New paradigm

[Red Menace]

For the past couple of years I have been desperately trying to fit myself into the mould of a "slave" and failing miserably. It was pretty obvious to me, and everyone who knows me, that I was not the least bit submissive, but a few held the opinion that I may be "slave-wired". (I'm not going to go off on a tangent here, but I think the two are completely separate animals and one is not necessarily inclusive of the other... basically, it's possible to be either one without the other.)

Honestly, I'm not really sure if I'm capable of charting the back-waters of slavery even though I can go through the mechanics if I have to. The desire and ability to find pleasure in releasing control and ego and offer "selfless" service and submission because I find fulfillment in it, is completely foreign to me. I know there is a huge draw towards the fantasy of that primal, raw and vulnerable place... but in the past, when it's come down to do-or-die, all-or-nothing, yes-and-anything, I find more terrifying than exciting and more horrific than satisfying. Yet, it's still the fodder of my fantasies.

I've also been heavily involved in the public community in a major metropolotan area, and while I have many friends there and consider it to be an invaluable resourse to new kinksters like myself as well as experienced players, I have also found it to be no more judgemental and limiting than the "vanilla" world. It's okay to be into S/m... it's okay to be a little extreme in M/s... it's definitely okay to fall somewhere inbetween, wear lots of fun fetish clothes, practice the rituals and protocols that turn you on, discuss the ins and outs of punishment, discipline, Domination and submission.... but don't you dare push at those boundaries of our own self definition. Roles are closely defined, please don't step out of them; certain symbols are considered sacred, don't defile them by using them as something for fun or just because it turns you on; and by all means, don't you dare do anything as heinous as not conform to our version of non-conformity.

Shock value has always been a huge turn-on for me. Lately, I've been having this fantasy of shocking the supposedly kink-friendly and open-minded community by showing up as a switch, with another switch, who have collared each other and enjoy taking turns on either side of the whip. Maybe the occasional take-down scene to wrestle for the Top positon. Addressing each other as "Sir" and "Ma'am" and having it as a private, inside joke, because we both believe it to be silly and arbritary. Both allowing each other to be more vulnerable and intimate with the other because you know it could turn on a dime. More and more, I'm thinking the ebb and flow of D/s going a little one way and a little the other, without ever plumbing the depths in either direction, could ironically, establish a comfort level and intimacy between two people who have the capability to go either way... and it could, for me perhaps, be the path to that raw, primal place where the self is completely exposed, you completely trust your partner and are able to give them anything and everything because you know they've been in the same place and it's been you that's put them there, and there's sort of an egalitarian nature to the D/s, because it fluxuates.

I would be very interested to hear from anyone who has made the "switch" (no pun intended) from one side or the other to switch, what was it like, how did you do it and how have you settled into it? I'm also curious as to how any other public players view the scene in your area and what have your experiences been as far as tolerance and acceptance beyond the standard kink?

 

[incubus'_sub]

I've never been even tempted to switch, so can't answer that one.

I can say that if that direction seems to draw you in, then by all means do it, but do it for yourself, not for the shock & amusement value.

It wouldn't worry me in the least. I don't care what others choose to do either in private or in public. There will always be those who are shocked & horrified as well as others who just shrug & say so what!

Mocking others who do take their protocols seriously seems a bit rude to me. It does all seem a bit silly to many of us, but again, if it's what they choose to do & it makes them happy then their rights to behave in a set fashion are just as important as your rights to do your thing.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Hello Red Menace,

Interesting post, I am not a switch so can not make any comments on it. I have found that sometimes heterosexual S/M communities can be very closed minded to other viewpoints than their own. This is not in the majority of cases, but I have seen it happen and it can be a very hard and hierarchical environment.

My advice would be to check around if here are other communities around; normally speaking the kind of community you are describing will spark off more open and sometimes also more extreme clubs, but definitely less protocol and less hierarchical settings. Take a closer look at leather, leather communities tend to be more open and pansexual, although it can take a bit of getting used to.

Francisco.

 

[FungiUg]

I'm a firm believer in individuality -- whatever works for you. If they are defined by inviolate roles, it sounds like it is past time someone violated those roles! Just be prepared for the reaction: this is not a friends making tactic.

 

[RJMasters]

Well your post is well written and you have no problem stating exactly where your mind and thoughts are. I actually enjoyed your post in some ways as I too am facing a situation where I do not know exactly how to proceed as certain protocols and structures don't seem to fit.

However your post has given me some ideas as to some possible choices. But that is a differnt matter altogther so I digress..

When I first came to the BDSM community I was asked alot of questions and then told I was this or I was that. Ended up being placed under an extremely abusive Dom/me online for about 2 months. I was told I was a submissive, because I told people I liked to help others and didn't mind serving them. So off into submission I did go, my hard limits were repeatedly broken and the Dom/me said to trust her she knows what I really needed and want, I was just new and having a hard time letting go!

Well after about a month of this continued abuse i said fuck this and during a scene I grabbed the Dom/me by the throat and said I don't think I am going to let you Dom/me me any more.(remember this is online folks). Well she was pissed and of course alot of people all wanted to attack me for this. So a decent strong Dom stood up for me after talking with me at length about what happened. He blamed the Dom/me and others for being so quick to label me as a submissive. So then guess what...
You got it, because of what happened it was obvious I was a switch. Again they still attached the label of submissive to me since I had been this persons sub for a month. However a sub true sub would never do what I had done, so I must also be dominant hence I was a switch. So guess what, back under the same Dom/me I go this time to be a switch...yeah I was that dumb.

Shakes head...what a fucking disaster. After a few failed attempts, as I was not even remotely happy I went back and spoke at length with my old friend and he told me that I needed to know who I was myself and put my own label on myself. He told to say FU to the community and do my own thing, just be happy.

Ahhhh Guess what I learned, I am a Dom who like to help others. Imagine that.

Because of my experience, I always encourage people to take time and learn first who they are and to give your self some time when your new to being open about things.

However I love the protocols or system that is in place, but I seek that people have more respect and a deeper understanding of them and not to use them commonly.

The times are changing. Many things which were once sacred in our past are slowly being lost. For example, the use of words. I don not claim to be an expert, but I do see the value in that our words should have value and meaning, else one day, what we say will have little meaning or significance. As with any society or community, there needs to be a common agreed upon ground where some form of cohesion and unity can be reached. These protocols which you would like to treat so lightly, provide that to many in the community.

As I read your post I really don't see that you are angry or fed up with the protocols, as you offer that you want to be a "switch". This is a protocol is it not? Or a title that reperesent one. What I see is your anger at people falling into what is known as "Farse-Ritualism". A practice of certain rituals by a group of people who do not fully grasps the meaning behind them, but dogmatically defend them through personalization. It is the same for religious people and can happen to any community or group of people who fail to take the time to appreciate and learn why the protocols and traditions exist to be gin with. Each new generation, one person at a time must accept this responsibility, or risk cheapening the very things which bring unity.

What you suggest does not shock me or amuse me. I hope you change your mind and find a more positive way to express your anger. Perhaps by helping others to understand better your concerns and why you feel so strongly about certain things, will result in some listening and changing. Perhaps then you might find a place within a community you are comfortable with.

As others have warned. Bite the hand that feeds you and live with it. This in no way prevents you from doing your own thing and enjoying the freedom. As for the close mindedness of others, you can attack them or teach them, but I recommend you do it more specifically so as not to accidentally attack others who in reality you are not angry with.

I am sorry if I did not answer all of your questions, I think only one is needed, and it is the one that was given to me.

Figure out who you are and want makes you happy, then enjoy life as it was meant to be enjoyed.

Good luck

 

[AvaAdore]

It seems that there is a view point that a switch is always somewhere in between, that he or she can never fully submit to someone or be a good Dom/me.

I am more submissive than anything else, and I switch because my bf wants to bottom sometimes. I don't think I'm very good at it, not because I switch, but because I lack the confidence (which comes with practice, I guess). I do enjoy it, but it doesn't do nearly as much as submission does for me. What also screws the label up is that my bf is very rarely actually submissive. He likes a struggle. He particularly likes it when I am topping and we switch halfway through, usually forcefully. I'm not a big fan of that, but I still enjoy it and enjoy satisfying his kink.

My point? You can't classify everyone in neat little groups!

It doesn't seem to be a problem on lit, but from peoples posts it seems that a lot of communities are hung up on labels. And in an alternative lifestyle!

 

[kitty4ever]

I am very good friends with a switch couple. They do what you said, they trade off which one is in the dominant role in the bedroom. It's not arbitrary. They do go back and forth each time. It does work for them, and they are a very loving couple.

I hope that helps. Since I'm not a part of the relationship, then I can't give you anymore than that.

 

[Red Menace]

Catalina, that's a very interesting suggestion I hadn't considered. Thank you. I know there is at least one pansexual group somewhere around here. I'll have to look into that.

I'll also have to give closer thought to what to some of my motivations, I suppose. I really hadn't intended to come across as angry or looking to step on toes... just challenge some commonly held perceptions while exploring something that I find of interest. But maybe it would be better to explore that somewhere where it's accepted.

RJMasters, I'm very sorry you had to experience that. It saddens me when I hear of those new to the scene feeling that their first experiences have not been positive and sometimes even leaving damaging first impressions of WIIWD. I believe any group that considers themself a cohesive community has the responsibility of teaching and mentoring with concern for what's in an individual's best interest. That's something I think goes along with the traditions and protocols you mentioned, and I believe those have far more to do with the respect given one another than it does with maintaining a particular role. I'm truly curious though... how do you break a limit online?

 

[Pure]

Hi Red,
It sounds like you understand the situation. Most 'communities' do want defined roles. Hence some gay communities' discomfort with 'bi's.'

The switich off mentioned by Ava seems like it should not be a problem, nor your defiling sacred objects (collars?).

If you ever read a bio of Sade (At home with the Marquis de Sade, for example) you will read of very 'switchy' scenes he set up, even simultaneously penetrating and being penetrated.

Come to think of it, I've never seen this set-up described in this forum: whipping, while being whipped. odd, eh?

Sex leanings dont fit into boxes. Most people want theirs to.
As Diane Vera once said, 'slave' according to certain versions, sounds a lot like 'housewife.' Iow, those wanting labels (and secure OAO arrangements), get them; now it just *sounds* more exotic.

Find some *individuals* to hang with.

 

[Netzach]

Wow, this all has me thinking.

1. There is no unified "old guard" set of protocols. There is no meaning of symbols like collars or leathers or cuffs that everyone has *ever* all agreed on at *any* point. When people go off on the idea that the collar has sanctity and the goth kids at the malls wearing them are clueless and stupid, I get mad. The color black is mourning in New York, the color white is mourning in Saigon. If people make fun of the *spirit* of what I do, in SM, I get mad. If people make fun of a bunch of protocols that really can bend a lot of ways that most people want to only bend one way, I say, good. If you read about the old guard via a memoir like Vi Johnson's... I actually found a lot MORE flexibility assigned to the definition of bottoms and slaves than I see in the contemporary, heavily online influenced hetero-pansexual SM culture. That GLBT Leather strain has maintained a lot more of the same flexibility within a role, I've found, I agree with catalina there.

It has traditions and protocols and it's also always had people who are extremely rigid and serious about them and people who are extremely hedonistic and lighthearted about them. That's not new news.

Read Gayle Rubin on the Old Guard, it's an oft-quoted essay. I also belong to a Leather History online group where Vi and a lot of the makers of this history also put in time online, and it is dedicated to creating an accurate portrait of our community, debunking mythic unicorns of "European Houses" and such. That is, if any of this interests you. My point is not to say, look, I'm a Leather historian, just to say that people who are really rigid about protocols and histories often actually have no actual experience with them and want to create a mystique

2. My trajectory of development was a lot like RJ's only offline as well as on. I also suffered from "you're too nice to be a Domme" syndrome when I first got into the community. Compunded by "you're really cute and female and I want to Dom you whatever you think you are." It was decided that I was a submissive inclined switch because I dropped like a rock during my first experience in rope bondage.

Likes bondage = submissive.

I get very angry when people decide what other people are based on what they would like them to be.

While I really enjoyed some of the physical and psychological aspects of submitting/bottoming I also found that they didn't really round me out, make me feel that wholeness and click that I felt on the Top. I *always* left a bottom session doubtful, drained, and somehow unhappy. I *never* found a Top who cared or thought that important or a clue that there was something amiss, beyond "oh, sub drop."

When I found my way into the GLBT leather community, and found men who took on a boy as a bottom with the *specific knowledge and intent* that he would develop this boy as a Top, knowing that that was what he needed, I felt very angry, very used. I felt like there was a really strong lack in the straight D/s community of the real sense of obligation that a top has to a bottom to *recognize* that person, not just own them for the sake of owning them at any cost.

I vowed not to be like that. I also told the person I was switching with that I was not going to submit to him anymore, and he was really relieved by that more than saddened.

Then I met M. I don't see myself as a bottom at all anymore or a switch. I feel like I met someone I was put on this earth to cherish, beat, be served by, and protect in any way I possibly can. I feel like I've finally found where I belong, and for me, the main issue was in maturing enough to insist on it, whatever the people around me thought it was.

I came into the scene weak and young and very tractable, and I find myself strong enough to do whatever I want to do. Whether that means piercing someone, tying them up, walking on them, being fucked up my ass, or tied down securely, the world is my oyster and I don't have to call myself a switch to clarify anything in anyone else's brain if I don't feel like one anymore.

3. I admit that I am a total instigator. I love your idea for a scene, if I saw something like that out in the club, I sure as hell would stop and watch, and not condemn it, probably be massively turned on. I'm tired of seeing the same scenes over and over and over in public, played out with politeness, like tennis. Just check your motives, if shock is the only one, it's not worth it, but that doesn't sound like the case. If we were only supposed to play nice in public, I'd stay home.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I know I know Netzach, it is hard to read through to the end of my postings and see my name there and yes I am a bit of an old bore. Catalina is my property and as such a posting of hers could be said to be mine but the reverse, hmm I do not think so.

Francisco.

 

[RJMasters]

I believe those have far more to do with the respect given one another than it does with maintaining a particular role.

Couldn't have worded this any better.



I'm truly curious though... how do you break a limit online?

Was quite sometime ago so no worries.

I practice and teach deep mental surrender. Ever been hurt by something someone has said or done on line before? You tell me was the pain real or imagined? Take a moment to think about the implications of the question.

If your answer is it was real, then in the words of AA signature's block...welcome to the deep end, expect no mercy.

There are depths of power exchanges that many do not even realize can be acheived online. Sure they accept and play at roles on line, but to surrendur? When I say Keep it Real(KIR) behind the keyboard. I am saying don't seperate your online persona with the emotional and mental you sitting behind the keyboard.


To get a small taste read this story I wrote, then afterwards ask yourself what kind of mental surrendure would the lady in the stoy have to have for something like that to occur? Sure there are peices of that story that are ficticiious, but the mind is a very powerful thing, and is capable of more pure "power exchange" than most seem to care or want to understand and experience online.

https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=277494

Now take all of what I just said and apply it to me. How do you think I would react emotionally and mentally if someone actually broke a limit?

If limits can't be broken online, then why set them?

I have rambled on long enough sorry. I guess its about emotional investment and how much you are willing to invest. I'm just an intense kinda guy.

People are working on me though. Helping me to know when to lighten up.

(Please keep you arms and hands inside the vehicle at all times and remain seated till the ride comes to a complete stop).

"KIR"



Peace

 

[Netzach]

I know I know Netzach, it is hard to read through to the end of my postings and see my name there and yes I am a bit of an old bore. Catalina is my property and as such a posting of hers could be said to be mine but the reverse, hmm I do not think so.

Francisco.

Nwoopsie.

Thanks for the straightening out. You're quieter than she usually, that's the problem.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Nwoopsie.

Thanks for the straightening out. You're quieter than she usually, that's the problem.

I know quiet is not how I would described my beloved.

Francisco.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

Wow, this all has me thinking.
<major snip>
I felt like there was a really strong lack in the straight D/s community of the real sense of obligation that a top has to a bottom to *recognize* that person{SW's emphasis}, not just own them for the sake of owning them at any cost.
<snip>
I feel like I met someone I was put on this earth to cherish, beat, be served by, and protect in any way I possibly can.
<break>
I feel like I've finally found where I belong, and for me, the main issue was in maturing enough to insist on it, whatever the people around me thought it was.

Your entire post is fantastic, but I wanted to comment on three small parts of it that hit me where I live.

(1) That "real sense of obligation" is what concerns me about a number of people I see in WIITWD, both online and off, and to some extent, even to some of those with years of experience. I understand that there are those pyls who don't want a caring, personal emotional relationship with their PYLs, and vice versa -- logically, that is. Emotionally, I can't understand why someone would choose to be pyl to someone who didn't care about them, or PYL to someone who didn't care and didn't want them to care. To me, there is a distinct flavor of either prostitution or barter there - "Give me what I want and I'll give you what you want; but remember, it's just a business transaction." Sorry, not my cuppa tea.

(2) "I feel like I met someone I was put on this earth to cherish, beat, be served by, and protect in any way I possibly can."
Bravo! I don't know how anyone could have put it better. That is what I seek in a PYL/pyl relationship. Wonderfully phrased: clear, concise and sharp. Thank you for saying so well what I have often tried to express.

(3) "I feel like I've finally found where I belong, and for me, the main issue was in maturing enough to insist on it, whatever the people around me thought it was."
Congratulations not only for finding your self, and for having the self-confidence to believe in yourself when you did. Would that more of us could/would follow your example.

 

[Pure]

Sir W: //Emotionally, I can't understand why someone would choose to be pyl to someone who didn't care about them, or PYL to someone who didn't care and didn't want them to care. To me, there is a distinct flavor of either prostitution or barter there -

"Give me what I want and I'll give you what you want; but remember, it's just a business transaction." Sorry, not my cuppa tea. //

SirW: you're homogenizing a complex picture. all parts of live, and all activities in it are not the same. some persons are looking for a caring 'one and only' (OAO), some are not. indeed, some *with* a caring 'one and somewhat only' are looking for a supplement.

Very simply you're confusing a search for friendship(or marriage) with a search for sexual gratification (possibly in an unconventional way).

Further, where there is mutual 'care', is that not a barter? you love me, so I love you, and vice versa. Certain varieties of masochism, from Venus in Furs onward are not possible with a caring, devoted monogamous master/mistress.

As to prostitution, I think certain humiliations and variations are only possible commercially. I don't buy this 23 hrs a day you are my beloved faithful sweetie, and 1 hr a day you are a wandering slut. How convincing is that? (not at all)

 

[Netzach]

certain varieties of masochism are intensified within a caring relationship.

Certain indignities foisted on a loved one are more humiliating than they could ever be with an indifferent stranger.

 

[FungiUg]

Certain indignities foisted on a loved one are more humiliating than they could ever be with an indifferent stranger.

Um... I would hesitate to make such a generalisation. I can imagine some people really feeling humiliation from a total stranger. Where there's no "good" to offset the "bad", as it were.

We're all different, and have different needs, wants, desires, and ways of dealing with them. It's largely by that recognition that I have never been a fan of the "mystique" (as you called it Netz.) It's kind of interesting to watch though sometimes.

There was a comment earlier about how you do the equivalent of asserting your individuality online. Well, I do know that if you go into a chat-room and REFUSE to use the Y/you thing, you will cause a stink! Been there, done that... so it can be done.

 

[incubus'_sub]

Hi RJ. I question the possibility of breaking limits online too, nor can I really buy your answer. Why set limits online if they can't be broken ??? No, no, sorry. Any online limits are just an illusion created to fulfill some kind of need. If you are hurt or upset by anything that comes through the computer from someone you have never met in person, then you are doing it to yourself.

It is hard enough to interact and learn to trust real people without leaving yourself open to imagined betrayal from someone, who your intelligence must dictate, may not be anything like the person they pretend to be.

You do seem to be a deep sort of guy & sort of nice too, but in a Dom way of course. You seem to think everything through to the last detail & from every possible angle, so it surprises me that you would allow yourself to feel hurt in that way.

 

[Netzach]

Um... I would hesitate to make such a generalisation. I can imagine some people really feeling humiliation from a total stranger. Where there's no "good" to offset the "bad", as it were.

We're all different, and have different needs, wants, desires, and ways of dealing with them. It's largely by that recognition that I have never been a fan of the "mystique" (as you called it Netz.) It's kind of interesting to watch though sometimes.

There was a comment earlier about how you do the equivalent of asserting your individuality online. Well, I do know that if you go into a chat-room and REFUSE to use the Y/you thing, you will cause a stink! Been there, done that... so it can be done.

OK, I didn't mean it like rigid always are...I meant it more like can be. Generalization in response to Pure's generalization.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Certain indignities foisted on a loved one are more humiliating than they could ever be with an indifferent stranger.

For me it is the opposite...I find things which would normallly humiliate if done by others, often don't work when done by him. I think it comes down to the depth of surrender and knowing each other which takes away the need to feel shame, humiliation, etc., in his presence. Makes it difficult at times, but through exploring and communicating we do still manage to find ways that can work, especially if handled in a particular way.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

As to prostitution, I think certain humiliations and variations are only possible commercially. I don't buy this 23 hrs a day you are my beloved faithful sweetie, and 1 hr a day you are a wandering slut. How convincing is that? (not at all)

Not sure this first sentence is totally true, though I admit it is more the norm in most relationships. I can see where you are coming from with the 23 hour thing though...comes down to a desire for authenticity and lived reality as opposed to a play session or scene where it becomes more role play than reality. Is the main reason I went straight for 24/7 as I just felt personally I could not deal with living a dual life of sorts, switching it on and off for sessions while living the rest of the time in another mode or role....takes too much energy for me and I don't normally have an over supply of that. I admire those who can do it and keep on track, but would seriously derail me in many areas.

Catalina

 

[Pure]

//Certain indignities foisted on a loved one are more humiliating than they could ever be with an indifferent stranger. //

Please give an example. In particular one which addresses this idea.

Assume you respect the one you love.
Respect involves never truly degrading.
Ergo: You will never truly degrade the one you love.

From which it further follows: If a persons want to be truly degraded they will not go to someone who loves and respects them.

----
Added: I will agree there is an issue of *knowledge*. A loved one may know of sensitivities, sore spots, insecurities. Nonetheless, according to the above, they'd lack the will.

Further, part of humiliation is to be 'forced' to divulge 'sore' areas to a stranger so that s/he may exploit them. Whereas, if anything, it's usually reassuring to divulge a 'weak spot' to a loved one (assuming they stay loving and respectful).

 

[Kajira Callista]

//Certain indignities foisted on a loved one are more humiliating than they could ever be with an indifferent stranger. //

Please give an example. In particular one which addresses this idea.

Assume you respect the one you love.
Respect involves never truly degrading.
Ergo: You will never truly degrade the one you love.

From which it further follows: If a persons want to be truly degraded they will not go to someone who loves and respects them.

Hi pure. Here is a little of me, i love to be degraded, humiliated and all that wonderfully fun stuff. If a stranger or one who didnt give a rats ass about me did it i would kick some serious ass, and that would be an auto-reaction for me.
When a person does it because they know it is a need you have deep in your soul and it matches a need they have deep in their soul, is that not love in a way? So yeah, of course you can humiliate and degrade the one you love...if humilation and degradation are things you love to do.

 

[Netzach]

Wow, that's very carteisian of you, Pure.

And if I think we operated like that below the belt and in the heart chakras, I'd say you were right it's like a math equation or any collegiate logic course.

I don't think we do.

It works one way for catalina, it works another way for a gentleman I'm rather fond of. Recently I told him to go hit on a woman he knew was completely out of his 50 something nerdish league. Could be anyone, she just had to appear bitchy, hot, under 30 but over 18 and someone he would lust after at a polite distance but never dream of approaching. This is also a socially shy person who doesn't hit on people.

My reasoning and he knew it and I knew it was not to improve his ability to force himself to be an extrovert. No. It was purely for him to feel the sting and humiliation of a real rejection.

Now, the girl who's not in the loop is doing some of my dirty work for me without knowing it, and she'll live, it's not like he'll intimidate her, just cause her to roll her eyes and say something catty. However I'm the motor. I relish the blow to his ego, cementing the notion that a woman in her right mind will have nothing to do with him and he's lucky for the heaps of attention I do lavish.

Not exactly a Dr. Phil moment of good healthy fun. But it's fun for both of us, I know just laying out the task made this sissypants hard as a rock, and I do actually *like* the fellow a tremendous deal.