Natural Antibiotics

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Well, this is true. You will never fight strep throat with salt water. Also, the sore throat is usually the cause of the common cold, which is a virus.

Whether or not salt has antibiotic properties is really not an argument that I want to fight right now simply because I do not feel like looking up the resources to prove my point. And besides, I never said that it's an option for therapy. I just merely pointed out that it may help.

Remember, we're on the same team in this debate. Pretty much everything JBJ says is "hogwash," to speak his language. So, as a licensed pharmacist in the state of Georgia, I will continue to state my opinion that salt has slight antibiotic properties. And likewise, as a whatever kind of licensed profession you are, you can continue to state your professional opinion that it does not.

His flank is turned and his position is untenable. He's trying to shovel shit against a tide that's 3000 years old. You kiddies walk outta grad school believing youre God or Hillary, and your learning is just starting. Most of what you know youll toss away as crap.

 

[Christopher2012]

His flank is turned and his position is untenable. He's trying to shovel shit against a tide that's 3000 years old. You kiddies walk outta grad school believing youre God or Hillary, and your learning is just starting. Most of what you know youll toss away as crap.

I was a C student, and I'm a retail pharmacist. So, I don't believe I'm anything except a slightly knowledgeable person about medicine. I know pharmacology and OTC therapy. I'm not clinical and I have no specialty. I oftentimes refer to my job as "Accuracy Specialist" because basically what I do is make sure what my pharmacy dispenses is accurate. And I also counsel on how to take medications, I consult people who have minor illnesses, and I can make a decision of whether they need to be seen by their primary care physician or if they need immediate care.

I also am certified to immunize and trained for basic life support in case of emergency.

I get paid so much to be stomped on by corporate for not measuring up to the standards of a business model. I get paid to be the one who has to make every decision and to accept responsibility if a mistake is made.

I'm far from perfect and I have very little experience when it comes to clinical pharmacy. But my argument is this... If I were that experienced to be a clinical pharmacist then why not just become an MD?

I knew what I was doing when I went to college. I knew exactly wanted and I knew what I needed to do to get there.

 

[drunkenphilosophy]

Well, this is true. You will never fight strep throat with salt water. Also, the sore throat is usually the cause of the common cold, which is a virus.

Whether or not salt has antibiotic properties is really not an argument that I want to fight right now simply because I do not feel like looking up the resources to prove my point. And besides, I never said that it's an option for therapy. I just merely pointed out that it may help.

Remember, we're on the same team in this debate. Pretty much everything JBJ says is "hogwash," to speak his language. So, as a licensed pharmacist in the state of Georgia, I will continue to state my opinion that salt has slight antibiotic properties. And likewise, as a whatever kind of licensed profession you are, you can continue to state your professional opinion that it does not.

Hallelujah, finally, the voice of reason. And a pharmacist at that.

Yup, we're definitely on the same team. And since you obviously know your stuff, I'm going to be wee bit technical and ask, no offense intended, if we should classify salt as a weak antimicrobial instead of an antibiotic? Especially since it only works in vitro, it crenates/dehydrates primarily, no specific action, yada yada...that's my two cents, at least.

But I concede, that's just me nitpicking, and I respect your opinion wholly. Slight antibiotic properties? I'll shake on that. Now please don't think me rude, but I have been meaning to bail out of this cray-cray thread, so this drunkard is leaving this bar right about now. Thanks for your input!

 

[Christopher2012]

Hallelujah, finally, the voice of reason. And a pharmacist at that.

Yup, we're definitely on the same team. And since you obviously know your stuff, I'm going to be wee bit technical and ask, no offense intended, if we should classify salt as a weak antimicrobial instead of an antibiotic? Especially since it only works in vitro, it crenates/dehydrates primarily, no specific action, yada yada...that's my two cents, at least.

But I concede, that's just me nitpicking, and I respect your opinion wholly. Slight antibiotic properties? I'll shake on that. Now please don't think me rude, but I have been meaning to bail out of this cray-cray thread, so this drunkard is leaving this bar right about now. Thanks for your input!

Well yeah, you're technically right. I'm throwing around the word "antibiotic properties" for two reasons: 1.) microbiology and infectious disease were the two hardest classes in pharmacy school and 2.) I'm dumbing it down to just say "the potential to kill bacteria."

But you're right on all levels. And you obvious know your stuff.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I was a C student, and I'm a retail pharmacist. So, I don't believe I'm anything except a slightly knowledgeable person about medicine. I know pharmacology and OTC therapy. I'm not clinical and I have no specialty. I oftentimes refer to my job as "Accuracy Specialist" because basically what I do is make sure what my pharmacy dispenses is accurate. And I also counsel on how to take medications, I consult people who have minor illnesses, and I can make a decision of whether they need to be seen by their primary care physician or if they need immediate care.

I also am certified to immunize and trained for basic life support in case of emergency.

I get paid so much to be stomped on by corporate for not measuring up to the standards of a business model. I get paid to be the one who has to make every decision and to accept responsibility if a mistake is made.

I'm far from perfect and I have very little experience when it comes to clinical pharmacy. But my argument is this... If I were that experienced to be a clinical pharmacist then why not just become an MD?

I knew what I was doing when I went to college. I knew exactly wanted and I knew what I needed to do to get there.

MDs kill lotsa people. It usta make them crazy when I challenged their judgments. But every time I went in the gladiator arena with them and won, I learned lotsa practical medical knowledge. Over time it adds up. Every mother on this thread knows what I'm talking about. Even pharmacists fuck up. Seen them do it and kill kids.

 

[Christopher2012]

Even pharmacists fuck up. Seen them do it and kill kids.

Well, pharmacists fuck up because pharmacy is about the almighty dollar. You think Walgreens, CVS, and Rite Aid actually care about their patients or employees? HA! We are given impossible metrics to meet. We have so many things going on at one time that even the best pharmacist can fuck up simply because he has to meet the standards of a system that is MEANT to fail. Corporations don't care about the health of their patients. What they DO care about is somehow showing *statistically* that they care so that they can continue to maintain contracts and high stock demand.

A lot of what my job requires is tricking the system to think we're making patients lives healthier. It's a long and tedious explanation on how and why, and honestly, I think I'd get fired if somebody up above me found out I was posting this. So I'm going to quit while I'm ahead.

 

[tonguedancer]

I recognize that I'm coming into this fight rather late and my comment isn't about all the infighting that has been going on, but back to the original post and people in past generations versus infections.

The fact is that many people in the past died from simple bacterial infections and viruses. The average life expectancy hundreds or thousands of years ago was probably about 45 or 50. The infant mortality rate from things we cure easily now like strep throat or measles. Even infected teeth or infections from cuts could result in deth. Just visit a 200 year old cemetary sometime and look at how many children and young adults are buried there.

In the past, it seems that Darwin was the winner. The strongest survived. Those with naturally strong immune systems just lived longer. The weaker in the crowd died. Why did some people surivive the "black plague" in Europe and some not? How does a small percentage of people survive HIV? Some percentage of people just have a greater ability to fight illness. Those are the ones that live, procreate, and hopefully push the strong genes forward. Hundreds of years ago, before birth control, people had a dozen kids hoping that maybe 2-3 would make it to adulthood. Women often died in childbirth. It was a rough time. Yes, there were some natural medicines and even the "fungus" living in soil, moldy bread, spoiled food, fermented fruit, etc might "help" to boost the immune system of some people and help them survive illness. However, many just plain died young of things we routinely cure today. The discovery of penicillin did a lot to extend life expectency.

In some ways, maybe we aren't doing the human race any good by helping the weak to survive. The more we do, the more we become dependent on drugs to help us do it. I'm not God and have no answer to that one. In the wild, only the stongest animals survive and maybe that's a good thing for the long term strength of the species. Tough situation and none of us should play God.

 

[fire_breeze]

I recognize that I'm coming into this fight rather late and my comment isn't about all the infighting that has been going on, but back to the original post and people in past generations versus infections.

The fact is that many people in the past died from simple bacterial infections and viruses. The average life expectancy hundreds or thousands of years ago was probably about 45 or 50. The infant mortality rate from things we cure easily now like strep throat or measles. Even infected teeth or infections from cuts could result in deth. Just visit a 200 year old cemetary sometime and look at how many children and young adults are buried there.

In the past, it seems that Darwin was the winner. The strongest survived. Those with naturally strong immune systems just lived longer. The weaker in the crowd died. Why did some people surivive the "black plague" in Europe and some not? How does a small percentage of people survive HIV? Some percentage of people just have a greater ability to fight illness. Those are the ones that live, procreate, and hopefully push the strong genes forward. Hundreds of years ago, before birth control, people had a dozen kids hoping that maybe 2-3 would make it to adulthood. Women often died in childbirth. It was a rough time. Yes, there were some natural medicines and even the "fungus" living in soil, moldy bread, spoiled food, fermented fruit, etc might "help" to boost the immune system of some people and help them survive illness. However, many just plain died young of things we routinely cure today. The discovery of penicillin did a lot to extend life expectency.

In some ways, maybe we aren't doing the human race any good by helping the weak to survive. The more we do, the more we become dependent on drugs to help us do it. I'm not God and have no answer to that one. In the wild, only the stongest animals survive and maybe that's a good thing for the long term strength of the species. Tough situation and none of us should play God.

I hope that I am not going to start a flame war or anything, and I am truly sorry but I do have to point out a major flaw in your argument. Yes, many people died from curable illness. This is fact, and I am not denying it. However, much much more died from malnutrition, starvation, overwork, terrible living conditions and violence (actually, violence should be number one on the list).

During the times when violence and famine was minimal - and many scholars point out a link - people lived longer. Disease was not as rampant.

Today, many of us in Developed nations live in good health, have enough nutritious food and we are not living in violence. However, in the so-called Developing and 3rd-World regions (Gods, I hate those terms), people have considerable lower life expectancy and it's primary due to living conditions, poor hygiene and above all, certain levels of famine/malnutrition (which, I must point out again, people have always known about) and violence.

The Black Death of the 14th century, the Antonine Plague (2nd C) and Plague of Justinian (6th C) was devastating and happened, intriguingly enough, in times of political unrest. Would they have occurred if there was political stability? Sure. But they would not have spread as rampantly or would have been as lethal. Why? Simple. People congregated in the cities, the sewage systems were blocked, hygiene (which, by the way, they knew about) was not a top priority. The rich, by the way, usually survived it because they were able to afford to be healthy, have better food and better living conditions.

The truth is, it was not only the survival of the strongest. It was the survival of the luckiest and the survival of the richest.

/history lesson.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Gerald Edelman won a Nobel Prize for Medicine proving that every human gets a different prize in her bag of Cracker Jack when it comes to immunity. A very few humans are immune to one disease or another, so that no particular pathogen can wipe out our species. A few are immune to HIV, most likely.

Nature cuts no slack for the rich.

Nature smiles on the immune and the isolated.

 

[Que]

I am not a fan of statements that read begin "THEY don't want you to know about "X"..."

But there are some interesting paradigms at work in us all.

MD's (More so than homeopaths) knowingly prescribe anti-biotics for viral conditions that they KNOW will have zero effect...they HOPE that it will honor the maxim of "DO NO HARM". The haven't the balls to issue an actual placebo, lest they get sued if a course of treatment overlooked was in order. The don't culture because of the expense and because it would provide evidence that theantibiotic was contraindicated.

Homeopaths, shamans, witch doctors and the like either drink their own kool-aid or realize that faith healing has its place. The mind and body can often take care of itself given time and lowering a person's stress level even through chicanery has its value as enzyme levels and hormones change with stress.

Pharmacists are convinced of their omniscience due to the omnipotent blessing of the federal government from the FDA that decides what we can even try to the DEA that decides who can try what. They are taught that with out them counting out the pills and being aware of drug interactions (something a decade old PDR will explain well enough for the layman, let alone modern internet driven resources), Also younger pharmacists I have noticed tend to believe everything behind the magic Formica clad counter reach of the kids and the old infirm ones. In other countries where you can just walk in and describe a symptom and get a "cure' some are western drugs some not. some efficacious some not. the market weeds that stuff out over time.

Big Pharma is ONLY interested in patentable cures and only for 20 years it holds patent. Naturopathic remedies are hard to protect patent wise.

Tree huger believe EVERYTHING can be had from nibbling tree-bark, grazing mushrooms, and drinking wheat_grass juice like a cow chewing cud.

They are all wrong somewhere.

Chris has the hindrance of overeducation, but imagine an old time age when he as a pharmacist, could listen skeptically but with an open mind to the ant-venom idea. As he said neosporin is an excellent broad-sprectrum antibiotic. (as far as "killing GERMS" be it an anti-biotic or a disinfectant... alcohol, peroxide -my brother the MD hates that one-, Bactatrician (sp?), Betadine is a favorite of mine, Iodine, Gentian Violet, and I loved the mercury-containing, Oh-such-a-healing-sting, old school version of monkey blood as we called it mercurichrome. That said, fire ants sting like mercurichrome, so maybe the OP has something. In the old days chris could TRY it...on actual customers...maybe make a poultice of ants, milk 'em...make a tea...thatever...add snake oil and SELL IT. If it works customers will flock, if not, well it was an idea and cheap to try.

We get NONE of these experiments these days.

the liability exposure would make this idea insane.

likey he would get his pharm license yanked for doing a lab's job or an MD's Dx...

Government has NO place in our lives...

If I need ADHD medication I KNOW what sort of stimulant works for me and in what dosage.. BUt NO......I MUST see an MD often, sometimes monthly...then I MUST accept the mark-up of a store thats got to pay chris $120,000 a year because pharmacy school is hard with lots of math and chemistry, something men excel at but we don't admit as many men into undergrad programs to make room for the "underpriviledged" (who now out-number the so called priveledged)

I figure my local pharmacist gets paid about $2000 per year for each pill he counts for me (well and the rest of his customers) every other month. I should be taking 120 x 10mg x 12months of 14,400 mg..instead I consume probably less than 7,000 mg per year...the feds are tracking EVERYTHING we do/say/read/write/buy surely they could spot abusive trends...I am clearly NOT abusing stimulents (less so then the three monster a day crowd) but still I must see the gatekeepers. Insultingly stupid

the SAME drug (dexidrine) was available OVER THE COUNTER as Dexatrim for YEARS until the patent wore out now it is in the same class of drugs as heroin.

SO yeah....THEY don't want anything to be simple.

to the original posters point...(I do eventually get around to things) country folk are regularly and unflinchingly exposed to all sorts of natural occurring, unmodified by selective breading (like MRSA) that happens when excessive antibiotics are used in a populous.

Therefore their immune systems get lots of practice and are in good working order.