Need some historical technical help

[Rustyoznail]

Good point about going hard on the opposite crew. You'd want them to help sail the captured ship back. Hadn't thought about that.

See, this is why I visit an erotica site - to learn some history

 

[Voboy]

Good point about going hard on the opposite crew. You'd want them to help sail the captured ship back. Hadn't thought about that.

See, this is why I visit an erotica site - to learn some history

Yes. Sailors were perpetually scarce in every nation, for every type of ship. It wouldn’t do to waste ‘em. One of the first things victorious captains did was try to enlist their erstwhile foes.

We Americans are taught that we went to war against Britain in 1812 over the issue of “them” impressing “our” sailors, but what’s often ignored is that this practice was only necessary because it was so damn hard to get men in the fight against Napoleon, which maintained hundreds of warships at sea at all times, in all weathers, for nearly two decades.

Also, “our” sailors were often deserters from “them” in the first place.

 

[Rustyoznail]

Yes. Sailors were perpetually scarce in every nation, for every type of ship. It wouldn’t do to waste ‘em. One of the first things victorious captains did was try to enlist their erstwhile foes.

We Americans are taught that we went to war against Britain in 1812 over the issue of “them” impressing “our” sailors, but what’s often ignored is that this practice was only necessary because it was so damn hard to get men in the fight against Napoleon, which maintained hundreds of warships at sea at all times, in all weathers, for nearly two decades.

Also, “our” sailors were often deserters from “them” in the first place.

All helping to build my story

 

[TarnishedPenny]

While I certainly agree with Voboy’s thesis, that is not to say that casualties were low, nor that either side refrained from trying to kill the other. Keep in mind that as you were trying to dismast the other ship, his hands were busy repairing the damage – and trying to do the same to you. The battle might have been scientific, but the people kept getting in the way.

Taking HMS Victory as an example, she sailed into Trafalgar with a crew of 821. 57 of them died (including Nelson, of course) and 102 of them injured (many of them presumably permanently crippled) - a ‘butcher’s bill’ of nearly one in five. So casualties were expected. And that was for a good commander, one beloved by his crew. A bad one would’ve done far worse.

On the other side, the first French ship that Victory engaged, the Redoutable, surrendered only after her captain was crippled and 522 of her original 643 were either dead or out of action – just 99 men fit for duty. She was taken as a prize, but sank in a storm soon after.

One of the reasons ships of war usually had more sailors than merchantmen – a lot more - was the unstated but very real acknowledgement that many of them would die in battle. Also, there would be a requirement to repair battle damage under fire (taking more casualties in the process). Lastly, a big crew gave a successful captain the extra hands with which to form prize crews.

 

[Voboy]

While I certainly agree with Voboy’s thesis, that is not to say that casualties were low, nor that either side refrained from trying to kill the other. Keep in mind that as you were trying to dismast the other ship, his hands were busy repairing the damage – and trying to do the same to you. The battle might have been scientific, but the people kept getting in the way.

Taking HMS Victory as an example, she sailed into Trafalgar with a crew of 821. 57 of them died (including Nelson, of course) and 102 of them injured (many of them presumably permanently crippled) - a ‘butcher’s bill’ of nearly one in five. So casualties were expected. And that was for a good commander, one beloved by his crew. A bad one would’ve done far worse.

On the other side, the first French ship that Victory engaged, the Redoutable, surrendered only after her captain was crippled and 522 of her original 643 were either dead or out of action – just 99 men fit for duty. She was taken as a prize, but sank in a storm soon after.

One of the reasons ships of war usually had more sailors than merchantmen – a lot more - was the unstated but very real acknowledgement that many of them would die in battle. Also, there would be a requirement to repair battle damage under fire (taking more casualties in the process). Lastly, a big crew gave a successful captain the extra hands with which to form prize crews.

This is true, but Trafalgar was hardly a typical engagement. A privateer like Russ’ would not have gotten involved in a fight that severe. And more men in any naval battle were wounded by flying splinters than by flying cannonballs.

My point is that though men died, that wasn’t ever the “goal.” The warrior ethos back then was very different than now.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

This is true, but Trafalgar was hardly a typical engagement. A privateer like Russ’ would not have gotten involved in a fight that severe. And more men in any naval battle were wounded by flying splinters than by flying cannonballs.

My point is that though men died, that wasn’t ever the “goal.” The warrior ethos back then was very different than now.

Quite so. Capture of the vessel and its cargo and weapons was always in mind and, using the Royal Navy as an example, the prize court system encouraged that, some might say to the detriment of absolute crushing victory in a modern sense.

The splinters of course were caused by the cannonballs. I don't suppose it much mattered all that much to the casualties in question.

 

[Voboy]

The splinters of course were caused by the cannonballs. I don't suppose it much mattered all that much to the casualties in question.

Certainly not. I was hoping to give Russ some insight in terms of his original question. The ships themselves, by their nature, were full of anti-personnel devices, just waiting to be unleashed.

It was a hard business. Plus disease, bad water, rank meats, shipwreck... I'm happier in this century, thanks. Still, one good prize could set a man up for life owning a quiet pub in the countryside. So, there's that.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

I think it was Dr Samuel Johnson who remarked, "No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned."

On the other hand, as you so correctly note, there was prize money. The admiral of the fleet in question received one-eighth of whatever the prize court awarded, with the captain of the vessel getting a quarter. A three-eighths share was divided among the officers, warrant officers and petty officers, with the last quarter going to the rest of the crew. If I recall it correctly, every Navy ship in sight at the time of the capture shared the prize money in the same proportions. That might not seem like much, but in one spectacular case, each seaman received the equivalent of 10 years' pay.

A privateer working under a British letter of marque would operate under the same system.

 

[oggbashan]

Prize Money

From Wiki:

Perhaps the greatest amount of prize money awarded was for the capture of the Spanish frigate Hermione on 31 May 1762 by the British frigate Active and sloop Favourite. The two captains, Herbert Sawyer and Philemon Pownoll, received about £65,000 apiece, while each seaman and Marine got £482–485.

The prize money from the capture of the Spanish frigates Thetis and Santa Brigada in October 1799, £652,000, was split up among the crews of four British frigates, with each captain being awarded £40,730 and the Seamen each receiving £182 4s 9¾d or the equivalent of 10 years' pay.

 

[Voboy]

From Wiki:

Perhaps the greatest amount of prize money awarded was for the capture of the Spanish frigate Hermione on 31 May 1762 by the British frigate Active and sloop Favourite. The two captains, Herbert Sawyer and Philemon Pownoll, received about £65,000 apiece, while each seaman and Marine got £482–485.

The prize money from the capture of the Spanish frigates Thetis and Santa Brigada in October 1799, £652,000, was split up among the crews of four British frigates, with each captain being awarded £40,730 and the Seamen each receiving £182 4s 9¾d or the equivalent of 10 years' pay.

I'll translate in modern dollars.

Sawyer and Pownoll: over $13.9 million each.
Their lower ratings: between $103,105.56 and $103,747.29

Can't forget those 29 cents.

Thetis/Santa Brigada: total prize was $77,510,657.35

You see why men fought so hard to capture the vessels, and fought even harder to get them to the nearest prize court. There was a VERY famous secret operation afoot in 1804 to capture an incoming Spanish fleet loaded with specie to be paid to France, an operation legendary enough that the capture formed a tantalizing subplot of both Hornblower's and Aubrey's careers. Ships who heard about the operation flocked to get within sight of the engagement between Commodore Graham Moore and Don Jose de Bustamante.

The catch was that Britain hadn't declared war on Spain at the time. Oopsy.

Assessed value of the prizes' cargo, was astronomical, over 4 million Spanish dollars in coin alone. In the end, the crews only split 900k pounds, since most of the prizes were ruled illegal. The British captains promptly sued, and the 900k was bumped up to 1.6 million pounds. the captains each got 15k (over 1.5 million dollars now), and most didn't even come within gunshot of the enemy.

The biggest part of that story, in contemporary accounts, was that one of the Spanish ships sank after her magazine blew up. This was considered a great tragedy, and not because of the loss of life; that was just thought of as bad luck. She sank with 17 tons of coin aboard in gold and silver. An American company found the wreck and salvaged the coins in 2007, but the Spanish government sued. Successfully... partly because they hadn't been at war when the British sank the ship.

 

[eroticstoryspinner]

I’m starting a story set in the early - mid 1700’s about an English Privateer raiding the Spanish merchant fleet. The ship is a civilian in a sixth-rate frigate configuration, but specifically fitted out with anti-personnel weapons.

I’ve done a bit research on ships and weapons of the era, but I’d like someone more knowledgeable to look at the details.

***edit*** or is there somewhere else to ask that question?

Any takers?

Thanks

If you want to get some flavor of the general period, I would recommend the works of CS. Forresters, Hornblower and Patrick O'Brian's Aubrey/ Martin series. The ones set earlier are IMO better than he later ones when both characters got some rank on them.

 

[oggbashan]

For real life version try, Cochrane's Memoirs of a Fighting Captain:

http://downloadbooks.live/list/7026155/books-s1s11744894s-1ss2s8a39c248s-2s

 

[ChloeTzang]

I don’t think anyone’s mentioned this one but read “A Pirate of Exquisite Mind” by Alex Rutherford. It’s about William Dampier and around the time you were writing in I think.

 

[Rustyoznail]

Thanks all. Looks like I’ve got a bit of “normal” reading ahead of me.

The background history is going to take a bit to sort out, but it’ll be fun.

Voboy - I’ll definitely take up your offer a bit down the track.

Cheers