like I also saw discussed, a lot of it is implicit. We don't have a safe word because he reads me well and we haven't needed it. We certainly don't sit down once a month and rehash limits like some sort of strange board meeting

In a lot of ways, I think bdsm actually helps us keep our communication lines open. It's easy for us to communicate about life-things when we're so used to communicating behind closed doors. If the communication lines shut, something usually goes wrong in the bedroom and we're forced to reopen them. Overall, I think I works out quite well.

 

[Chiara_searches]

I hate to butt in with the dork-joke, but I'm entirely positive that 42 is the answer.

Like.

Otherwise, I think that the post was a good read. And, while I can't really judge based on my one partner, we do communicate a lot more when we're in a bdsm context than not. But like I also saw discussed, a lot of it is implicit. We don't have a safe word because he reads me well and we haven't needed it. We certainly don't sit down once a month and rehash limits like some sort of strange board meeting

In a lot of ways, I think bdsm actually helps us keep our communication lines open. It's easy for us to communicate about life-things when we're so used to communicating behind closed doors. If the communication lines shut, something usually goes wrong in the bedroom and we're forced to reopen them. Overall, I think I works out quite well.

Super like. I keep thinking back on my marriage and how it lacked even basic communication at times. He said black, I heard rutabaga. I said cat, he heard airplane. Just really bad. I'm still learning how valuable really good communication is, but this week I keyed into the fact that if you trust the words your partner tells you, and you work on keeping the words flowing, amazing things can happen. I knew before that communication is the key; but I think I "get it" so much better lately.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Communication in marriage, OMG.

I've been with The Dude more than thirty years-- and I still would never trust in him to "read" me during a scene. But I have managed to train him to HEARRRRRR me say "green yellow red." And say those words, too-- IF I remind him.

And everyone else I play with, we have to negotiate. We don't know each other that well.

 

[bhndblueyes88]

*shrug* If we needed a safeword atm, we would set one up. For a number of reasons, we've never gotten into heavier physical play (although not for lack of wanting) and we've not gotten close enough to where my limits are at the moment that I've felt we needed to set one up. The "things going wrong" I mentioned in my original comment weren't related to his actions. Usually me bottling up something or other for a while and not talking to him about it, then getting just emotionally raw enough for it to hit me all at once.

I would like to note, that when I say my boy is good at "reading" me, I do NOT just mean with my body language and behavior. I also mean that he can tell the difference between "no" and "seriously, I said no and I mean it". Maybe it wasn't the most accurate term to use. I just meant that we don't have any explicitly laid out system; we still verbally communicate.

 

[Stella_Omega]

*shrug* If we needed a safeword atm, we would set one up. For a number of reasons, we've never gotten into heavier physical play (although not for lack of wanting) and we've not gotten close enough to where my limits are at the moment that I've felt we needed to set one up. The "things going wrong" I mentioned in my original comment weren't related to his actions. Usually me bottling up something or other for a while and not talking to him about it, then getting just emotionally raw enough for it to hit me all at once.

I would like to note, that when I say my boy is good at "reading" me, I do NOT just mean with my body language and behavior. I also mean that he can tell the difference between "no" and "seriously, I said no and I mean it". Maybe it wasn't the most accurate term to use. I just meant that we don't have any explicitly laid out system; we still verbally communicate.

And that's pretty much the reading I was talking about too. The dude has to have some very explicit terminology...

Aside from which, my original purpose for this post is simply to point out that BDSM "subs" do NOT have to give up every bit of control in order to consider themselves "good subs," regardless of the relationship they have, or don't have, with anyone.

 

[bhndblueyes88]

Sorry, I didn't mean to contribute to the derailing of the thread.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Sorry, I didn't mean to contribute to the derailing of the thread.

'sokay, it's the nature of the beast. The Lit beast, anyway

 

[ImOnIt]

'sokay, it's the nature of the beast. The Lit beast, anyway

I thought YOU were the Lit beast