Neither Side Gets It Yet.

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aXKDM5XYuYfE&pos=9

Neither side yet understands that America needs jobs...period.

With employment people deposit money in banks and make house payments & car payments and buy stuff. They also pay taxes when they have jobs.

GOP tax cuts dont help if you make no money to owe taxes on. It helps the folks who already have plenty of money.

Obama stimulus money merely helps union bureaucrats and union autoworkers and banks that loan the money back to Obama.

 

[Stella_Omega]

yep.
And you can't afford to buy at Walmart when the job you had doesn't exist anymore because Walmart only buys out of the country.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

WAL-MART is cutting its own throat. Management is using advertising to schmooze customers with the LOW PRICES crap, but I discovered its a ruse.

Like...a bottle of 2 cycle engine oil is $2.99 at WAL-MART and 80 cents at DOLLAR WORLD. A pack of cable-ties are $3.99 at WAL-MART and $1.00 at DOLLAR WORLD....and the pack contains twice as many as WAL-MART.

 

[Epmd607]

We complain about wal mart, but the dollar stores are taking over the landscape. All the old grocery stores and hardware stores are freaking dollar stores now. Bums me out more than a new walmart in my village.

 

[Stella_Omega]

We complain about wal mart, but the dollar stores are taking over the landscape. All the old grocery stores and hardware stores are freaking dollar stores now. Bums me out more than a new walmart in my village.

Your hardware and grocery stores were forced out of business because of the market expectations that Walmart created. The dollar stores merely take advantage of that.

 

[DesertPirate]

Wal-Mart lost what little soul they had when Sam died. It has been a steady drop since then.
I was an assistant manager back then but I left before Sam did.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Wal-Mart lost what little soul they had when Sam died. It has been a steady drop since then.
I was an assistant manager back then but I left before Sam did.

WAL-MART's competition is getting organized and gonna clean their clock soon. A new grocery chain just moved in and is kicking WAL-MARTs ass; WINN-DIXIE owns the new kid.

 

[TE999]

The jobs that once defined America's employment base no longer exist in any volume...farming, steel, automobiles, mining, shipbuilding, aircraft construction, etc. Between automation, offshore industries, cheap immigrant labor and high wages it's not practical to employ large numbers of workers outside of retail and Federal, state and local governments.

Retraining into technical fields or early retirement are the only options for most workers over 40-50 yoa.

Prepare yourselves for unemployment figures in the mid to high teens...and a growing dissatisfaction among the populace with the status quo.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

The jobs that once defined America's employment base no longer exist in any volume...farming, steel, automobiles, mining, shipbuilding, aircraft construction, etc. Between automation, offshore industries, cheap immigrant labor and high wages it's not practical to employ large numbers of workers outside of retail and Federal, state and local governments.

Retraining into technical fields or early retirement are the only options for most workers over 40-50 yoa.

Prepare yourselves for unemployment figures in the mid to high teens...and a growing dissatisfaction among the populace with the status quo.

My point is we could use the stimulus money to build the most modern steel mills and refineries and cathouses in the world. We could do a Manhattan Project for energy independence. There's no limit to what we might have done with the money. But we shot our wad for bankers and Wall Street gamblers and appeasement of China.

Its like a handjob at the drive-in.

 

[WRJames]

The loss of jobs is stuctural and probably permanent.

When I was doing my MBA I took two courses in accounting. The first one was how to keep your books. Pretty straightforward stuff. The second was called Cost Accounting, and it covered things like how to allocate overhead, value inventory, etc. This is where things start to get fuzzy. The way a business values its inventory and accounts receivable has a big effect on the declared bottom line (so much so that in later courses that taught us how to evaluate a business we were told to look strictly at cash flow).

Anyway, the instuctor for this second course made a very telling point, and one which gives a lot of insight into what is really going on. During good times, corporations all need to look good to keep their stock prices up, so they hide a lot of problems. As soon as someone declares recession, they clean up their books by writing off bad debts and unsellable inventory.

The same applies to jobs. Corporations are using this "major recession" as an excuse to clean house. Most of the things they are doing are things they have wanted to do for years. But now they have an excuse. We are in a "major recession". No one is going to question why they are making layoffs. But don't think the layoffs are directly linked to the recession. They are structural and permanent. These jobs are never coming back.

Don't think for a minute that there are enough "high tech" jobs to go around. Job creation will come in some other way, or we will move to a society like Denmark where a large portion of the population is permanently and fairly contentedly unemployed.

 

[lance gt]

Makes me wonder what ever happened to, "We The People..." The system has corrupted itself to the point there is no need for elections, you're going to get fucked by either side. The monies that are wasted by government on crap shoots that don't pan out for the common man to take advantage of, should have been doled out to each individual. $100,000 to each family making under $60,000 would stimulate the shit out of the economy and bail most out of their hardships. That would be too damn easy to do. It would even out the playing field too much, but in essence would actually stimulate the economy to the point where the taxes collected would help to pay for itself. "We the Schmucks..."

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

With full employment the government pays out little for social programs and unemployment compensation, plus it takes in billions of tax dollars.

So who benefits from the present situation? The Chinese. Theyre North America's colonial masters. We buy their stuff and send them our jobs to pay for it.

 

[lance gt]

With full employment the government pays out little for social programs and unemployment compensation, plus it takes in billions of tax dollars.

So who benefits from the present situation? The Chinese. Theyre North America's colonial masters. We buy their stuff and send them our jobs to pay for it.

And they're buying up your corporations as well. It'll be the United States of China soon. You'll be flying the Sicles and Stripes on the flagpole, the old Red, White and Yellow. President Wu-Fang will become the first foreign president and have three terms or more.

 

[amicus]

The jobs that once defined America's employment base no longer exist in any volume...farming, steel, automobiles, mining, shipbuilding, aircraft construction, etc. Between automation, offshore industries, cheap immigrant labor and high wages it's not practical to employ large numbers of workers outside of retail and Federal, state and local governments.

Retraining into technical fields or early retirement are the only options for most workers over 40-50 yoa.

Prepare yourselves for unemployment figures in the mid to high teens...and a growing dissatisfaction among the populace with the status quo.

~~~

Hello TE999...I read your post on this thread earlier and thought to respond, then had to go searching to find it again.

I do not wish this to appear as a criticism, so please do not view it that way. However....D)

Referring to Alvin & Heidi Tofler, who combined to write several books concerning the transition from Industrial to Post Industrial or, 'Service' economies, I want to point out. "...farming, steel, automobiles, mining, shipbuilding, aircraft construction..." that those jobs and industries naturally fell away as America continues to transition economically and the Industrial base will never return.

Trying to keep or rebuild those industries would be akin to going back to the horse and carriage days prior to the internal combustion engine.

As the Toffler's discussed this in depth, I can only briefly summarize the turmoil of the transition from an agricultural society to an industrial one by referring to England where the factory and manufacturing industry replaced the small farming economy prior to that transition.

There are still those who yearn for the pastoral Dickensonian days of the past and carry a hatred of the Industrial Revolution that replaced it.

That same turmoil exists with the decline in Unionized Labor that fought to resist the passing of the Manufacturing age in America and retain the blue collar jobs that many had held for a lifetime, or even generations.

The world is ever changing, TE, and this new age of a Service Economy, is having its' own share of difficulties as the market place attempts to deal with the changes.

No one can predict the shape of the future and the efforts by the old Union mentality and the past several administrations to retain a vestige of the past, is hindering the transition and causing much pain and disruption.

To facilitate the arrival of the future without destroying the individual freedom of those who will bring it about should be the direction of Government, not to attempt to 'preserve' the past as it once was.

If the current trend of larger and more invasive governmental interference continues, we may well drop back, not to just the Industrial age, but the pre Industrial age with a great loss of human life and much misery as we have to relearn how to grow and preserve our own food.

regards...

Ami

 

[lance gt]

What Obama needs to do is the same thing Roosevelt did in the 30's. Re-invent and re-build America. With the auto industry in such a sad state, America should re-invent the car and the roads it travels on. Rail service hasn't changed for 200 years, even China has MagLev trains. Putting money into the infra-structure and pioneering a vital industry that has global impact make better economic sense than flimsy make-work projects.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

AMICUS

You miss the issue entirely. Seventeen and one-half percent of America is out of work.

With respect to your pie in the sky futurists, people need to work to pay their bills. The US Government has been known to create commercial marvels, like the Panama Canal, the Internet, the interstate Highway System, and other creatures that enriched our commonwealth without becoming socialist money pits.

I cant think of one goddamned reason we cant spend 787 BILLION Dollars to modernize America as opposed to giving the effing money to bankers, Wall Street, and the unions/bureaucrats.

America needs energy independence. We could do it! We could build steel mills and refineries no one could equal. But all we've done is privatize dividends and socialize losses, and put 7.3 million Americans out of work while we talk silly shit advocated by the Randists and Toflers and Marx.

 

[TE999]

With government in the saddle, the economy can only continue to founder. Remember the Soviet Five Year Plans? For every dollar the government confiscates in taxes and 'redistributes', a dollar is removed from the pool of investment capital that could provide meaningful jobs. Then we need some cockamamie federal program to create jobs which requires more taxes...It's the snake eating it's own tail.

As an example, FDR and his posse fiddle-fucked around with the economy from 1931 to 1941 and things went from bad to worse until WWII, when necessary mass-production caused a six year 'false dawn' in employment. We didn't really get our heads above water economically until the mid-50's. We've had booms and busts since then, but have never been this close to absolute bankrupcy as we are now.

What's the government's solution to our crisis? Assume control of as much of the economy as they can grab; so they can reward their friends, punish their enemies and above all, get re-elected so they can do more damage.

 

[amicus]

AMICUS

You miss the issue entirely. Seventeen and one-half percent of America is out of work.

With respect to your pie in the sky futurists, people need to work to pay their bills. The US Government has been known to create commercial marvels, like the Panama Canal, the Internet, the interstate Highway System, and other creatures that enriched our commonwealth without becoming socialist money pits.

I cant think of one goddamned reason we cant spend 787 BILLION Dollars to modernize America as opposed to giving the effing money to bankers, Wall Street, and the unions/bureaucrats.

America needs energy independence. We could do it! We could build steel mills and refineries no one could equal. But all we've done is privatize dividends and socialize losses, and put 7.3 million Americans out of work while we talk silly shit advocated by the Randists and Toflers and Marx.

~~~

JAMESBJOHNSON, I will continue to respect and admire your uncanny ability to get to the heart of psychological matters, but you are in over your head concerning macro economics and your conversion from Left to Right, whenever is was, was incomplete.

Energy independence is sorely needed, yes, but not by Government and the green weenie revolution. Turn the existing energy industry loose and America will have ample energy supplies much faster than any 'not for profit' government debacle.

There have been applications for new refineries submitted for years, the idiots in the EPA continue to deny the requests.

The 'fuel tax', had it not been raided by local, State and Federal Parasites, could easily have maintained and created new transportation methods to keep pace with state of the art technology. It is the avarice of government at all levels and the idiocy of Union Labor that has prevented a rejuvenation of the rail system in the US.

I am somewhat surprised at your blase' attitude concerning the failure of FDR's big government projects that either failed or were found to be against the law and left the country in a depression for over a decade.

You are wrong, James, completely wrong. I can get you some books to read if you are a Democrat>(Kristin Scott Thomas to Harrison Ford, "Random Hearts")

Amicus

 

[JackLuis]

Wait until 2012 when the shit really gets deep.

 

[Dragonlipz]

[/I]

~~~

JAMESBJOHNSON, I will continue to respect and admire your uncanny ability to get to the heart of psychological matters, but you are in over your head concerning macro economics and your conversion from Left to Right, whenever is was, was incomplete.

Energy independence is sorely needed, yes, but not by Government and the green weenie revolution. Turn the existing energy industry loose and America will have ample energy supplies much faster than any 'not for profit' government debacle.

There have been applications for new refineries submitted for years, the idiots in the EPA continue to deny the requests.

The 'fuel tax', had it not been raided by local, State and Federal Parasites, could easily have maintained and created new transportation methods to keep pace with state of the art technology. It is the avarice of government at all levels and the idiocy of Union Labor that has prevented a rejuvenation of the rail system in the US.

I am somewhat surprised at your blase' attitude concerning the failure of FDR's big government projects that either failed or were found to be against the law and left the country in a depression for over a decade.

You are wrong, James, completely wrong. I can get you some books to read if you are a Democrat>(Kristin Scott Thomas to Harrison Ford, "Random Hearts")

Amicus

Mon Ami - you are most disappointing in your know-nothing, inaccurate (most would say lying), and unsubstantiated claims.....
The day you offer some true information instead of lies, FAUX NEWS talking points, Ayn Rand nonsense or outright fabrication will be a revelation for YOU - but you gotta go with whatcha know:
You are, after all the self described 'Glenn Beck of the Sixties'

(I laugh for at least three minutes every time I repeat that crap you posted - I wonder if Glenn Beck feels the same......)

 

[Dragonlipz]

AMICUS

You miss the issue entirely. Seventeen and one-half percent of America is out of work.

With respect to your pie in the sky futurists, people need to work to pay their bills. The US Government has been known to create commercial marvels, like the Panama Canal, the Internet, the interstate Highway System, and other creatures that enriched our commonwealth without becoming socialist money pits.

I cant think of one goddamned reason we cant spend 787 BILLION Dollars to modernize America as opposed to giving the effing money to bankers, Wall Street, and the unions/bureaucrats.

America needs energy independence. We could do it! We could build steel mills and refineries no one could equal. But all we've done is privatize dividends and socialize losses, and put 7.3 million Americans out of work while we talk silly shit advocated by the Randists and Toflers and Marx.

Whoa James! You're starting to make sense! Don't PissOff Mon Ami (the Expert who KNOWS NOTHING!!)
Who posted that last stuff? Surely not you.....Scary stuff when a 'left of Ghengis Khan type like me can sense when a misanthrope like you talks sense.....
baby steps.....don't do too much at once.....your mind can only work rightly for a short time...
You didn't start taking your medication, did you?????

 

[Dragonlipz]

~~~

Hello TE999...I read your post on this thread earlier and thought to respond, then had to go searching to find it again.

I do not wish this to appear as a criticism, so please do not view it that way. However....D)

Referring to Alvin & Heidi Tofler, who combined to write several books concerning the transition from Industrial to Post Industrial or, 'Service' economies, I want to point out. "...farming, steel, automobiles, mining, shipbuilding, aircraft construction..." that those jobs and industries naturally fell away as America continues to transition economically and the Industrial base will never return.

Trying to keep or rebuild those industries would be akin to going back to the horse and carriage days prior to the internal combustion engine.

As the Toffler's discussed this in depth, I can only briefly summarize the turmoil of the transition from an agricultural society to an industrial one by referring to England where the factory and manufacturing industry replaced the small farming economy prior to that transition.

There are still those who yearn for the pastoral Dickensonian days of the past and carry a hatred of the Industrial Revolution that replaced it.

That same turmoil exists with the decline in Unionized Labor that fought to resist the passing of the Manufacturing age in America and retain the blue collar jobs that many had held for a lifetime, or even generations.

The world is ever changing, TE, and this new age of a Service Economy, is having its' own share of difficulties as the market place attempts to deal with the changes.

No one can predict the shape of the future and the efforts by the old Union mentality and the past several administrations to retain a vestige of the past, is hindering the transition and causing much pain and disruption.

To facilitate the arrival of the future without destroying the individual freedom of those who will bring it about should be the direction of Government, not to attempt to 'preserve' the past as it once was.

If the current trend of larger and more invasive governmental interference continues, we may well drop back, not to just the Industrial age, but the pre Industrial age with a great loss of human life and much misery as we have to relearn how to grow and preserve our own food.

regards...

Ami

Mon Ami - Any doubt about your intelligence or your ability to analyze information has been removed by the nonsense you've just posted.....Jeez, did you get past the fifth grade? You would have to learn how to think.....my money is on the rest of us.....we can do without pseudo-intellectuals........we'll wipe our butts with the pages from 'Atlas Shrugged'

 

[penandpaper]

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aXKDM5XYuYfE&pos=9

Neither side yet understands that America needs jobs...period.

With employment people deposit money in banks and make house payments & car payments and buy stuff. They also pay taxes when they have jobs.

GOP tax cuts dont help if you make no money to owe taxes on. It helps the folks who already have plenty of money.

Obama stimulus money merely helps union bureaucrats and union autoworkers and banks that loan the money back to Obama.

Well put.

 

[DeeZire]

What's the government's solution to our crisis? Assume control of as much of the economy as they can grab; so they can reward their friends, punish their enemies and above all, get re-elected so they can do more damage.

What's the private sector's solution to our crisis? Assume control of as much of the economy as they can grab; so they can reward their friends, punish their enemies and above all, bribe the government so they can get rid of regulations that hinder their bottom line.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

AMICUS

Dont try your bullshit with me, old boy. There are oodles of conservatives who believe Ayn Rand was a kookie old bitch and a magnet for kool-aid drinkers of another sort. You are the arch kool-aid drinker in these parts.

The Google guy was on tv yesterday. In a nutshell he said that American 'capitalists' have privatized profits and socialized losses; the 'capitalists' go to the head of the line when money comes in the front door, and go the end of the line when the Devil is to be paid. The whole goddamn economy is operated like Chicago Mobs with a gangster government in Washington. There is not 10 cents difference between ACORN and WAL-MART and HALLIBURTON and JPMORGAN-CHASE.

You need to pull your head from your ass and study real macroeconomics. There is a huge difference between socialism and commonwealth. The National Park Service is commonwealth, the National Forest Service is commonwealth, NASA is commonwealth, the National Weather Service is commonwealth, the Panama Canal was commonwealth, the Coast Guard is commonwealth. Prohibiting competition with government services is socialism. Al Capone is the perfect example of how socialism works.

7.3 million people are out of work. Small business employ's 70% of the workforce but is locked out of the credit market, while the fat cats and elites get all the money they want for the 30% of the market they control. And the fat cats arent hiring right now. What in fuck is the average guy to do when small business cant hire him and big business wont hire him? Revolt? Become a bandit?

America went down this road in 1776. GEORGE let the fat cats control America's economy and create a depression. Americans revolted when GEORGE turned a deaf ear to their petitions.