New (and kinda weird) prostitution law in Norway

[Liar]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7806760.stm

So, the Norwegian parlament passed a new law, criminalizing sex purchases. You can still sell it, but nobody is allowed to buy.

No, that's not the weird part. It's the same law as in Sweden, and the rationale behind that is that many of the prostitiutes here are in fact victims of organized trafficking and didn't exactly volunteer, so punishing them for it would be kind of wrong. And it doesn't add the fear of the law for hookers who want to snitch on their pimps. Although I don't think it's the right way to battle involuntary prostitution (or roundabout rape, as I'd like to call it), and it's bundled with illegalizing totally consensual acts too, I can see the reasoning.

The weird part in the Norweigan law is that Norweigans can now be charged and fined or even jailed in Norway for buying sex outside of Norway. For instance somewhere where prostitution is legal, like in Germany or in the UK.

In spite of being impossible to enforce - no German police would devote a minute to try and catch Norse johns - how is that legally possible? It raises a number of odd questions. Can a country's laws extrend beyond it's borders? Could US police arrest an American citizen for having chewed a pot brownie in Amsterdam? Or for taking a drink in a bar at 18 almost anywhere in the world?

What happens to foreigners who come to Norway, and have legally purchased ass in another country? Will they be arrested? Probably not. But that would mean that Norweigans and non-Norweigans are not seen as equal in the eye of the law.

The only similar thing I can think of is that there are laws (or "laws") for some countrys' military personell (the US and Sweden I know of, I presume others too) when they are on missions in a foreign country. But I assumed that that was because they were officially working, and was bound by the "corporate code" of their military, which often adopts laws form it's respectivde country.

But all in all, I can't see how it would work, from any constitutional point of view.

And weird it is.

 

[jomar]

Sounds like one of them designed by committee laws.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

More likely "written in a state of high righteousness" law. I just want to see them enforce it on a touring Nor-guy or a visiting foreigner. Wait until the International Court sinks its teeth into this one.

 

[Liar]

More likely "written in a state of high righteousness" law. I just want to see them enforce it on a touring Nor-guy or a visiting foreigner. Wait until the International Court sinks its teeth into this one.

Only problem is, the johns and the sex business will need a champion, someone charged of sex purchase abroad, to challenge the legality of the law. I'm guessing most in that position just want to pay their fine and have it not mentioned in pubic. It's a kind of personal thing.

It would take one adamant consumer to get that going.

 

[CharleyH]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7806760.stm

So, the Norwegian parlament passed a new law, criminalizing sex purchases. You can still sell it, but nobody is allowed to buy.

No, that's not the weird part. It's the same law as in Sweden, and the rationale behind that is that many of the prostitiutes here are in fact victims of organized trafficking and didn't exactly volunteer, so punishing them for it would be kind of wrong. And it doesn't add the fear of the law for hookers who want to snitch on their pimps. Although I don't think it's the right way to battle involuntary prostitution (or roundabout rape, as I'd like to call it), and it's bundled with illegalizing totally consensual acts too, I can see the reasoning.

The weird part in the Norweigan law is that Norweigans can now be charged and fined or even jailed in Norway for buying sex outside of Norway. For instance somewhere where prostitution is legal, like in Germany or in the UK.

In spite of being impossible to enforce - no German police would devote a minute to try and catch Norse johns - how is that legally possible? It raises a number of odd questions. Can a country's laws extrend beyond it's borders? Could US police arrest an American citizen for having chewed a pot brownie in Amsterdam? Or for taking a drink in a bar at 18 almost anywhere in the world?

What happens to foreigners who come to Norway, and have legally purchased ass in another country? Will they be arrested? Probably not. But that would mean that Norweigans and non-Norweigans are not seen as equal in the eye of the law.

The only similar thing I can think of is that there are laws (or "laws") for some countrys' military personell (the US and Sweden I know of, I presume others too) when they are on missions in a foreign country. But I assumed that that was because they were officially working, and was bound by the "corporate code" of their military, which often adopts laws form it's respectivde country.

But all in all, I can't see how it would work, from any constitutional point of view.

And weird it is.

I'm not sure what to say really. As a woman, I've always found that a good King Crab dinner might be the price a man pays to lay me- MAYBE. I do understand you and I agree that we shouldn't battle prostitution (it will always be there) so much as we should battle any asshole that enslaves a woman (or man) as case may present.

 

[Liar]

I'm not sure what to say really. As a woman, I've always found that a good King Crab dinner might be the price a man pays to lay me- MAYBE. I do understand you and I agree that we shouldn't battle prostitution (it will always be there) so much as we should battle any asshole that enslaves a woman (or man) as case may present.

Aye. My issue here is not as much about prostitution. And, from what I've seen, the best results in battling trafficking, white slavery et al have been in places where prostitution is legal, but strictly regulated to protect sex workers from unfair exploitation. But that's another discussion. We've had threads on that.

My issue is really about the fact that here's a law that extends outside of its own country. Goes against the sovereignity of nations and all that. 'When in Rome' is not just a proverb. It's a legal necessity.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Aye. My issue here is not as much about prostitution. And, from what I've seen, the best results in battling trafficking, white slavery et al have been in places where prostitution is legal, but strictly regulated to protect sex workers from unfair exploitation. But that's another discussion. We've had threads on that.

My issue is really about the fact that here's a law that extends outside of its own country. Goes against the sovereignity of nations and all that. 'When in Rome' is not just a proverb. It's a legal necessity.

Totally in accord. Slavers of what ever stripe should be buried up to their necks at low tide and let Mother Nature do the job. I really think that the Norwegian Parliament, however noble their intentions, has seriously overstepped their authority.

 

[CharleyH]

Aye. My issue here is not as much about prostitution. And, from what I've seen, the best results in battling trafficking, white slavery et al have been in places where prostitution is legal, but strictly regulated to protect sex workers from unfair exploitation. But that's another discussion. We've had threads on that.

My issue is really about the fact that here's a law that extends outside of its own country. Goes against the sovereignity of nations and all that. 'When in Rome' is not just a proverb. It's a legal necessity.

I understand.

 

[freshface]

For what it's worth, the US has laws like this. It's against the law for Americans to have sex with children anywhere in the world. Americans have been successfully prosecuted in the US for what they did in Thailand. Not saying it would be an easy law to enforce, though.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

But that was because what they did was also illegal in Thailand. This isn't quite the same situation because in the central Eurozone, it's a consenting adults thing.

 

[CharleyH]

But that was because what they did was also illegal in Thailand. This isn't quite the same situation because in the central Eurozone, it's a consenting adults thing.

Just observing, but yes.

 

[freshface]

But that was because what they did was also illegal in Thailand. This isn't quite the same situation because in the central Eurozone, it's a consenting adults thing.

True, but they are still being tried in the US for actions that they took elsewhere. I'm not saying Norway's law is a good one, just saying that laws like it exist.

 

[DesertPirate]

So a Norwegian cop on vacation is supposed to bust a countryman for "window shopping on Canal Street" in Amsterdam ?

 

[Svenskaflicka]

But that was because what they did was also illegal in Thailand. This isn't quite the same situation because in the central Eurozone, it's a consenting adults thing.

Nyaaaaaah... if it was CONSENTING, she wouldn't make him pay for it.

I'm for enforcing the laws of the own country across the borders, but I agree that it will be extremely difficult to make it work in reality.

 

[Liar]

For what it's worth, the US has laws like this. It's against the law for Americans to have sex with children anywhere in the world. Americans have been successfully prosecuted in the US for what they did in Thailand. Not saying it would be an easy law to enforce, though.

But that was because what they did was also illegal in Thailand. This isn't quite the same situation because in the central Eurozone, it's a consenting adults thing.

Was gonna ask about that. The age of consent in Italy is 14 (says Wikipedia anyway). What happens if an American adult have sex with a 14 or 15 y.o in Italy?

I mean, besides general embarrassment if it becomes public.

And what if the youngster is also a US citizen? Any difference? I heard it said that it might be illegal in some states, to cross a state border to a state with lower consent age with the purpose of screwing.

 

[Liar]

Nyaaaaaah... if it was CONSENTING, she wouldn't make him pay for it.

Depends on your definition of censent, I suppose. I agree that fun and/or love is by far the preferred reasons to screw. But who are we to dictate to other people what reasons they choose for doing stuff?

 

[oggbashan]

Was gonna ask about that. The age of consent in Italy is 14 (says Wikipedia anyway). What happens if an American adult have sex with a 14 or 15 y.o in Italy?

I mean, besides general embarrassment if it becomes public.

And what if the youngster is also a US citizen? Any difference? I heard it said that it might be illegal in some states, to cross a state border to a state with lower consent age with the purpose of screwing.

Locally we had an example: A UK ex-serviceman emigrated, with his wife, to the US and joined the local police. He had to apply for a pardon for under-age sex because they had married when he was 18 and she was just 17. Their first child was born before her 18th birthday.

In the UK such a marriage is perfectly legal, with the consent of the woman's parents, any time after her 16th birthday. In the state in which he became a police officer, sex with someone under 18 is illegal, so technically he had committed a crime.

Og

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Depends on your definition of censent, I suppose. I agree that fun and/or love is by far the preferred reasons to screw. But who are we to dictate to other people what reasons they choose for doing stuff?

I think that it's immoral to have sex for any other reason than being horny.

 

[Huckleman2000]

Locally we had an example: A UK ex-serviceman emigrated, with his wife, to the US and joined the local police. He had to apply for a pardon for under-age sex because they had married when he was 18 and she was just 17. Their first child was born before her 18th birthday.

In the UK such a marriage is perfectly legal, with the consent of the woman's parents, any time after her 16th birthday. In the state in which he became a police officer, sex with someone under 18 is illegal, so technically he had committed a crime.

Og

This is why it's so important to be able to distinguish in one's mind between Law and Morality. While not precisely "Ces't Moi!" any longer, the Law is location. That is the most pernicious effect of globalization.

 

[neonlyte]

Isn't the purpose to simply stop 'cruising'? Norway is notorious for punctuality, cruisers delay the buses.

My familiarity with Norway suggests sex is rarely bought, or sold, but can be a negotiation based in equal parts of drink, food, desire, time and opportunity.

Do the laws extend outside of the country? No more than it possible for the Norwegian police to charge a Norwegian citizen of being drunk in charge of a car in Manchester... if that helps. Now Swedes...

 

[3113]

So, the Norwegian parlament passed a new law, criminalizing sex purchases. You can still sell it, but nobody is allowed to buy.

Damn. So, I have to take back that e-bay bid I made on you?

What happens to foreigners who come to Norway, and have legally purchased ass in another country? Will they be arrested? Probably not. But that would mean that Norweigans and non-Norweigans are not seen as equal in the eye of the law.

Are you saying Norwegians aren't special?

 

[Weird Harold]

Was gonna ask about that. The age of consent in Italy is 14 (says Wikipedia anyway). What happens if an American adult have sex with a 14 or 15 y.o in Italy?
...
And what if the youngster is also a US citizen? Any difference?

The US law is NOT about having sex with children in foreign countries, it is about traveling to foreign countries for the purpose of having sex with underaged persons.

If you are a US citizen traveling to Italy (or elsewhere) on business or as a tourist, you can pick up a girl in the bar without having to check her ID and get three witnesses to her age or worry about being prosecuted for "sex-tourism" when you get home -- unless you're a US serviceman stationed in that country.

If on the other hand, you have reservations to meet a person under the US age of consent -- regardless of the local jurisdiction's age of consent -- before you leave home and then have sex with that person, you can be prosecuted when you return to the US and/oe lose your US passsport for engaging in "sex-tourism."

I heard it said that it might be illegal in some states, to cross a state border to a state with lower consent age with the purpose of screwing.

You're thinking of the Mann Act, which is an old law making it illegal to "transport a woman across state lines for immoral purposes." It was passed in the first quater of the 20th century a tool against "white slavers" (gangsters) who were recruiting "starlets" from all over the world and taking them to California (and elsewhere) to work in porn films or as prostitutes.

". . .In 1917 the provisions of the law {The Mann Act of 1910] were further extended by the decision in the Caminetti v. United States to include even non-commercial sex. . . The result of such decisions was to change a law that had been designed to prevent white slavery to one designed to enforce morals, even declaring private amorous pleasure trips that crossed state lines to be illegal.

The Mann Act isn't just a bit of legal history either:

Federal prosecutors might charge New York's Democratic governor, Eliot Spitzer, under a relatively obscure — and controversial — 1910 law that was originally intended to combat forced prostitution and "debauchery." Its official name is the White Slave Traffic Act, but it's better known as the Mann Act, named after its author, Rep. James R. Mann (R-IL).

In recent years, the Mann Act has been used selectively. But it has not faded into irrelevance. Last week, four people suspected of running the Emperor's Club — the prostitution service that Spitzer allegedly frequented — were charged with violating the Mann Act, among other crimes including money laundering.

 

[manyeyedhydra]

Yuck. More stupid morality laws.

Sadly seems to be a recent trend in what I thought were previously sensible and liberal countries (Netherlands )

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Yuck. More stupid morality laws.

Sadly seems to be a recent trend in what I thought were previously sensible and liberal countries (Netherlands )

So hold your pulse and watch the pendulum swing. You, too, can be Galileo.

 

[Liar]

If on the other hand, you have reservations to meet a person under the US age of consent -- regardless of the local jurisdiction's age of consent -- before you leave home and then have sex with that person, you can be prosecuted when you return to the US and/oe lose your US passsport for engaging in "sex-tourism."

Kind of what I thought. So, since part of the what-would-be-a-crime-at-home was in fact committed at home - the soliciting for underaged company - that part is criminal if it turns out that it was in fact soliciting for underaged sex. ... or something like that, I suppose. But the actual jurisdiction of United States law still ends at the border. At least in this case.

Does it work the same way for adults? If you set up a date with a call-girl before you fly to (let's say) Paris, are you a sex tourist in the eyes of the law when you get back? I mean, since hiring a hooker is illegal in the US.

I just thought of one case that might be similar to this Norway thing - abortions. Isn't or wasn't it illegal for instance for an Irish woman to get an abortion abroad? Or was it the same thing there, and the criminal act was in fact leaving the country with the intent of having an abortion?