New writer looking for feedback!

[cattales333]

Hi! I'm new to writing and Literotica, and would love feedback on my (very) short story. From grammar to content, I welcome all comments and suggestions!

Story link:
https://www.literotica.com/s/christine-vietnamese-campus-whore

 

[ElectricBlue]

It would appear to be unfinished - it just... stops.

The blatant racism is distasteful - it's an ugly story because of it.

You can write okay, but I don't know why you wrote this.

 

[TheRedChamber]

I read this story, and, because it was short and I wanted to get more of an impression of you as a writer before commenting, I read the other story you've posted. Unfortunately, I have to agree with electricblue on this. Your other story clearly had a warning about fetishized raceplay, and you tagged this one with raceplay so that's clearly your thing and what you're going for. Obviously, while we try not to kinkshame on the forums, raceplay needs to be done extremely carefully if it needs to be done at all - and at the moment, I found your story to be more baffling and uncomfortable than erotic.

The thing is, 'raceplay' as I understand it, is a form of BDSM play where one member of a couple verbally abuse the other based on the stereotypes of that race. Like all forms of BDSM, if its done properly, it will have a long discussion before the session about how the 'victim' wants to be abused, a safeword during the session, and then aftercare and a further discussion afterwards about whether the sub got what they wanted from the session. You could potentially write a story about actual 'raceplay' which either include this conversations or in which they could be assumed to have taken place. While it still might be controversial, the authorial intent would be clear in such a story.

The problem with this story is you're doing 'raceplay' except without the 'play' part being obvious to the reader and as such it's hard to argue why what is left isn't just 'racism'. I'd argue there's two parts to this. Firstly, you can have characters in the story express racist views and not have the story necessarily be racist, but the reader needs to be able to put that kind of comment here into some kind of context. One of the characters says 'Viet girls are naturally sluts', the other character says 'Yes, the other Viet girl at this university is also a slut', the Viet girl in the story indeed acts 'like a slut', and we learn nothing more about the other Viet girl and whether what has been said about her is true or not. The point of the story seems then to be to inform the reader that this ethnicity is slutty. The text of a story can reflect the viewpoints of the characters, but then you also include the words 'Vietnamese Campus Whore' in the title and 'Vietnamese Slut' in the blurb which is far more under the authors voice and drives the point home.

The second problem is the strange and disassociated voice given to the title character. The sex language is plainly objectifying on a physical level ('subjugating', 'no longer had any control', 'rag-doll') which can be okay in BDSM play. Then we also have a mental objectification - she's not able to formulate a response, everything is done for his pleasure. Her viewpoint finishes

It hurt. Physically. Mentally. Emotionally.

She wished this was all a bad dream and everyone would disappear, but this was not just a bad dream. Nope. It was real life.

And the story finishes:

The two blondes just stared in repulsion as Hunter's thick cum spilled out from the Vietnamese girl's stretched-out pussy.

The 'sub' in this story then is not getting any kind of mental or physical pleasure from the act and then isn't really a 'sub' but just a victim. Anyone can make a mistake or have a bad hook-up, but we don't really get any indication of why she's acting this way. It's almost as if she's not in control of her own decisions (because it's just in her nature to act that way?)

There are plenty of stories where women choose to 'be a slut' because they like sex or find it exciting or a hundred other dramatic reasons. Writing a story which is ambiguous or has a downer ending can work - but is risky at the best of times and when you have so many racial elements unresolved here it's downright dangerous.

Your other story, while more obviously fantastical has a very similar dehumanizing element towards Asian women and put together don't give a good impression of your content.

 

[cattales333]

Sorry!! I definitely see what you both mean. For future stories, I will think about them differently with these thoughts in mind. I appreciate the responses!

 

[lovecraft68]

I find it ironic that a race play story is getting called out for racism when 90% of the interracial category and all of the LW stories dealing with race are completely racist AF, but no one talks about it.

Having said that, I agree the story seems to just...drift off? There does need to be a little more fleshing out in the story of what the game is. don't assume the reader understands. I'm not as put off by the content as the other two posters, maybe because I have long and varied experience in BDSM games with a little-but not much experience in race play, and definitely because I don't practice fake outrage for woke points with the professionally offended.

Also because I understand its a fictional story about people pretending to be something they're not...which includes being "racist' its the entire point of the game because some subs get off on humiliation. If a dom spends the story calling a female sub a cum dumpster and a skank and every name under the sun, the author doesn't get called out for being sexist....cause its not trendy to complain about that.

Ignore the others. The story really isn't my thing, but its realistic and delivers the fetish well(but again, a little more intro into it would help) issue isn't your story its the people not qualified to judge it with anything but their moral compass.

 

[TheRedChamber]

There does need to be a little more fleshing out in the story of what the game is. don't assume the reader understands.
...
Also because I understand its a fictional story about people pretending to be something they're not...which includes being "racist' its the entire point of the game because some subs get off on humiliation.

Just to reiterate, my main issue was that I couldn't see any 'game' in the story at all. Maybe I'm missing something obvious? It's a fictional story, but from my reading, everyone is exactly who they appear to be. A lot of the racist abuse seems to be said out of ear shot from the title character (and theres some sexist language that definitely is) and that character never has any kind of response negative or positive to any of it - it seems to me that any raceplay going on is between the writer and the reader rather than the characters.

 

[cattales333]

Thank you, lovecraft86, for finding the silver lining in the story. It gave me some hope!

I certainly see the flaws that all three of you pointed out. Reading it over with those in mind revealed to me how dull and incomplete it is. The poor ratings reflect that.

I will try to improve in future stories!

 

[lovecraft68]

Just to reiterate, my main issue was that I couldn't see any 'game' in the story at all. Maybe I'm missing something obvious? It's a fictional story, but from my reading, everyone is exactly who they appear to be. A lot of the racist abuse seems to be said out of ear shot from the title character (and theres some sexist language that definitely is) and that character never has any kind of response negative or positive to any of it - it seems to me that any raceplay going on is between the writer and the reader rather than the characters.

That's your answer. Its a different spin, normally is between two characters, this was done to excite the reader who has this kink. It makes it a little rougher to your point, but its still what its about, its just giving it a more outer view.

The MC was a foil for the kink, not the direct recipient.

 

[lovecraft68]

The majority of taboo readers enjoy the kink but would never be inappropriate with a family member, its fantasy

The majority of Non con readers enjoy the kink but would never hurt anyone in real life, its fantasy.

People who engage in age play would never have sex with a child.

People who engage in race play, are not racist, its a form of humiliation.

Those are the facts without the need for people to posture their political stances that my first three examples don't seem to bother anyone, but oh muh racism! Oh, Its so offensive!

Fetish has some extreme things in it that make me go from feeling like odds are I'm the kinkiest person in any room I'm in to making me feel like vanilla ice cream. Some of it is funny, some is eye rolling, some is flat out WTF...but to me because its not my thing.

The OP asked for feedback on their story, not to be kink shamed.

 

[TheRedChamber]

The majority of taboo readers enjoy the kink but would never be inappropriate with a family member, its fantasy

The majority of Non con readers enjoy the kink but would never hurt anyone in real life, its fantasy.

People who engage in age play would never have sex with a child.

People who engage in race play, are not racist, its a form of humiliation.

Those are the facts without the need for people to posture their political stances that my first three examples don't seem to bother anyone, but oh muh racism! Oh, Its so offensive!

Fetish has some extreme things in it that make me go from feeling like odds are I'm the kinkiest person in any room I'm in to making me feel like vanilla ice cream. Some of it is funny, some is eye rolling, some is flat out WTF...but to me because its not my thing.

The OP asked for feedback on their story, not to be kink shamed.

It's perfectly possible to write stories in each of your three example catagories that would cross the line into what I or many other people would consider offensive.

For example, it's one thing to write a story where a 25-yo dresses up in pig-tails and a school-uniform and calls her partner 'daddy' and it would be quite another to write a story where a grown man has sex with, well pick the single-digit-of-your-choice-age child and then claim that its 'age play' simply because the reader and writer assume it to be so. I'd argue that this the equivalent (although obviously by its nature more extreme) of what this story is doing with race.

Similarly, we had a recent thread about looking at what Literotica published in the Non-Consent catagory 20 years ago and myself and others were indeed bothered by it and said so clearly.

If you want to come and posture the idea that no fictional story should ever be offensive to anyone becase it is all fantasy, by all means do so. You're welcome to a political stance. Oddly though I seem to remember seeing you get offended by those high-scoring BTB Loving Wives stories.

 

[lovecraft68]

It's perfectly possible to write stories in each of your three example catagories that would cross the line into what I or many other people would consider offensive.

For example, it's one thing to write a story where a 25-yo dresses up in pig-tails and a school-uniform and calls her partner 'daddy' and it would be quite another to write a story where a grown man has sex with, well pick the single-digit-of-your-choice-age child and then claim that its 'age play' simply because the reader and writer assume it to be so. I'd argue that this the equivalent (although obviously by its nature more extreme) of what this story is doing with race.

Similarly, we had a recent thread about looking at what Literotica published in the Non-Consent catagory 20 years ago and myself and others were indeed bothered by it and said so clearly.

If you want to come and posture the idea that no fictional story should ever be offensive to anyone becase it is all fantasy, by all means do so. You're welcome to a political stance. Oddly though I seem to remember seeing you get offended by those high-scoring BTB Loving Wives stories.

Honestly, the age play example isn't a great one, this site has no understand of it. Your first example is the "right way' but they get iffy with that....but let's not get into what does fly through here with no issue. For real life? If there is a couple out there that gets off on the woman pretending to be a child, well...if they're both into it, why not? Again, no one has issues with rape play because the key word is "play" that goes for all other play nothing is off limits between consenting adults in their own bedroom. IMO is it squicky? Yeah, hence I don't do it.

I am in the same school of thought as Simon on this, and I mention him because he has on many occasions defended an author to write whatever they want in the realm of fiction regardless of content. Of course this doesn't take into consideration a platform's private rules, just in general. As far as offensive goes, its subjective, what offends me might be fine to you, and other way around.

I think race play falls under what I would call a "don't try this at home kink" as in my other examples, let's read or write about it, or see it portrayed in porn between paid actors, but don't try it out on anyone. As adults we need to know the difference and we need to protect the write to put down whatever we want, not what you or anyone else thinks is alright.

I abhor full out non consent stories, and at times have made noise not about the story or content, but the sites laughing stock rule its not allowed, but welcome to the non consent section. In that instance I am not condemning writer or reader, just the site's lying about their rules.

If I had my way people would not eroticize sexual assault. Key words are my way, and in the end I wouldn't want my way because it opens the door for you to have your way and decide what can and cannot be. Its the old cliche of censorship, first they came for them, then they came for me. So I let it all go.

If you don't like it state it, which you have, then from there move on. Don't adopt the stance that it shouldn't be a think because you're offended. There's an expression feel free to feel free, but don't feel free with me. If no one is being harmed, then that's all that matters

 

[ofbuttons]

The title of the thread includes the phrase "looking for feedback".

Even if the first reply is arguably unhelpful, I think getting a 'this is racist' response isn't nothing -- even if we label electricblue66's comment as simply kink shaming, TheRedChamber engaged the story in good faith and opened a discussion around how to write kinky problematic content and why it didn't work for them. I also write problematic stuff and I find it helpful to dissect and analyse the line between writing a fantasy story for the purposes of erotic stimulation and condoning bad behaviour. Do I do a good job? I don't know, probably not, probably a lot of people would find my stories abhorrent, and even if I have no intention to change for those readers, I'm still interested in my crafting of these stories because I'd rather avoid doing undue harm.

I think it's probably helpful to hear, for someone interesting in writing degradation through race play, about the differences in portraying a BDSM scene or constructing a story in which racist behaviour is presented as normal -- and it's fair to seek responses as to whether someone found this erotic or simply an expression of racism. I don't think that a problematic kink needs to be portrayed as sane/safe BDSM, it can be a fantasy, but TheRedChamber brought up some useful observations around the characterisation of the subject of this fantasy.

I don't like to just uncritically read things, even in erotica, and presumably you'd come to the story feedback board for feedback? The only radically political opinion in this thread is 'let everything go without criticism', and it also strikes me as a boring way to shut down a useful conversation.

 

[TheRedChamber]

Honestly, the age play example isn't a great one, this site has no understand of it. Your first example is the "right way' but they get iffy with that....but let's not get into what does fly through here with no issue. For real life? If there is a couple out there that gets off on the woman pretending to be a child, well...if they're both into it, why not? Again, no one has issues with rape play because the key word is "play" that goes for all other play nothing is off limits between consenting adults in their own bedroom. IMO is it squicky? Yeah, hence I don't do it.

I am in the same school of thought as Simon on this, and I mention him because he has on many occasions defended an author to write whatever they want in the realm of fiction regardless of content. Of course this doesn't take into consideration a platform's private rules, just in general. As far as offensive goes, its subjective, what offends me might be fine to you, and other way around.
I abhor full out non consent stories, and at times have made noise not about the story or content, but the sites laughing stock rule its not allowed, but welcome to the non consent section. In that instance I am not condemning writer or reader, just the site's lying about their rules.

If I had my way people would not eroticize sexual assault. Key words are my way, and in the end I wouldn't want my way because it opens the door for you to have your way and decide what can and cannot be. Its the old cliche of censorship, first they came for them, then they came for me. So I let it all go.

If you don't like it state it, which you have, then from there move on. Don't adopt the stance that it shouldn't be a think because you're offended. There's an expression feel free to feel free, but don't feel free with me. If no one is being harmed, then that's all that matters

I don't think we're actually that far apart in opinions. I think you may be projecting a little bit in that I haven't said anything at all about this kind of story not being allowed. (Looking at my original post again, I might have changed the words 'dangerous' to 'likely to attract a lot of criticism').

For the record, regarding politicial speech, I believe in less censorship rather than more because I've always taking the stance that it's better to be able to see hateful opinions and know what a person or group is up to and be able to meet it head-on rather than to force them to hide and be left in doubt. I'm not in favour of governments regulating fiction - people can write what they like and people are going to end up flocking to the sites which most closely match their tasts and values (though never perfectly).

 

[DaddyD88]

I don't practice fake outrage for woke points with the professionally offended.

Could not explain it myself but this is a perfect iteration of what I felt when I read those first two comments. Their attitude is just as judgmental and stifling to the freedom of the minds of individuals as the groups by whom they are purportedly offended. The judgement, and appalled rejection they cast on a kink with which they obviously have little to nil experience Is terribly off-putting, and awfully reminiscent of the exact type of oppressive, holier-than-thou regimes they flame against whenever woke points are on the line.

 

[ElectricBlue]

The title of the thread includes the phrase "looking for feedback".

Even if the first reply is arguably unhelpful, I think getting a 'this is racist' response isn't nothing -- even if we label electricblue66's comment as simply kink shaming,

I saw no kink in the story, I just saw blatant racism. Obviously, I'm not the target audience (who knew there was such a kink as raceplay - I didn't). In my defence, the OP asked for feedback in a general Feedback Forum - and, silly me, I thought they might be after writerly feedback. I said they can write.

If the OP had said, this story is about raceplay, I wouldn't have bothered reading it - just as I never read non-con, because I find that not to my taste, either. That's not kink shaming, that's just staying away from content I don't find erotic.

In any event, all I said was that the blatant racism was distasteful - obviously that's a personal opinion. If others want to translate that into some monstrous thought crime, go right ahead, but that will be your words, not mine.

 

[lovecraft68]

Could not explain it myself but this is a perfect iteration of what I felt when I read those first two comments. Their attitude is just as judgmental and stifling to the freedom of the minds of individuals as the groups by whom they are purportedly offended. The judgement, and appalled rejection they cast on a kink with which they obviously have little to nil experience Is terribly off-putting, and awfully reminiscent of the exact type of oppressive, holier-than-thou regimes they flame against whenever woke points are on the line.

Woke is a 'movement'. Like many movements at its core and beginning well intentioned in meaning, but once any movement starts its then joined by the type of person just looking for like minded jackals they can form a mob with and act better than. Hate is wrong, unless its their hate, then that's cool.

At this point if you want to see a cause ruined (racism, Metoo etc..) let the woke get their hands on it. They'll push it so far no one cares anymore which is the worst thing that can happen. They also live to eat their own, and inevitable they will all run afoul of their own fake morality, then the hilarity really starts.

Meanwhile they have us living in a combo of 1984/Animal Farm and Fahrenheit 451

 

[CuriousErin]

I love interracial sex and interracial sex stories. I have no problem with the racial aspect in your story though the racial aspect is not done well. At all. There’s no tension. There is no apprehension, conflict, resolution based on racial/cultural themes.

There are different kinds of race play. The race play that turns me on is sexual/racial subversion. It’s hot as hell! Here we just have a Vietnamese girl casually identified as a slut in a conversation that takes place between friends, while dancing “comfortably”, assumably with loud music playing. Besides not really making sense, it’s kind of boring.

There’s nothing erotic about your story. There’s no passion, no emotion. No descriptions of erotic thoughts, sensations, or feelings.

There are pointless details everywhere, and also details missing. The bad music - who cares? Shifting weight to the dominant leg??? We never learn how Christine developed such an insatiable lust for cock. It’s all over the place.

There’s giggling by characters over comments that aren’t funny. Humor, even the idea of humor, is something that should be used sparingly - in my opinion humor usually only works in erotic stories when done in a playful way.

Then there are the weird things like “Maybe it’s a Viet thing.” Who says that? Who uses such terminology? Definitely not college-age redheads named Faye! And calling Christine “the Vietnamese girl” repeatedly when we know what her name is. It’s just so weird and out of tune.

These are throw-away characters. In fact, they are not even characters - there’s no development whatsoever. Even though the story is short, I had a hard time reading it since it’s so disjointed.

If I were to write something like this, Christine would pull strings with the frat boys, maneuvering Faye into a rough three-way with Chris and Kyle as everybody watches, including Faye’s boyfriend, Jon. The other girls get so turned on they end up draining every cock in the house. We see Christine as sexually in-tune, powerful, and sovereign, with the rest as debauched sluts to be used. In the end Beth and Christine reconnect, forging a new partnership of exploration.