Need advice for a friend

[blulilacgrl]

Okay so I am asking this on behalf of a friend. She had a question that I just don’t know if I answered it properly and would love to have your thoughts on the matter.

So… A has started dating a guy that she really likes. He is fun and sweet and she is pretty much over the moon about him. Except, she is a little worried about some of his sexual proclivities.

She is pretty sure that he is into BDSM, but she has not asked the question outright.

As she related to me, he has been a little rough and very dominant with her. That was not a problem. It was when, while having some postcoital cuddling, she start teasing him a little. He put a hand on her neck and slapped her cheek a little (not to hard but not gently either). He then slapped her breast and nipple hard while stuffing her panties in her mouth (again not hard, and she could breathe, but it made her feel a little more helpless). After, when she took them out, he did smile and say ‘you can take them out now’.

For the most part she has been okay with the things they have done up to now, although she has had to remind him to be more gentle~ to be a little easier with the spanking and biting. She has made it clear that she is not interested in abuse or pain during sex.

So her question was:

Is that still sex play or should she be worried that this guy might be abusive?

Now my thoughts were that from an outside perspective certain BDSM practices can appear to be abusive. The difference lies in consent. If she is all good with it, then no not abusive but if she has said ‘no’ and he continues then it is abusive. I told her that one of the tenants of BDSM was SSC ~ safe, sane and consensual. Consent being the big thing.

I recommended she have a serious sit down with him and that if he really is into BDSM then he should understand the concept of hard limits (although shouldn’t everyone get that?). But she is concerned that perhaps she is overreacting OR that maybe she is misunderstanding something.

I offered to post this for her as she doesn’t feel comfortable talking about these things but could really use the advice. Does anyone else have any thoughts or advice that you feel could help her?

 

[Stella_Omega]

Unless there is informed consent, it's not acceptable. No, she is NOT overreacting, especially if she's had to remind him more than, say, three or five times to not hit so hard.

You gave her good advice.

gee, I wonder where this guy got his (hot, admittedly) ideas from, that never mentioned prior negotiation?

*coughdamnyou50shades*

 

[blulilacgrl]

I just want to clarify. I am just wanting to know if I gave her the right advice.

I will admit that I am a bit concerned. While I totally get that some people are into this (Heck, I would be okay with a good bit of this stuff) she is uncomfortable with it. Which seem like red flags to me.

The more she talks, the more I feel like I should have told her to walk away. While she finds some of it exciting, she is mostly uncomfortable and worried about it.

Did I give good advice? Did I forget to tell her something important? I wanted her to get as much good advice as possible.

*ETA~ thanks, Stella. It does sound pretty hot, doesn't it? The whole time she was telling me this stuff, I was like 'uh huh.. and the problem is...' That is when she told me how uncomfortable it made her and such.

 

[CutieMouse]

She apparently likes him being a little rough and dominant during sex from what you said.

His behavior is that of someone who is being a little rough and dominant during sex.

And?

If she doesn't like being slapped in the face, or he's doing something too hard, all she has to do is say so. If he ignores it (continues being rougher than she's okay with) or discounts her opinion (that's too hard / no it isn't)... they might not be a good match.

But I wouldn't automatically label the guy abusive just because he enjoys things she doesn't...

 

[luvnmyboys]

It does sound on the rough side. It really boils down to whether or not he is respecting her wishes. If she is telling him to stop and he isn't, then she should get out now. I do think that there should have been some conversation about the rough stuff before it happened. It sounds like a fairly new relationship and I wouldn't dive in like that without asking about the person's preferences. I think your advice was good and probably what I would have said in the situation.

 

[BiBunny]

She apparently likes him being a little rough and dominant during sex from what you said.

His behavior is that of someone who is being a little rough and dominant during sex.

And?

If she doesn't like being slapped in the face, or he's doing something too hard, all she has to do is say so. If he ignores it (continues being rougher than she's okay with) or discounts her opinion (that's too hard / no it isn't)... they might not be a good match.

But I wouldn't automatically label the guy abusive just because he enjoys things she doesn't...

That. ^^^^

And, also, just because somebody likes rough sex doesn't necessarily mean they're into BDSM and all the terminology and accepted techniques and crap that go along with it.

 

[desertslave]

I agree with Stella and the OP. If there is consent from this point on, it's all good. If not, it's a no go and the friend should find someone safer (for them).

 

[IrisAlthea]

That. ^^^^

And, also, just because somebody likes rough sex doesn't necessarily mean they're into BDSM and all the terminology and accepted techniques and crap that go along with it.

This.

If she thinks he is getting to rough often, that might become an issue further on though, so I don't think talking about it is a bad idea. Just not from the angle that it is either "formal" BDSM or abuse. To him it might just be hot crazy monkey sex.

 

[may_I_please]

If they are at the early stages of a relationship and he is already ignoring her hard limits, after she's told him, then I think I would advise her to run.

If she wants to see the relationship continue then she needs to sit him down and be honest. Sounds like she likes control / dominance but not pain or humiliation - which is fine. She should tell him and she should be clear on whether its a hard limit or a soft one. If its not what he wants he will move on.

ETA: do you think she was telling you to gauge whether it was "normal". She may not actually be confident enough in her sexuality to know whether she actually does like it, did you mention that its the kind of thing you like?

 

[blulilacgrl]

Again, thanks you guys for the advice. I have sent her a link to this thread and I believe she is keeping an eye on the responses.

may_I_please~ She does know that this would be right up my alley and yes did ask if this was acceptable behavior. I tried to explain that it didn't matter if it was acceptable to me or to anyone else. If it was not acceptable her, then it needed to stop. As I said, she believes he is into BDSM (she has not confirmed this thought though) and so came to me to see if it would be considered normal sex play. Unfortunately being rather new to this, I feel nervous giving advice without then directing her to a place where she can get the thoughts of people who know more than I.


I think she is afraid that this (not listening to her thoughts or limits on pain and such) is an indication of possible future abusive behavior not that this particular instance rises to the level of abuse. Does that make sense?

All I could tell her is that if he won't listen to her, if he continues to disregard her thoughts/limits, then perhaps this is not the relationship for her~ even if he is a great guy otherwise.

 

[Netzach]

This isn't just "some guys are actually Dominant." Please.

I like to hit people in the face.

Amazingly I didn't have to be reminded by a FWB more than once, the first and only time I went for it "no, not my face." Cook, I resumed doing whatever to his bum.

Amazingly I didn't confuse him with another guy who LOVES being hit in the face or assume anything one way or the other simply because I think it's hot. He didn't, he wasn't some kind of TPE slave to me, end story.

"Can you be less rough" is not something that needs a post-it on the computer monitor in the AM. It's a one-shot thing. If the person doesn't take it seriously IMMEDIATELY then they are probably bad fucking news. He's already "forgotten" more than once, yes?

I think she's right to be concerned, not so much over what it is he wants to do, but about the evident selective hearing. The rights of the person not wanting it rough trump the boner of the person wanting to be rough, period. What and where he wants to hit isn't the point.

 

[sophie_l]

Its a conversation that really needs to be had outside of the bedroom.

I also don't fully understand something you said - she apparently is 'okay with everything they have done' but wants him to be more gentle? So is she okay with it, or does she want him to be more gentle? Its definitely something she needs to talk to him about, and something she needs to say OUTSIDE the bedroom. It would be hard, in the heat of the moment, to say 'I want you to spank me, but not that hard, and I do like when you're a bit rough, but don't be too rough' etc etc. Especially if she isn't sure if she likes it or not - the right reaction to a light slap will make him think that its okay for him to do that. He might not feel like he needs to hear the specific words saying its okay if she is making all the right noises and seems to be enjoying it.

Make sure she clarifies in her mind what she is trying to tell him her limits are before she tries to communicate them to him. And tell her to be really clear. As in, explicit details are needed - its not something where the line can be blurry.

I wouldn't be too worried just yet, because it sounds as if neither of them have been communicative enough. When they've had that conversation, then we can judge him properly

Hope it works out okay.

 

[Primalex]

Implement the color-coded safe-wording (I would suggest 4 colors for your friend though - okay, okay borderline, not okay borderline, stop right now or it's jail time)

If he ignores this system, then abort the relationship.

Everything else is way too ambiguous. That's somehow the point of DsSM - that "No, please no" does not necessarily mean "No, please no".



Somehow I think the question is more along the line of:"Is it okay to slurp? I think he is from Asia."

And all the various ways you could answer this question, the question of your friend can be answered. ("Well, what does it matter, if he is in the UK?", "How often do you have to remind him to not slurp?", ...). To sum it up: We have no clue if he is rude or not or an abusive asshole who is going to rape your friend's ass or just checking out her limits.

 

[IrisAlthea]

Again, thanks you guys for the advice. I have sent her a link to this thread and I believe she is keeping an eye on the responses.

may_I_please~ She does know that this would be right up my alley and yes did ask if this was acceptable behavior. I tried to explain that it didn't matter if it was acceptable to me or to anyone else. If it was not acceptable her, then it needed to stop. As I said, she believes he is into BDSM (she has not confirmed this thought though) and so came to me to see if it would be considered normal sex play. Unfortunately being rather new to this, I feel nervous giving advice without then directing her to a place where she can get the thoughts of people who know more than I.


I think she is afraid that this (not listening to her thoughts or limits on pain and such) is an indication of possible future abusive behavior not that this particular instance rises to the level of abuse. Does that make sense?

All I could tell her is that if he won't listen to her, if he continues to disregard her thoughts/limits, then perhaps this is not the relationship for her~ even if he is a great guy otherwise.

Now I'm confused.
What I got from your earlier posts was that he did stop and go gentler when she said so. That she had to say it several times, I assumed to be because of different pain tolerance for different bodyparts, times, activities.
If he really is ignoring a clear "I don't want you to do that again" or "that's definitely to hard/rough/wron/creepy" I think it's better to give up on it but as I said, I'm still not sure if there has been clear communication yet.

 

[blulilacgrl]

As I said earlier, I gave my friend a link to this thread so she could follow the responses. This is her response...

"so I'm reading the thread responses...to be clear, we has a discussion seeing some limits previously. No pain, no blood, no urine, no scat. I made clear that pain does not turn me on. And I do think that the reminders I've had to give so far were clarifications of that....in other words, when he bites, he is not sure how hard is too hard.

The slap on the face did not hurt...the nipple slap did. I never said no hitting. I didn't think I needed to.

the gist I'm getting from the responses is, that if I'm clear with him that I don't want to be hit, and he does it anyway (again) that that's when I should be worried, yes?

I think my concern comes more from the fact that it wasn't during sex, it was afterward, during what seemed like joking and teasing...and yet, if course, we were still naked and tangled. And I do of course realize that if dominance gets him off, it doesn't necessarily end with orgasm.

Like I said, though, any reminder i\I've had to give were more clarifications on my earlier instructions....how much spanking is too hard, how hard of biting is allowed, etc.The belt scared me a bit, but he didn't pull it hard and after, when he asked if had been ok, I said it scared me, and he said it was supposed to, a little. But he did ask if it was all right. And after he always asks if I'm ok and if I liked it." ~ for clarification... during sex he put his belt around her neck. Not to choke but more to hold in place, she says.

 

[Stella_Omega]

This guy has great ideas, just saying...

 

[blulilacgrl]

This guy has great ideas, just saying...

I know, right?!

 

[subwannabe]

Maybe I'm not the best one to answer posts like this but I feel inclined to anyway. Maybe I'm old fashioned but it seems to me that someone is pretty naive if they have just started dating someone, feels "over the moon" about him in that short of a time frame and then worries about his behavior. There are red flags all over the place with this guy. If you have to continually try to comprehend this guy to see if you should be worried or not then you should be very, very worried.

"the gist I'm getting from the responses is, that if I'm clear with him that I don't want to be hit, and he does it anyway (again) that that's when I should be worried, yes?

NO! That is not the gist and you should not be worried. You should be running out the back door! I guarantee you that you have only seen the tip of the iceberg with this guy. He is testing his short term limits but has more and more in store for you as the relationship continues and he will be slick about it. Before you even know what has happened you will be trapped and will find it hard to get out. I say get out now before it is too late. If you like to be dominated you can find other guys who you won't have to be "worried" about.

 

[BiBunny]

I never said no hitting. I didn't think I needed to.

*Facepalm*

 

[blulilacgrl]

*Facepalm*

To be fair, she has never been in a relationship like this. She is so pure vanilla she could be used in baking. [laughs] So for her, she has never dealt with someone that would even consider hitting. I think that is why she is a bit nervous and unsure.

 

[Loverskitten]

Here's my main thought after reading the original post.
First of all, I have NEVER dated someone who was into BDSM, kink, or even rough sex, who did not talk about it before we ever got naked. EVERY guy has mentioned these things and not sprung them on me. Many mentioned them before a first date even.

If I had just started dating someone and they put a belt or hands around my neck, I WOULD FREAK THE FUCK OUT! (and I do enjoy that in a trusting relationship)

 

[EvvyFontaine]

If your friend is curious about exploring possible submissive desires, she needs to do so with someone she can trust to respect her boundaries. Believe me, I understand the allure of forceful men with strong personalities, but there is a vast amount of difference between consensual kink play and abusive manipulation.

The top three things she should ask herself are:

Do I feel safe? (If no, GET OUT)
Do I feel that this is sane? (Not motivated by a desire to abuse. If no, GET OUT)
Do I feel that this person respects my consent or lack thereof? (If no, GET OUT)

If your partner does not ask before engaging in kinky behavior, they are not likely to respect your boundaries or your consent. Bad news bears. Run quickly and don't look back.

 

[BiBunny]

To be fair, she has never been in a relationship like this. She is so pure vanilla she could be used in baking. [laughs] So for her, she has never dealt with someone that would even consider hitting. I think that is why she is a bit nervous and unsure.

Well, here's the thing: I'm completely confused by what she wants, based on the posts. It kinda sounds like she is confused about what she wants or doesn't want as well. If that be the case, then I don't know how much we can blame dude for not putting his feet right every time when trying to navigate that particular minefield.

I don't have a dog in the fight, so to speak, but I'm wary of hollering "Abuse!" and "Red flags!" when it comes to dealing with nervous newbies. If she doesn't know what she wants or how to articulate it, then how should he know? No pain, but it's ok if he spanks her or bites her? But no hitting? I mean, isn't spanking hitting?

I can understand the guy being confused by the mixed messages he's getting and making a bunch of mis-steps, is all I'm saying.

 

[EvvyFontaine]

I don't have a dog in the fight, so to speak, but I'm wary of hollering "Abuse!" and "Red flags!" when it comes to dealing with nervous newbies. If she doesn't know what she wants or how to articulate it, then how should he know? No pain, but it's ok if he spanks her or bites her? But no hitting? I mean, isn't spanking hitting?

I can understand the guy being confused by the mixed messages he's getting and making a bunch of mis-steps, is all I'm saying.

The problem here is that from what I could gather, he did not have any kind of conversation with her at all about possible kinky bedroom behavior. Regardless of whether or not she may be sending mixed signals, you shouldn't put your hands on someone in a way that can be construed as violence unless you are dead fucking certain that they want that. Dominance play is not one of those 'well let me do this and see if you like it' things.

 

[BiBunny]

The problem here is that from what I could gather, he did not have any kind of conversation with her at all about possible kinky bedroom behavior. Regardless of whether or not she may be sending mixed signals, you shouldn't put your hands on someone in a way that can be construed as violence unless you are dead fucking certain that they want that. Dominance play is not one of those 'well let me do this and see if you like it' things.

Like I said before, just because he likes rough sex doesn't mean he's into BDSM. So he might not be up on the accepted practices, etc.

I'm not trying to make excuses for him. I just know that there are a good many more people in the world who are into hair-pulling and ass-smacking and general rough sex than there are people who are into complicated bondage and counting cane strokes and "Yes, Master"-ing.