New Writer seeks feedback

[Mark James]

Hi:

I'm new to Literotica and I've just posted a fairly long short story. It falls into the category of Gay BDSM. It's posted in the Gay Male category.

I'm posting here because the opportunity to get genuine feedback is a rarity for most writers.

Please be warned, this story is not mainstream, nor is it intended to be. It's a heavy duty S&M story that involves sex between two men.

My goal is to write about powerful men who love teenage boys. Basically, a Daddy and boy kind of relationship. I mean "Daddy" in the sense in which it is used in the world of S&M, not incest. The setting is in a fantasy world. And yes, all my slaveboy characters are intended to be at least eighteen years old.

If any of the topics above offend you, DON'T read my story. You won't like it.

However, if you like your stories on the very rough side, please feel free to read it and let me know what you think.

If it's not too much trouble, I'm particularly interested in finding out the answers to questions like, after reading it, did you feel that the characters were given enough depth for you to understand what motivated their actions?

What confused you about the world?

Was the writing itself clear enough to convey the story?

To anyone who takes the time to read it (11,000 words!), thank you in advance.

Again, this story is NOT mainstream. Please do not read it if you are offended by male/male sex or BDSM or discipline or very rough sex.

Here's the link:

http://english.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=169742

The story name is "Assassins After Dark".


Thanks for your time and support

Mark James

 

[clcarne]

my oh MY!!!

But that was HOT!

I read both and they were so good. I'd love to read more in either universe.

You would know if you read my stuff that BSDM - especially when it's guys is a huge turn on for me - unwilling or not.

I see prison fics as stroke stories. Oz makes me cream. All wresling matches should end with the winner getting the losers ass. Much more entertaining.

This is one woman who loves a good hard gay fic. (A lot of them are gushier than I like. Jusy my personal taste.)

 

[Mark James]

Re: my oh MY!!!

Originally posted by clcarne
But that was HOT!

I read both and they were so good. I'd love to read more in either universe.

You would know if you read my stuff that BSDM - especially when it's guys is a huge turn on for me - unwilling or not.

I see prison fics as stroke stories. Oz makes me cream. All wresling matches should end with the winner getting the losers ass. Much more entertaining.

This is one woman who loves a good hard gay fic. (A lot of them are gushier than I like. Jusy my personal taste.)

Hi:

Thanks for commenting on my story. I especially love to hear from the ladies whether or not they like the kind of stuff I write.

If you had to choose, which story/universe did you like best? Just wondering, for my own curiousity.

Glad you enjoyed. Part two is coming soon.

 

[clcarne]

favorite???

I guess Assasins.... but i liked the other on too.

 

[Varian P]

Mark,

OK, FINALLY getting to this—sorry it took me so long.

I read "Assassins After Dark," and as I mentioned before, I dug it. I'll try to respond to your specific questions.

I felt thoroughly immersed in the world you created, which seemed a different, fantasy world in certain ways (language, social system) but largely familiar (ie: it's not Fantastic Planet or The Land that Time Forgot). In some ways the world of "Assassins" draws on, or at least evokes, a familiar kind of fantasy realm—a post-apocalyptic state of barbarism and slavery, and I didn't find the world confusing, though at times little things tripped me up—in particular, vocabulary specific to the story, and character names. But I don't think that's a flaw—that just part of introducing a reader to an unfamiliar environment. In particular, once we're at the whorehouse and among all the boys, it's quite difficult to keep them straight (um, inadvertent pun, there) especially as some of the names are terribly similar and, with a couple exceptions, at this stage the boys don't come across as all that differentiated from one another.

The writing, I thought, was quite clear, not to mention vivid and evocative and, at times, rather poetic.

This one thing still has me wondering, though:

Taj came first and knelt with his legs spread wide, his hands behind his back. Between his legs, his pierced cock hung limp and useless. That was the first thing Valak did to them. What did a whore need a hard cock for?

I'm unclear as to whether the boys have had a procedure that's made them incapable of getting hard, or whether Valak has mentally/emotionally conditioned them so they don't get hard around him/the customers.

In Valak you've created a terribly sexy character—tender and cruel at once, with charisma that fairly leaps off the page. You do a good job of conveying his character not only through his own dialogue and action, but through the thoughts of other characters—very effective.

The boys are interesting…I don't have a moral judgment to make, one way or the other, but they don't read as being eighteen or older to me. They act and sound much younger, but judging by the quality of the writing, I expect that they come across just as you want them to. But just in case…if you hadn't explicitly said in this thread that they were meant to be that old, I'd take them for being 12-14. But I suppose that their positions as slave/boywhores could have stunted their social development.

I hope that's helpful. I'd be glad to give you more concrete feedback on any other issues you're concerned/curious about.

Just as a parting thought, I found this story incredibly, disturbingly erotic. I'll second clcarne on being a girl who digs the hard gay stuff. Although I generally prefer elements of fear that don't culminate in actual pain, personally it was absolutely one of the most rewarding and erotic stories I've come across on L.com—thanks!

-Varian

 

[Mark James]

Mark,

OK, FINALLY getting to this—sorry it took me so long.

I read "Assassins After Dark," and as I mentioned before, I dug it. I'll try to respond to your specific questions.

I felt thoroughly immersed in the world you created, which seemed a different, fantasy world in certain ways (language, social system) but largely familiar (ie: it's not Fantastic Planet or The Land that Time Forgot). In some ways the world of "Assassins" draws on, or at least evokes, a familiar kind of fantasy realm—a post-apocalyptic state of barbarism and slavery, and I didn't find the world confusing, though at times little things tripped me up—in particular, vocabulary specific to the story, and character names. But I don't think that's a flaw—that just part of introducing a reader to an unfamiliar environment. In particular, once we're at the whorehouse and among all the boys, it's quite difficult to keep them straight (um, inadvertent pun, there) especially as some of the names are terribly similar and, with a couple exceptions, at this stage the boys don't come across as all that differentiated from one another.

The writing, I thought, was quite clear, not to mention vivid and evocative and, at times, rather poetic.

This one thing still has me wondering, though:

Taj came first and knelt with his legs spread wide, his hands behind his back. Between his legs, his pierced cock hung limp and useless. That was the first thing Valak did to them. What did a whore need a hard cock for?

I'm unclear as to whether the boys have had a procedure that's made them incapable of getting hard, or whether Valak has mentally/emotionally conditioned them so they don't get hard around him/the customers.

In Valak you've created a terribly sexy character—tender and cruel at once, with charisma that fairly leaps off the page. You do a good job of conveying his character not only through his own dialogue and action, but through the thoughts of other characters—very effective.

The boys are interesting…I don't have a moral judgment to make, one way or the other, but they don't read as being eighteen or older to me. They act and sound much younger, but judging by the quality of the writing, I expect that they come across just as you want them to. But just in case…if you hadn't explicitly said in this thread that they were meant to be that old, I'd take them for being 12-14. But I suppose that their positions as slave/boywhores could have stunted their social development.

I hope that's helpful. I'd be glad to give you more concrete feedback on any other issues you're concerned/curious about.

Just as a parting thought, I found this story incredibly, disturbingly erotic. I'll second clcarne on being a girl who digs the hard gay stuff. Although I generally prefer elements of fear that don't culminate in actual pain, personally it was absolutely one of the most rewarding and erotic stories I've come across on L.com—thanks!

-Varian

Varian:

Thanks for taking the time to write such an insightful and thoughtful critique of my short story.

As to the problem of keeping the boys straight, I'm going to address that in future sequels to the story. I plan to do that by letting some of the boys fade into background and keeping the ones I need to push the story line, in front. I think this will cut down on some of the confusion.

Why don't the slaveboys get erections? Well, here's the deal on that. I consulted with an MD. I told him I was a writer and I wanted to write a story about an unscupulous character who pierced a man's penis in such a way that he would never have erections again. He told me that if a man is pierced along the top of his penis, through a vein that supplies the penis with the blood that makes an erection possible, he would lose erectile function. He said there are fixes for that, but if it wasn't fixed, they would be unable to get an erection.

The piercing of the slaveboys is based on that idea. However, since most people aren't initimately familiar with the anatomy of the penis, it's a difficult concept to get across.

It's something I will have to address in future drafts. I need to get around the problem of explaining it, without sounding like I'm quoting a medical dictionary. Maybe have an actual piercing take place in the book? I'm not sure yet.

With Valak, I tried very hard to make it difficult for the reader to reject him out of hand as being "bad". I wanted to draw him as a dark, seductive man who lives in a very harsh world, and behaves accordingly. By the comment you made about him, I see that I succeeded.

I never mention the age of the slaveboys. I think the nature of their status in society forces them into a more "childlike" role, however it's not my intention to make them children. By the standards of our world, they do come across that way, but remember that they live in a society in which they are completely powerless, and victims to men who can easily hurt them, abuse them or, if they get lucky, a man who will take care of them without being too brutal.

I have a question about something you said in your critique. What does it mean to you when you say that a story strikes you as "disturbingly erotic"? Please let me know.

I'd also like to ask you about a story element that you didn't mention. In the story, the boys' are very tight, and penetration is very painful for them. Did you find that element arousing/erotic?


Thanks again for taking the time to write such a detailed, informative critique. It means a great deal to me and I appreciate it enormously.

MJ

 

[Varian P]

Why don't the slaveboys get erections? Well, here's the deal on that. I consulted with an MD. I told him I was a writer and I wanted to write a story about an unscupulous character who pierced a man's penis in such a way that he would never have erections again. He told me that if a man is pierced along the top of his penis, through a vein that supplies the penis with the blood that makes an erection possible, he would lose erectile function. He said there are fixes for that, but if it wasn't fixed, they would be unable to get an erection.

The piercing of the slaveboys is based on that idea. However, since most people aren't initimately familiar with the anatomy of the penis, it's a difficult concept to get across.

It's something I will have to address in future drafts. I need to get around the problem of explaining it, without sounding like I'm quoting a medical dictionary. Maybe have an actual piercing take place in the book? I'm not sure yet.

I have faith, given your obvious writing ability, that you'll manage this somehow. I don't think you need to quote Gray's anatomy to get your point across. For me, all you'd have to do is make explicit that the boys' inability to become erect is a result of their piercing--I don't need to know the exact how/where/why details.

With Valak, I tried very hard to make it difficult for the reader to reject him out of hand as being "bad". I wanted to draw him as a dark, seductive man who lives in a very harsh world, and behaves accordingly. By the comment you made about him, I see that I succeeded.

Valak is just delicious. My favorite characters are always intriguing blends of "good" and "bad." People you'd take great care to avoid in real life make very compelling, attractive characters in a work of fiction.

I never mention the age of the slaveboys. I think the nature of their status in society forces them into a more "childlike" role, however it's not my intention to make them children. By the standards of our world, they do come across that way, but remember that they live in a society in which they are completely powerless, and victims to men who can easily hurt them, abuse them or, if they get lucky, a man who will take care of them without being too brutal.

That makes perfect sense, and that's how I took it, based on your explicit mention in this thread that the characters are intended to be over 18. But in the absence of such an explicit mention, I'd automatically take them as younger. I only tell you this because, obviously, a mental image of a fourteen-year-old is very different from a mental image of a nineteen-year-old, and you may be giving your readers a different mental image than the one you intend. But I'm just one reader--others might get a totally different impression.

I have a question about something you said in your critique. What does it mean to you when you say that a story strikes you as "disturbingly erotic"? Please let me know.

Well, for me, things which are arousing despite or, more especially, because of depictions of immoral acts are "disturbingly erotic." So, when I read a depiction of enslavement, rape, and torture, and find myself aroused, it's disturbing. But that's also the inherent allure of non-consent fantasies and fiction. You get to enter a world, vicariously experience something, whether as victim or perpetrator, that's far beyond what most of us would consider actually experiencing.

I'd also like to ask you about a story element that you didn't mention. In the story, the boys' are very tight, and penetration is very painful for them. Did you find that element arousing/erotic?

Hmmm, intriguing question. I write mainly non-consent stories, and in discussing these themes with other writers lately, I've been giving a lot of thought to just what it is that I find arousing about this type of story.

In my stories, I tend to construct very scary situations, and have the characters very frightened, but ultimately the scenes don't culminate in real violence or pain. For me, the arousing part is the fear, not the inflicting or experience of pain.

So, in your story, I found the emotional dynamic between Valak and the boys highly arousing, but the idea of these boys going through night after night of excruciating pain was actually rather sad and depressing for me, and personally, undercut the eroticism. But of course, for every person you please with some erotic element, you'll alienate someone else--it's so personal, right?

That said, there is, I think, a widespread fetishization of tightness/virginity, of the painful penetration of the orifice that's incredibly tight. If one wants to focus on this, you're dependent either on an endless string of virgins, or something like what you've done. For it's sheer inventive perversity, I like that element of your story.

Varian

 

[Mark James]

Thoughtful answers

Varian:

Thank you for your thoughtful answers.

I'm very much intrigued by your idea of the "erotic" and what constitutes the erotic element in a story.

Your idea about the piercing is great. I'll keep that in the back of my mind for future drafts and scenes that come up.

I'm up tomorrow on SDC.

I can't wait to see what they think...

I'm going to read your stories now. I'm looking forward to it.

On a personal note, I was an English major, how about you?


MJ

 

[Mark James]

Great Story!

Varian:

I just read Conrad's First Girl, with my lover. He (Jaimie) was on the sofa and I read from the computer screen.

We really liked the way you were able to brilliantly convey what Elsie was doing and feeling at all times.

Your ability to enthrall the reader and pull them into the emotions of your characters was thrilling.

Although it's not your typical S&M story, there were very strong sadomasochistic elements that drove the story.

We saw it as Elsie's initiation into the world of a sexually submissive woman. I envisioned Elsie as someone who enjoys only sadistic men.

It seems to me that from this moment forward, she will always seek the exchange of power that happens between a dominant and a submissive.

We understood from the story that Elsie is still a virgin because of her lack of desire to submit to ordinary men. But all of that changed when she met Conrad. She became infused with the need to be humiliated and submit to a man who could give her what she needed. Her suppressed desire to be with a man who treats her like an object and a sex slave. Yet at the same time, Conrad is the utter "gentleman".

We would have liked to have seen more insight into Conrad's mind, so that the reader could become aroused by the dominant's sadistic need to manipulate Elsie and have power over her.

A good way to get into the dominant's mind would be to see Elsie's actions through his eyes. For example, when Elsie is on the floor, touching herself, it would have been more effective to see her through the dominant's eyes, instead of using straight narration. For example,

"Conrad watched Elsie on the floor. He knew that Elsie was the kind of girl that had never done anything improper in her life. That made her humiliation and shame all the more enjoyable. He relished the thought of taking such a good girl and degrading her, making her writhe on the floor, nearly naked, like she was now. Soon, he would make her surrender completely to him."

This way, the reader becomes connected to Conrad because you experience the narration as his inner most thoughts, rather than the telling of an impersonal narrator. And, the action of the scene is still revealed.

This accomplishes the goal of letting the reader understand how extremely erotic the dominant finds the elements of control, humiliation and her shame. At the same time, the action of the scene would still be narrated, the only difference would be that it would be from his point of view, so that the reader can enter his mind.

This would create less of an impersonal narration, and a more intimate feel for the dominant and his arousal at Elsie's shame and humiliation. So, the reader would feel that they're inside the character, rather than observing him from a distance.

You completely accomplished that with Elsie. We both felt what she felt. You did an excellent job conveying the subtle nuances of her character's insecurities, fears and naivete. Your writing skills are superb.

The story transported us and made us live Elsie's experience. We were delighted to read a story by such a talented writer.

We both have the same question though, why is Elsie Conrad's first girl?

MJ

 

[Varian P]

Re: Great Story!

Varian:

I just read Conrad's First Girl, with my lover. He (Jaimie) was on the sofa and I read from the computer screen.

We really liked the way you were able to brilliantly convey what Elsie was doing and feeling at all times.

Your ability to enthrall the reader and pull them into the emotions of your characters was thrilling.

Gosh, I'm flattered! And what a kind soul you are, hijacking your own thread to pay me such effusive compliments.

I'll make a little confession, and admit that the "Conrad" series is kind of a side project, and it's not my most wrought writing. Conrad is a character from the "Changed Girl" series, and I just liked the cad so much I had to give him his own novel. "Changed Girl" is something I've been working long and hard on, it's structurally and emotionally complex, and I've been using "Conrad" as a kind of break--something almost strictly prurient, which I don't subject to endless rounds of revision. But I think I know and like Conrad enough that the story comes to me rather easily.

Although it's not your typical S&M story, there were very strong sadomasochistic elements that drove the story.

Typical me.

We understood from the story that Elsie is still a virgin because of her lack of desire to submit to ordinary men. But all of that changed when she met Conrad. She became infused with the need to be humiliated and submit to a man who could give her what she needed. Her suppressed desire to be with a man who treats her like an object and a sex slave. Yet at the same time, Conrad is the utter "gentleman".

Yes, well, one of Conrad's special talents is reading people and understanding them very quickly, and he both exploits this little gift for his own (often questionable) ends, and to give people what they need-even when they themselves don't know it. Being the utter gentleman all the while, of course.

We would have liked to have seen more insight into Conrad's mind, so that the reader could become aroused by the dominant's sadistic need to manipulate Elsie and have power over her.

A good way to get into the dominant's mind would be to see Elsie's actions through his eyes. For example, when Elsie is on the floor, touching herself, it would have been more effective to see her through the dominant's eyes, instead of using straight narration. For example,

"Conrad watched Elsie on the floor. He knew that Elsie was the kind of girl that had never done anything improper in her life. That made her humiliation and shame all the more enjoyable. He relished the thought of taking such a good girl and degrading her, making her writhe on the floor, nearly naked, like she was now. Soon, he would make her surrender completely to him."

This way, the reader becomes connected to Conrad because you experience the narration as his inner most thoughts, rather than the telling of an impersonal narrator. And, the action of the scene is still revealed.

This accomplishes the goal of letting the reader understand how extremely erotic the dominant finds the elements of control, humiliation and her shame. At the same time, the action of the scene would still be narrated, the only difference would be that it would be from his point of view, so that the reader can enter his mind.

This would create less of an impersonal narration, and a more intimate feel for the dominant and his arousal at Elsie's shame and humiliation. So, the reader would feel that they're inside the character, rather than observing him from a distance.

Well, if I ever manage to get the next chapter up, it's narrated entirely from Conrad's POV. But I've wondered if the story would be more interesting if I did some POV switching during each chapter, to give readers a little taste of what's going on the each character's head.

You completely accomplished that with Elsie. We both felt what she felt. You did an excellent job conveying the subtle nuances of her character's insecurities, fears and naivete. Your writing skills are superb.

The story transported us and made us live Elsie's experience. We were delighted to read a story by such a talented writer.

Gosh, you're too kind. Really, I'm flattered--that praise means a lot coming from a writer of your ability.

We both have the same question though, why is Elsie Conrad's first girl?

MJ

Well, at the risk of telling you far more than you'd ever care to know, this novel is a prequel to "Changed Girl," and, essentially, Elsie is the first in a series of women Conrad seduces and manipulates, in various ways, in preparation for his abduction and "education" of the main character in "Changed Girl."

Thank you so much for such detailed feedback--it really is immensely helpful to me.

And, to answer your earlier question, I was a comparative lit major as an undergrad.

Good luck with your week in the SDC--there are several fabulous, insightful, delightful people who participate regularly--I'm sure you'll get some helpful critiques.

Varian