Natural Reactions

[Kailey_86]

Do you punish or get angry about natural reactions? Have you ever been punished for a natural reaction?

For example: i read this in someobody's blog. This sub was being used as a footstool. She was naked and the air conditioner was blowing. She started shivering from the cold and her Dom told her to stop shivering. He placed a full glass of wine on her back and told her she would be punished if the glass fell. This could be a fun game but in a way i don't think this was fair. Shivering is the body's way of warming up. If i were cold enough to shiver, i don't think i would be able to stop shivering.

Another example: my Dom LOVES to tickle me. One of my most ticklish spots is my neck. He will tell me to keep my hands at my sides then he'll go at it. i can keep my hands still for maybe 5 seconds before they shoot up to my neck for protection. i CANNOT keep them at my sides. This isn't something he punishes me for usually. He just keeps demanding me to keep my hands at my sides but i just can't do it. The first example is more of what i am talking about in this thread though.

 

[leeroy jenkins]

As of yet I haven't done anything that merited punishment. But in your first example I would say you shouldn't be punished. I think the dom is not taking care of his sub in that example. Though I am sure there are Dom/mes out there that would do this.

As for the second I have in one scene with these 2 lady tops been told not to move and when I did one of them used a paddle or similar object to spank me thus getting me to move even more. It wasn't real punishment but in the scene it sorta was.

 

[Quint]

..............

 

[Kailey_86]

But I've never been a big believer in the concept of "fair" as applied to sex.

That reminds me of the saying "all is fair in love and war." Same can be said for sex i guess. i wouldn't mind being punished for a natural reaction if it were in play. It would bother me if J were disappointed for me not following a command because of a natural reaction.

 

[leeroy jenkins]

That happened to me when I was a buffet a few months ago. Nerves or cold, I was fighting to keep from convulsively shivering the entire time. T and the more interesting people there would add to the dilemma by piling additional candies on me in precarious spots and T kept count of how many fell off by the end of the night.

I don't think it was unfair to punish me for that. Just like if I were given a large glass of water and not allowed to relieve myself--sure, the body does what the body does, but that doesn't mean there aren't consequences. But I've never been a big believer in the concept of "fair" as applied to sex.

Well who ever said life was fair has to be rich beyond us mere mortals. I do agree that everything has some sorta consequence be it positive or negative. But some things like shivering is an uncontrollable response where as bladder control isn't.

 

[the captians wench]

That happened to me when I was a buffet a few months ago. Nerves or cold, I was fighting to keep from convulsively shivering the entire time. T and the more interesting people there would add to the dilemma by piling additional candies on me in precarious spots and T kept count of how many fell off by the end of the night.

I don't think it was unfair to punish me for that. Just like if I were given a large glass of water and not allowed to relieve myself--sure, the body does what the body does, but that doesn't mean there aren't consequences. But I've never been a big believer in the concept of "fair" as applied to sex.

That's the thing for me. Jounar some times doesn't play fair, but it adds to the fun of the game I think.

The only example I can think of off of the top of my head is a game we play where I have to send him pics. I get a certain amount of time, lets say 10 mins, and I'll be told to send 10 pics to his email in that amount of time. He will have some certian criteria for the pics and some I will have a bit of freedom over, but all have to be "sexy as hell". *giggles* If I do not meet the time limit, or the pics are not satisfactory (that part hasn't happened as of yet) then I get time on the tacks, usually the same amount as my time limit. So we're playing one night and I send the pics off with 5 mins to spare. 3 mins left and he hasn't recieved the email yet, so I send it again. 1 min left he still hasn't recieved it, so in a panic I asked to file share and was denied. 5 mins after my time limit he still had not recieved the email and so I would serve the tack time. I was still wondering why he had not recieved the emails when last time he recieved them rather quickly. So he checked a few things and figured out that I was blocked off of his email list. I told him that I didn't think that was fair, and I didn't think I should have to do the tack time. He said tough, and that no one ever said he'd play fair, and so I laughed and served my time.

every time he asks if I'm up to playing that game I ask if he intends to cheat. *giggles* It wasn't fair, but it was a lot of fun.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I'm with Quint on this. I guess it depends where you are coming from and whether you are into games and play, or whether you take it all more seriously. Fair is not a word which is appreciated around here, and early in our relationship I had a dizzy spell and fell down the stairs which resulted in breaking my tailbone. Regardless, I was expected to get dressed quickly and drive for 16 hours that day and several following, and also lectured for not taking appropriate care of his property. His reasoning behind not taking care of his property was I had been having dizzy spells for awhile and had not sought out medical advice as he had asked me to do, so my falling down the stairs and ending up with a permanent injury was an indirect result of disobedience, which for him said I did not place the safety and health of his property as a high prority which was unacceptable. Similarly, if he orders me to remain still while he is beating me, no matter how hard or whether it draws blood, and I move because I cannot stop myself, I am punished for doing so and it is clearly not play, nor a matter of fair or not fair.

Catalina

 

[JMohegan]

That happened to me when I was a buffet a few months ago. Nerves or cold, I was fighting to keep from convulsively shivering the entire time. T and the more interesting people there would add to the dilemma by piling additional candies on me in precarious spots and T kept count of how many fell off by the end of the night.

This is a truly delightful mental image. Thanks for sharing.

I've played games similar to this many times, and of course there are consequences. That's why it's so damn entertaining to watch her struggle!

For something like this, though, my personal M.O. would not be to refer to the consequences as "punishment", and I wouldn't act disappointed or angry when she slips up. Because the truth is, I wouldn't be angry. I'd be having a great time! Therefore, I'd either be adding to the tension with mock sternness, or grinning & teasing in anticipation of the inevitable.

 

[Kailey_86]

This is a truly delightful mental image. Thanks for sharing.

I've played games similar to this many times, and of course there are consequences. That's why it's so damn entertaining to watch her struggle!

For something like this, though, my personal M.O. would not be to refer to the consequences as "punishment", and I wouldn't act disappointed or angry when she slips up. Because the truth is, I wouldn't be angry. I'd be having a great time! Therefore, I'd either be adding to the tension with mock sternness, or grinning & teasing in anticipation of the inevitable.

Yeah, this is what J does when it comes to tickling. It's a lot of fun both for him and for me. i like to be spanked, love it actually, and that is usually the "punishment" if i move when told not to.

 

[JMohegan]

Yeah, this is what J does when it comes to tickling. It's a lot of fun both for him and for me. i like to be spanked, love it actually, and that is usually the "punishment" if i move when told not to.

My "consequences" are often unpleasant for her because, after all, I'm a sadist.

 

[Vessira]

I had something kind of like this happen the other night. Was tied up, rather tightly and no wiggle room and told I had 30 minutes to get out, or he was going to leave me like that overnight. After about 20 minutes of struggling (I'm usually pretty good at wiggling out of his ties) I realized it just wasn't possibly in the time allotted. The only possibly way to get out of the ties would have been to chew thru the ropes (not my idea of a fun snack) but I couldn't even reach any of them because of my positioning. Well I ended up having a mini-panic attack and broke down crying cause I couldn't get out and it wasn't fair. Now I'm all for being asked to do something difficult, but don't think it's right to be punished for something that's simply not possible. Of course he came and untied me and I didn't get punished. If anything I think he enjoyed more just seeing me squirm under the time restraint and the thought of punishment. But still, next time he challenges me something to do something impossible, I might have to start doing the same to him.

 

[JMohegan]

I had something kind of like this happen the other night. Was tied up, rather tightly and no wiggle room and told I had 30 minutes to get out, or he was going to leave me like that overnight. After about 20 minutes of struggling (I'm usually pretty good at wiggling out of his ties) I realized it just wasn't possibly in the time allotted. The only possibly way to get out of the ties would have been to chew thru the ropes (not my idea of a fun snack) but I couldn't even reach any of them because of my positioning. Well I ended up having a mini-panic attack and broke down crying cause I couldn't get out and it wasn't fair. Now I'm all for being asked to do something difficult, but don't think it's right to be punished for something that's simply not possible. Of course he came and untied me and I didn't get punished. If anything I think he enjoyed more just seeing me squirm under the time restraint and the thought of punishment.

This sounds like a mindfuck constructed around a lie.

But still, next time he challenges me something to do something impossible, I might have to start doing the same to him.

Depending on his personality, he might get the message and adjust his behavior in a do-unto-others kind of a way.

But he might not.

D/s sexuality doesn't exactly have fairness as a key element of the construct. At least, not a sense of fairness as is usually applied in the non-kinky world. He's allowed to tell you what to do, but you aren't allowed to return the favor. The absence of mainstream-style fairness starts from that point, and builds from there.

My suggestion would be to respectfully discuss the incident with him. Does he usually lie during sex or play? Is this the first time he has assigned an impossible task? Was it the combination of the lie and the assignment of something impossible that bothers you, or just one of those things?

If you are feeling resentful, this type of conversation might be helpful to have.

 

[Chicklet]

My ex used to have a rule about moving while he was beating me... and I think it's at least my own natural reaction to try to get out of the way or cover up when there's pain. And with him, there was always lots of pain... So, he'd have me bend over, never tied me up for beatings, and if I squirmed 'too much' - his own standards - then he'd beat me harder, which would make me want to move more. I have to say, it was extremely exciting, and got me really really hot every time. And I'm still surprised at how still I could stand for how long. I don't know if I'd be able to force myself so still for any other reason.

 

[Kailey_86]

This sounds like a mindfuck constructed around a lie.

Is this a bad thing? Aren't most mindfucks based on some sort of lie? i heard about someone else (here on lit, i think) who was told that she was being released even though she wasn't. It was a mindfuck. It was a lie. Mindfucks don't work without lying in one form or another, right? i don't have much experience with this so maybe i am wrong but this seems to be the case most of the time.

 

[JMohegan]

Is this a bad thing? Aren't most mindfucks based on some sort of lie? i heard about someone else (here on lit, i think) who was told that she was being released even though she wasn't. It was a mindfuck. It was a lie. Mindfucks don't work without lying in one form or another, right? i don't have much experience with this so maybe i am wrong but this seems to be the case most of the time.

The answer to each of your questions is: Not necessarily. As with most things, it depends on the terms of the relationship and the personalities of the participants.

Click here for an example of a mindfuck without lying.

 

[catalina_francisco]

The answer to each of your questions is: Not necessarily. As with most things, it depends on the terms of the relationship and the personalities of the participants.

Click here for an example of a mindfuck without lying.

I guess it depends on your understanding of lying. For me, if someone says they can't make any promises as Marquis did in this particular situation, it is still deception, or lying, because he could make promises given he knew he had washed and dried the sheets...if he didn't know himself whether they had been cleaned, then it would not have been a lie, but he did know, so for me it is still a lie, albeit a vague one letting the other to decide what the real truth is.

F has used mindfucks without lying in the sense he has said he is going to do xyz to me, gotten me in a state of panic or anticipation and then not done it when I was expecting, pointing out when I mention it that he didn't say 'when' he was going to do it, I had assumed that, and that yes, he will at some point do it and he has kept that promise.

Catalina

 

[JMohegan]

I guess it depends on your understanding of lying. For me, if someone says they can't make any promises as Marquis did in this particular situation, it is still deception, or lying, because he could make promises given he knew he had washed and dried the sheets...if he didn't know himself whether they had been cleaned, then it would not have been a lie, but he did know, so for me it is still a lie, albeit a vague one letting the other to decide what the real truth is.

His statement was accurate.

He could not respond to her exclamation about the sheets because to do so would have spoiled the very mindfuck in which he was engaged.

This type of mindfuck is not an outright lie (as in Vessira's example). Nor is it a lie of omission (as in your example with F).

Instead, this type of mindfuck is a game, and one at which Marquis appears to be quite good. As he wrote in the conclusion to that post, "she's forced to keep guessing, knowing that the answer is available to her within the facts I've given her, like a good mystery novel."

 

[catalina_francisco]

His statement was accurate.

He could not respond to her exclamation about the sheets because to do so would have spoiled the very mindfuck in which he was engaged.

This type of mindfuck is not an outright lie (as in Vessira's example). Nor is it a lie of omission (as in your example with F).

Instead, this type of mindfuck is a game, and one at which Marquis appears to be quite good. As he wrote in the conclusion to that post, "she's forced to keep guessing, knowing that the answer is available to her within the facts I've given her, like a good mystery novel."

We will just have to agree to disagree because for me it is a lie to say you cannot tell someone if something is so when you know the answer very well at that point, and for F, he didn't lie by omission, he just told me he was going to do a particular thing to me, which I assumed would be that day but which in fact was planned for the future and did happen...I never asked when, I just assumed. If any were lies by omission, I would say Marquis' would closer fit that description perhaps but I still see it as a lie in the moment because he knew the answer but hinted the truth was opposite to what was expected and agreed upon. Answering with the truth might have spoiled the mindfuck, but that does not change the fact he lied when he knew the answer so the mindfuck was continued.

Catalina

 

[ownedsubgal]

I'm with Quint on this. I guess it depends where you are coming from and whether you are into games and play, or whether you take it all more seriously. Fair is not a word which is appreciated around here, and early in our relationship I had a dizzy spell and fell down the stairs which resulted in breaking my tailbone. Regardless, I was expected to get dressed quickly and drive for 16 hours that day and several following, and also lectured for not taking appropriate care of his property. His reasoning behind not taking care of his property was I had been having dizzy spells for awhile and had not sought out medical advice as he had asked me to do, so my falling down the stairs and ending up with a permanent injury was an indirect result of disobedience, which for him said I did not place the safety and health of his property as a high prority which was unacceptable. Similarly, if he orders me to remain still while he is beating me, no matter how hard or whether it draws blood, and I move because I cannot stop myself, I am punished for doing so and it is clearly not play, nor a matter of fair or not fair.

Catalina

the same goes in this house..."fair" has no relevance to anything when you're speaking of slavery.

i can't relate to the "games" and atmosphere of fun or play referred to by some, but i can say that regardless of the situation, if my body's natural responses/reactions cause me to do something which i was told explicitly not to do, i will be punished and rightly so.

there have been times when i have been told not to cry, and been beaten, totured, degraded, etc., to the point where tears were inevitable. as as the tears came, my suffering was increased for the disobedience...which only increased the tears....could be a vicious neverending cycle until i looked hard within myself and found the strength of will to just STOP crying. however even in an impossible situation, such as not shivering in the cold, a punishment is still warranted because the Master's will was not followed.

 

[JMohegan]

We will just have to agree to disagree

Fair enough.

 

[Kailey_86]

....however even in an impossible situation, such as not shivering in the cold, a punishment is still warranted because the Master's will was not followed.

Yes, i guess that's right. In the vanilla world it would not be fair but that's not what we're talking about here. IMO, as soon as the submissive gives consent, anything and everything becomes fair. So, i take back my original comment.

 

[JMohegan]

Yes, i guess that's right. In the vanilla world it would not be fair but that's not what we're talking about here. IMO, as soon as the submissive gives consent, anything and everything becomes fair. So, i take back my original comment.

There's a whole lot of ground to be covered between the "vanilla world" and a relationship such as osg's.

Though the parameters may differ from the mainstream, the vast majority of D/s relationships do embrace some concept of fairness, albeit in varying degrees.

For example, most D/s couples would say that it's not fair for the Dominant to ignore the submissive's safeword.

Not all D/s relationships are TPE, and for those that are not there are boundaries which are unique to the relationship itself. Essentially, these boundaries determine what is considered fair and what is not for each of the participants - both the s and the D.

 

[Kailey_86]

There's a whole lot of ground to be covered between the "vanilla world" and a relationship such as osg's.

Though the parameters may differ from the mainstream, the vast majority of D/s relationships do embrace some concept of fairness, albeit in varying degrees.

For example, most D/s couples would say that it's not fair for the Dominant to ignore the submissive's safeword.

Not all D/s relationships are TPE, and for those that are not there are boundaries which are unique to the relationship itself. Essentially, these boundaries determine what is considered fair and what is not for each of the participants - both the s and the D.

This is true too. Good point. Hehe, ok, i take back my last 2 comments.

Whether something is fair or not depends on what the individuals themselves deem as fair. i still don't think that the shivering example is very NICE but it is FAIR because technically i would be going against his demand if i didn't stop shivering. Disobeying a command deserves punishment. If my Dom decides that some offense is punishable, i will accept that as his submissive.

 

[myinnerslut]

i dont think its fair.

i also dont think it matters.

A once had me tied so i was exposed to him. he then threw everything he had into making me cum. i asked for permission to cum (i am not allowed to cum without his permission) but recieved no answer. i begged to the best of my ability. still no answer. and A was still trying his hardest to make me cum. eventually he succeeded and try as i might i just couldnt hold back. even as i was cumming i started asking for forgivness. i had tried my hardest not to cum, but was still in the begining of my orgasm control training and just couldnt stop myself. i was in tears, asking to be forgiven for cumming without permission. A untied me, still no response. i thought that i must be in so much trouble. i had cum and now he wasnt even talking to me. after this was over, he reached over and wrapped his arms around me. he told me i wasn't in trouble and that he wouldnt have stopped until i had cum. he wanted to see how i would react to cumming without permission. my cries of "not fair" fell on deaf ears.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

Well who ever said life was fair has to be rich beyond us mere mortals. I do agree that everything has some sorta consequence be it positive or negative. But some things like shivering is an uncontrollable response where as bladder control isn't.

actually, i don't agree..bladder control does eventually become uncontrollable if held too long, not to mention the health problems that go along with 'holding it' bladder infections, UTI's, ect..... and i don't think it's 'right' at all to punish for a natural body reaction, sure Master could have fun with something like that, but be actually punished, to me, does not seem right at all....but i am also one who sees a difference between punishment and play..and we don't do 'play punishments' so maybe that's where my opinion differs *shrugs*