Natural Antibiotics

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I'm curious about everything and have a tidge of the natural philosopher in me.

And several months ago I got curious about fire ant bites. For example, how come primitive people and slaves and country folks seem to escape the ravages of sickness city dwellers are plagued with?

The answer I discovered is insect venom. Venom is a natural antibiotic insects use to protect their eggs from biotic predators. And when they bite or sting you, you get a dose of antibiotic in your blood.

Try it sometime with a minor infection. Let fire ants bite you, and see what happens with the infection. Mine go away.

So it makes sense that folks out in the woods are protected by their insect friends.

 

[jimburr35]

I have a bad response

I respond very unfavorably to fire ant bites. Between the inflammation and the pusstular core, I'd probably better tolerate the infection, if I had one.

 

[Christopher2012]

The answer I discovered is insect venom. Venom is a natural antibiotic insects use to protect their eggs from biotic predators. And when they bite or sting you, you get a dose of antibiotic in your blood.

No, this is totally false.

Insect venom (for the most part) does not have antibiotic properties. And even if we teased the idea that this is true, there are thousands of bacteria with different resistances to the different types of antibiotics (beta-lactams, quinolones, aminoglycosides, etc.). Will insect venom cover MRSA? Will it cover anaerobes? These are rhetorical questions, btw. Additionally, if it were true, the medical field would have already been all over this. Modern medicine has pretty much stolen all of the natural meds from Mother Nature already. Surely, we would have caught on to the mysterious and miraculous "Fire Ant Bite Antibiotic!"

A more reasonable answer is that "city dwellers" are densely populated, partially poverty-stricken, and in contact with illness more. It's why we have the Centers for Disease Control (CDC). You can go to their website for up to date information about specific infectious diseases.

 

[Lord Pmann]

A not-so interesting little tidbit of useless information: The only place in Australia that has fire ants is Queensland, and there is a huge government funded program to eradicate them. I've never seen a fire ant.

They hurt like hell. They are the most unassuming little fuckers too. And god forbid you ever get multiples on you. Those bastards all bite at the same time. I've got scars on my feet from just a couple days ago.

 

[Lord Pmann]

I respond very unfavorably to fire ant bites. Between the inflammation and the pusstular core, I'd probably better tolerate the infection, if I had one.

I'm with you. Or I was. I used to have a severe reaction to fire any bites. The ratio was 1:1000. So, for venom diluted down to 1/1000 of an ant's bite, it looked like a normal ant bite to most people. I would break out in hives and be miserable. Oh it was terrible. But I somehow outgrew it when I became a teen. I attribute it to masturbating.

So the next time you have an allergy, try masturbation. Even if you don't get better, hey, masturbation. You might be sneezing and covered in hives, but you'll forget it for a bit.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

No, this is totally false.

Insect venom (for the most part) does not have antibiotic properties. And even if we teased the idea that this is true, there are thousands of bacteria with different resistances to the different types of antibiotics (beta-lactams, quinolones, aminoglycosides, etc.). Will insect venom cover MRSA? Will it cover anaerobes? These are rhetorical questions, btw. Additionally, if it were true, the medical field would have already been all over this. Modern medicine has pretty much stolen all of the natural meds from Mother Nature already. Surely, we would have caught on to the mysterious and miraculous "Fire Ant Bite Antibiotic!"

A more reasonable answer is that "city dwellers" are densely populated, partially poverty-stricken, and in contact with illness more. It's why we have the Centers for Disease Control (CDC). You can go to their website for up to date information about specific infectious diseases.

No, it really works. Ants spray their eggs with venom to kill parasites.

 

[Christopher2012]

No, it really works. Ants spray their eggs with venom to kill parasites.

Parasites aren't bacteria.

OP, you're up there in age, is that correct? You do realize that your circulatory system isn't quite at 100%, right? And when I say "quite at," I mean "nowhere near." At your age, infections are nothing to play around with. You're going to get yourself a Darwin Award if you keep up this game of "Play Doctor."

Your advice for medical treatment is as bad as your advice for how to rape women...

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Parasites aren't bacteria.

OP, you're up there in age, is that correct? You do realize that your circulatory system isn't quite at 100%, right? And when I say "quite at," I mean "nowhere near." At your age, infections are nothing to play around with. You're going to get yourself a Darwin Award if you keep up this game of "Play Doctor."

Your advice for medical treatment is as bad as your advice for how to rape women...

Chris? What are you, 18?

Don't fuck with me with your semantics games and your alt. Huh EMERSON?

 

[Christopher2012]

Chris? What are you, 18?

Don't fuck with me with your semantics games and your alt. Huh EMERSON?

Emerson would seriously take offense to that actually.

I'm 25 with a doctorate in pharmacy. Do you still want to go toe-to-toe about antibiotics or is the fun over with?

 

[GrrlFriday]

A not-so interesting little tidbit of useless information: The only place in Australia that has fire ants is Queensland, and there is a huge government funded program to eradicate them. I've never seen a fire ant.

Let's hope it's better than the cane toad program...

 

[NightL]

Emerson would seriously take offense to that actually.

I'm 25 with a doctorate in pharmacy. Do you still want to go toe-to-toe about antibiotics or is the fun over with?

redemption - can be yours

edit: - that is a goal not an offerring

 

[Lord Pmann]

Eeek, those things are hideous!!!

The toad isn't beautiful, but must you insult that little girl?!?!

 

[Lord Pmann]

Oi! You know that's not what I was saying. SHE is adorable.

Hehe. Yes yes. I know- just being a dickhead. She's adorable. I think the frog is actually cute too.

 

[GrrlFriday]

Hehe. Yes yes. I know- just being a dickhead. She's adorable. I think the frog is actually cute too.

The picture links to a doco about the 'frog' - I'd like to know if you still think they're cute after you've watched all of it.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Emerson would seriously take offense to that actually.

I'm 25 with a doctorate in pharmacy. Do you still want to go toe-to-toe about antibiotics or is the fun over with?

I think you have a LIT BS Degree. But be it true, I've had plenty of interactions with MDs over the years, and I'm not impressed with their funds of knowledge or general competence or their arrogance. My own profession is like a Sahara sand dune, what was Gospel 50 years ago is laughable nonsense today.

BTW I descend from Thomas Bond, America's first pharmacologist and clinical medicine educator. He collected all kinds of shit from the Indians and Caribbean.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Bond_(physician)

 

[Christopher2012]

redemption - can be yours

edit: - that is a goal not an offerring

I'm sorry but your posts are way over my head. I'm not sure if you're insulting me or if it's inside joke. So I don't know how to respond...

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Its useful to think of NIGHTL as the cuckoo bird that pops outta the clock every hour.

 

[Christopher2012]

I think you have a LIT BS Degree. But be it true, I've had plenty of interactions with MDs over the years, and I'm not impressed with their funds of knowledge or general competence or their arrogance. My own profession is like a Sahara sand dune, what was Gospel 50 years ago is laughable nonsense today.

BTW I descend from Thomas Bond, America's first pharmacologist and clinical medicine educator. He collected all kinds of shit from the Indians and Caribbean.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Bond_(physician)

Fine, I'll have to bring out the sources... 'sigh' Pubmed, here I come.

Here's an article on the antibiotic properties of fire ant venom. I got an abstract but I'm not paying for the full article. So there's no way to know specifics. But I've quoted the abstract for you here.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19826319

"Antibacterial activity of synthetic fire ant venom: the solenopsins and isosolenopsins.
Sullivan DC, Flowers H, Rockhold R, Herath HM, Nanayakkara NP.
Source
Department of Medicine, Division of Infectious Diseases School of Medicine, University of Mississippi Medical Center, Jackson, Mississippi 39216-4505, USA. dsullivan@medicine.umsmed.edu
Abstract

BACKGROUND:
We determined the in vitro activity of 9 synthetic fire ant venom alkaloids (+/-)-solenopsin A, (2R, 6R)-solenopsin A, (2S, 6S)-solenopsin B, (+/-)-isosolenopsin A, (2S, 6R)-isosolenopsin A,(2R, 6S)-isosolenopsin A, (+/-)-isosolenopsin B, (2S, 6R)-isosolenopsin B, and (2R, 6S)-isosolenopsin B against 6 species of bacteria (Streptococcus pneumoniae, Staphylococcus aureus, Enterococcus faecalis, Escherichia coli, Stenotrophomonas maltophilia, and Pseudomonas aeruginosa).

METHODS:
The minimum inhibitory concentration and minimum bacteriocidal concentration were determined in accordance with the Clinical Laboratory Standards Institute guidelines. Time kill studies used American Type Culture Collection bacterial isolates tested at 5 times the minimum inhibitory concentration.

RESULTS:
None of the venom alkaloids inhibited E. coli or P. aeruginosa, whereas all the alkaloids inhibited S. pneumoniae. Only 4 alkaloids inhibited S. pneumoniae, S. aureus, and S. maltophilia. Time-kill kinetics indicates that all 4 active alkaloids had bactericidal activity.

CONCLUSIONS:
Specific isomers of synthetic fire ant venom alkaloids have antibacterial activity against human pathogens."


So, what does this mean? Well, first of all, I was technically wrong. Fire ant venom has some antibiotic properties. However, I'm not wrong in saying that it's a stupid idea...

For one thing, we're only talking about "time-dependent" kill kinetics properties, which means that even if this "fire ant biting" therapy were to work, you'd have to do it over and over again for X number of days. That would be hell. Secondly, it's only effective against several forms of fungus and bacteria. S. Pneumo is a gram - strain that usually has nothing to do with skin conditions. Staph aureus is the ONLY thing that we might be considering this ant bite therapy to treat. And would it beat MRSA? I dunno... the article costs money to view. I'm not paying.

Remember, there are hundreds (if not thousands) of different strains of bacteria each with specific resistances and susceptibilities. Likewise, if I were to tour you around my pharmacy, you'd notice that there are hundreds of antibiotic choices, each with it's own range of coverage.

Also, time dependent killing vs. concentration dependent killing are two very different things. Amoxicillin is a great example of time-dependent killing. You take 500mg three times daily for 7-10 days. You need a constant therapeutic concentration for a certain amount of time for it to even work. With this ant bite thing, how do you even know that you're getting the right amount of therapeutic drug? How do you even know it's getting to the infection?

Man, I'm spending way too much time on this. It's a dumb idea. Just go to the local Urgent Care and get checked out if you have a minor infection. Or even better yet, just throw some fucking NEOSPORIN on it. The shit is cheap, comes with three different antibiotics which cover pretty much everything that lives on the skin except MRSA.

Or you could just let fire ants bite you and live in pain... whatever. I'm done.

To the OP:
Trolling level - MASTER
Congrats.

 

[Lord Pmann]

Quit clogging this thread up with your useless facts. Let's just listen to JBJ's "antidotal" evidence. (That's a very clever pun... You fuckers better appreciate it)

JBJ also cures heart attacks with hummingbird jizz.

 

[Christopher2012]

Quit clogging this thread up with your useless facts. Let's just listen to JBJ's "antidotal" evidence. (That's a very clever pun... You fuckers better appreciate it)

JBJ also cures heart attacks with hummingbird jizz.

Yeah man, half way through that, I realized what a horrible waste of time it was. Haha

What upsets me (sarcastically) is that I proved his case for him and he didn't thank me. That asshole!

Now onto providing resources for the use of hummingbird jizz. 'Sigh' back to Pubmed. Ha!

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

People hate it when I'm right.

 

[thesweetsweetness]

I'm almost afraid to post after having read through all the posts... but here goes anyway.

I think the original topic is interesting. So there are thousands of bacteria with different resistances to the different types of antibiotics. Insect venom, specifically fire ant venom, has some antibiotic properties. Then, who's to say fire ant venom isn't the perfect cure for some bacteria? What if a bunch ant venom is a cure for MRSA?? I wonder if there is a way to harvest the venom opposed to having the ants bite?

"Modern medicine has pretty much stolen all of the natural meds from Mother Nature already."

I disagree with this. I feel modern medicine is a bit of a departure from Mother Nature and all she has to offer. I think some people prefer some complicated, lab created concoctions over something more simplistic and homeopathic.


So there's my thoughts. *runs and hides*

 

[Bramblethorn]

"Modern medicine has pretty much stolen all of the natural meds from Mother Nature already."

I disagree with this. I feel modern medicine is a bit of a departure from Mother Nature and all she has to offer. I think some people prefer some complicated, lab created concoctions over something more simplistic and homeopathic.

What Christopher's getting at is that a lot of those lab-created concoctions (around 60% IIRC) are based on things found in nature. Aspirin is the classic example but big pharma still spends a lot of money looking at "natural cures" for something they can use; if fire ant venom has useful antibiotic properties you can bet they'd be interested in that.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I'm almost afraid to post after having read through all the posts... but here goes anyway.

I think the original topic is interesting. So there are thousands of bacteria with different resistances to the different types of antibiotics. Insect venom, specifically fire ant venom, has some antibiotic properties. Then, who's to say fire ant venom isn't the perfect cure for some bacteria? What if a bunch ant venom is a cure for MRSA?? I wonder if there is a way to harvest the venom opposed to having the ants bite?

"Modern medicine has pretty much stolen all of the natural meds from Mother Nature already."

I disagree with this. I feel modern medicine is a bit of a departure from Mother Nature and all she has to offer. I think some people prefer some complicated, lab created concoctions over something more simplistic and homeopathic.


So there's my thoughts. *runs and hides*

Sugar and table salt are antibiotic, too, as are vinegar and Lysol. Even ice has antibiotic properties.

Real progress is always attacked.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Sugar and table salt are antibiotic, too, as are vinegar and Lysol. Even ice has antibiotic properties.

Real progress is always attacked.

Killing bacteria in a petri dish is dead easy. Just about anything will do that.

It's killing bacteria inside a human body, without harming the human, that's the tough part.