Nationalism and patiotism ... huh?

[Liar]

The more I think of it, the less I really understand.

The olympics with all the flag waving and emotional outbursts. Colly's "I love my Country" thread with all the interresting replies. McKenna's über cute flag AV...

Those have fuelled my confusion about this one thing... nationalism. The love for one's country.

Yep. Sure. We love our homeland. I do to. I cheer on out athletes, and think of them as "us". But I can't, when I pause and ponder it, for the life of me figure out why.

To be honest, it's not a better country than other countries. My country is a decent place to live. But so is the US. Or France. Or any other nation with a somewhat working democracy and modern living standards. There are things in my country that I think are the best in the world - while other things sucks ass. On the grand scale, I'd be just as well off if I lived in Finland, Italy, New Zealand or Canada as here in Sweden.

Geography? That is so last century. The blink of an eye takes you across the globe to connect with people. With my education I can probably get a decent job, so that I could afford to travel to any other place on the globe in less than a day if I needed to. The first place I think of as "home" is a small island on the Swedish west coast. My second "home" is Glasgow. (Where I live roght now has never really felt like home) Other places on this blob of land feels more foreign than places actually abroad.

Culture? I have found that I have more in common with people on other comntinents than I have with my neighbors. It's not language either, since I often make myself better understood in English than in my own native tongue.

What do I really have in common with the Swedish athletes in Athens other than that they were born on the same geographical blob as I was? Hell, some of them are not ever born here. Two of our more successful athletes this year heeds to the names Mustafa Mohammed and Ara Abrahamian. Which is great and all, I'm proud of the fact that we are one if the most immigrant friendly country in Europe. But all I really have in common with those guys is...well...paperwork. And still I cheer, and rejoice in their success, because...what? They wear blue and yellow clothes?

Why do we personally feel so connected to those lines on a map? I'm not saying it's wrong - I do it too. I'm just searching for an explanation.


Ok... My far out, woolly musings are over for this time. Reply if you understand what I'm trying to say. If not, just and write some porm stories instead.

#L

 

[cloudy]

Good question.

Maybe it's because it's one of our basic ways of identifying ourselves?

As in McKenna's post on Colly's thread about our flag "fetish", we identify with the athletes as extensions of ourselves, and maybe we like the fact that our athletes are showing us in our (as a nation) best light?

It's competition on a small scale, but a relatively harmless way to "rule"?

I dunno......

 

[CrazyyAngel]

I can't give you a proper answer. For me its the same. Whenever Olympics or scoccer EC's or WC's come around I find myself cheering for our athletes. But other than that I can't say I am very patriotic or nationalistic. Like you said, its a decent place to live, but if I lived in Britain, Italy or Spain I wouldn't be worse of.

So ... apart from telling you that its the same for me I am sorry, but I dont have the answer.

CA

 

[cantdog]

I think it's a part of our house ape heritage. You feel a connection, very close, with your family, however you define it so that it's the closest of the close.

Then your tribe, the sort of people you feel the most bond with. Forget for the moment ther geography. We mean here, the people you identify with on a larger scale than the family.

For hundreds of thousands of years, we, as a species, lived in small, interdependent, connected groups. We have a right, as part of that heritage, to feel most comfortable in small groups, particularly in small groups with a common fate.

Now, we mostly live, in our millions, in cities, populated with far more people than we can really be comfortable with. Walk the street of a big city, and you'll see that most of us scan the people we encounter ONLY. We do not acknowledge them, for the most part. We acknowledge our own tribe. If you were, say, a drug dealer, you would dress and walk, think and therefore act like a drug dealer, just enough so that others of your tribe would know you for who you are.

Freaks, geeks, straights. gays, suffragettes, whiz kids-- all of them know the members of their tribe, most of the time, when they meet them.

The drug dealer also scans for members of the tribe which preys upon them-- cops. And the tribes of drug users upon whom they in turn prey.

But for the sake of their sanity (you get schizoid) you can't genuinely acknowledge that you are living in so impossibly large a troop of apes.

Big-city cool, explained.

Now. Young and callow, you believe in a me-centered morality. Me and them. You have yourself for a tribe. What's good for Me is good; what's bad for Me is bad; what's good for them might be okay, so long as it isn't bad for Me , and what's bad for them is probably good since it means they can't compete so well with Me. Egocentric.

As you mature, spiritually, you suddenly adopt a group as yours, you admit them to the realm of the fully human.

Some people pick religion. Only Christians are really human; the death of a muslim is just tough titty. Some pick a nation. The rulers of modern nation states try very hard, through education, to build a sense of national identity. You see it most clearly in places like Turkey, where there had been no such nation before Ataturk, and he had to invent one that people could identify with, to build a nation-state which would band together to resist common enemies. But all nations do it; they all educate the populace to perceive the distinguishing characteristics of the nationality. It makes running the place a lot smoother.

Some pick a nation. Only Germans (for instance) are fully human, they are Us. There is Us and there is them. What's good for Us is good, etc. group-centric.

Now you mature again, spiritually, beyond patriotism, beyond religionism or whatever group you originally adopted. The whole human race is now yours, you can't avoid it, it suddenly becomes plain that the Vietnamese or the Iraqis are just as human as you are, and their deaths matter to the same extent that your own group's deaths do. You can no longer, morally, pull the switch to launch the Shock and Awe attack.

Human-centric.

Whereas before, in the Us/them state of being, it was utterly moral to pull that switch. Waht's bad for them is good! Morality itself changes as you mature.

Nationalism is therefore childish and inferior to a human-centric person, JUST EXACTLY as the puerile morality of the egotist, who refuses to heed the higher calling of the Nation or the higher calling of the Religion, is inferior to the enlightened Nationalist or Religionist.

In each stage the last stage looks childish and wrong-headed, and at each stage the moral basis changes.

cantdog

 

[Guest]

I think it's a part of our house ape heritage.

You are so way cool, Cant. I love reading your mind.

Perdita

 

[Liar]

So ... apart from telling you that its the same for me I am sorry, but I dont have the answer.

Well, it's good to know that I'm not just plain nuts thinking this way. Or at least not alone in doing it.

#L

 

[thenry]

The thought was epitomized for me in the kayak competition. It seemed that all of the athletes, regardless of origin, lived and trained together in one of three locations: Greece, New Zealand, or Colorado, US. Given that almost everything having to do with country was abstracted, why categorize?

 

[cantdog]

You are so way cool, Cant. I love reading your mind.

Perdita

Thanks, beautiful. Ditto

cantdog

 

[Liar]

Very interresting points there cantdog.

Some people pick religion. Only Christians are really human; the death of a muslim is just tough titty. Some pick a nation. The rulers of modern nation states try very hard, through education, to build a sense of national identity. You see it most clearly in places like Turkey, where there had been no such nation before Ataturk, and he had to invent one that people could identify with, to build a nation-state which would band together to resist common enemies. But all nations do it; they all educate the populace to perceive the distinguishing characteristics of the nationality. It makes running the place a lot smoother.

And that last sentence really summed it up for me.

I am a family member because of sharing intimate emotional experiences with my parents and siblings, forming close bonds at early years. (I mean it's not just genes, or adoptive kids wouldn't love their parents.) I am a punker/nerd/whatever, due to personal choices and a need to identify byself.

But I am a citizen not by any personal trait that I might have in common with other citizens, but by default. A nation-mentality forces other more natual tribes in under the same flag, where people have no more in common than what's in their passport. Everything else, the language, the culture, the lifestule choices... you have to be pretty inbound to not find the common traits with yourself all over the world ever so often. You are fed a few national traits by the insitution of the country you live in, like lanuage use and cultural references. But again, those are because of the nation, the nation is not because of them.

But that's really all countries are, isn't it? Institutionalised tribe-ism, tied for convenience to geographical borders.

My question still stands though: Was it just indoctrination that made me all giddy when the Swede Stefan Holm won the High Jump gold a few days ago?

Are we all in this regard, sheep?

baa baa,
#L

 

[doormouse]

It's a familiarity thing. (For me, anyway)

I hate the Olympics. It's always meant there's nothing good on TV

Still, if it's playing in the background and I hear the word 'Australia', I naturally look up to see how 'we're' doing.

 

[Guest]

I have no feelings whatsoever about the U.S. flag. I do not "love" my country, nor do I hate it or get sentimental over anything patriotic. It's just where I was born and raised, a fluke, an official fact for the census takers. Being American is at the very bottom of my self identity, and is nothing I would take up with pride (not because I am ashamed, but I don't understand associating one's self pride with a place).

I do think of the U.S. flag as more a fetish (non-sexual) than a symbol. I get no special feelings when U.S. athletes win anything anywhere.

When I'm in Europe I'm relieved people do not presume I am an American, and am glad when they find out are surprized. I think this is probably related to the fact that most of my friends all my life have been Black, Latino/a or European.

Perdita

 

[McKenna]

...snip... McKenna's über cute flag AV...

Actually, the AV is just a coincidence with the discussions abounding on the board today. I had this picture I wanted to use as an AV, but thought it looked too "plain." So I had the idea of "red (thong,) white (my skin) and ... why not blue?" So I made the walls blue.

Then I was chatting with a super-talented friend of mine, asking him questions about how to use a photo editing program I have, and the thought came to me about adding stars. He actually did it for me, so I can't take credit, but I am pleased with the result.

But back to your questions...

I can only offer my opinion on this based on my personal experiences. I have lived outside my country, and though the general standard of living was fine and I think I could have lived there reasonably happy, I still chose to come back to the U.S.

I was frustrated in Holland because buying a house seemed to be outside our realm of possibility; I was frustrated that going to University would take me twice as long as it would in the U.S.; I was frustrated by the lack of space. Yadda, yadda, etc. etc. Add it all up I convince my husband to immigrate to America, which he did. I like my standard of living here, I like that we can afford a house and two cars (eeeep, so un-environmental, but when you live in the land of nonexistent public transportation... cringe...) I like that we can afford decent healthcare. (I might also add it took us a lot of hard work in a short period of time to get where we are today.) I might have been born here, but I like to think I also chose to live here.

Via my husband and his job I come into contact with folks from all over the world: Denmark, Sweden, Belgium, Japan, China, Australia, etc. I like to find my common ground with these people, some sense of a shared culture. Usually that "culture" revolves around families or education, or even places we've visited in common. And yes, sometimes I am mistaken to be Dutch, like my husband. I don't take offense, I'm rather proud of him and his heritage. But I'm also rather proud of mine.

As an interesting aside, I was wondering myself if I would consider myself first a Wyomingite, (Wyoming, state where I was born and raised,) and secondly American, or vice-versa. Tough call, and I still haven't made up my mind.

 

[CrazyyAngel]

My question still stands though: Was it just indoctrination that made me all giddy when the Swede Stefan Holm won the High Jump gold a few days ago?

Guess it has to be. What other could it be? It is pure coincidence you live on the same piece of rock as the other swedes ... so actually it can only be indoctrination from your parents, your environment and society.

CA

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

I rather do think my country is better than all the other ones. I think that's part of my nationalism.

 

[OldnotDead]

Sports Nationalism is different

The thread started out asking about Nationalism including the context of sports. I think this is a very different thing than the Nationalism that gets tied up in politics. Cant has elucidated a lot of the fundamental pinings that feed nationalism and how leaders have used it to create an identity. Liar still wonders if the pride he felt makes him a sheep.

When it comes to sports there is a whole different dynamic.

You haven't experienced true Latin Passion until you are in a throng of Brazilian tourists during World Cup when their team wins! As an aside, I will say I am grateful that I was not in a similar throng yesterday.

All the Greeks singing their own national anthem as the flag was raised during the medal ceremony puts our own national pride to shame. I'm a singer and I don't like the way we don't sing.

At the same time, I'm a former athlete and while I take pride in the accomplishments of my fellow countrymen, I am always in awe of the achievements of almost all the Olympians. To consistently perform at such a high level to get there is quite something. To peak at the right time in order to have a personal best is so phenomenal. To achieve all those things and happen to be from the same country is even more rare.

I think part of the excitement of being able to say 'We won a medal' no matter what country you are from is an inate recognition that a lot of things have to happen and it's a pretty special happening. The smaller the country and/or pool of the athletes, the even more special.

Historically the Olympics have featured individual athletes. Team sports are a fairly new phenomenon. Ancient Olympics involved the setting aside of regional conflicts in order to celebrate the accomplishments of individuals. I'm sure they kept score of how many winners were from each city-state, but the focus was on the athlete.

I love seeing each country get excited about the successes of their own athletes. I think sports is an important part of the fabric of society and know that when athletes get that kind of support, sports will continue to be part of each country's activity. That's good.

But what really gets me excited is when an entire arena applauds and recognizes the excellence of any performance. Sure, it's nice to see each country cheer success, but excellence deserves its own recognition. When the gym crowd berated the assinine judges that scored the Russian too low and would not let the event continue was something that I think would make the ancient olympians proud. I've got to believe that the actual number of Russians in that audience was probably the lowest of just about any group represented. Yet the whole place revolted.

There is another aspect of sports and winning that I have always liked and hate it when these stupid do gooders think that little kids should not have winners in sports. Yes, to have a winner there has to be someone that doesn't win. But a winner does not take food or property from the ones that did not win. The next week, or the next day or four years later, the roles may be reversed and often are. In the end, it's just a sport, so when you cheer and are happy or groan and are sad, there WILL be another day.

I'm probably not saying this well, but in sports, particularly olympic sports, there may be losers, but it's not like any of these athletes can even be close to thought of as 'failures'. So I don't think anyone is acting silly when they are proud of a fellow countryman who has achieved such personal excellence. I certainly don't think anyone is some kind of patriotic jingoist because they feel good that someone that is part of group to which they belong has succeeded. I know if I had been good enough to get there and then was even better enough to get to the medal stand, I would be darn happy to think that I might have somebody else glad that I got there, too.

 

[pop_54]

I'm almost embarrassed to admit that I'm a fiercely patriotic and nationalstic Englishman... but then we're all a bit eccentric over here... I hate this modern idea floating about the world that if you're a nationalist patriot, you're some kind of racist... Ok if that's the case, I'm a fucking racist, who gives a shit... I love my country and am proud of its heritage... I also wish we could get out of that bloody European bring and buy sale thing, you know EU or whatever... We aint European, we're English.

 

[Liar]

I'm almost embarrassed to admit that I'm a fiercely patriotic and nationalstic Englishman... but then we're all a bit eccentric over here... I hate this modern idea floating about the world that if you're a nationalist patriot, you're some kind of racist... Ok if that's the case, I'm a fucking racist, who gives a shit... I love my country and am proud of its heritage... I also wish we could get out of that bloody European bring and buy sale thing, you know EU or whatever... We aint European, we're English.

That's cool, pop. You be a nationalist englishman all you want, it doesn't make you a rasist. Didn't start this thread to hack and slash at those who love their country. I just wanted to know why they do.

I'm still wondering. You love England. Good for you. Now: Why do you do that? If it's because it's the best place on earth? If the answer to that is yes, then: Why don't I love England like you do?

#L

 

[amicus]

Interesting thread...good job...good questions...


A few hundred years ago...a drop of time in the bucket of history, the questions you asked would have no meaning. Everyone would know why their 'national identity' was of prime importance.

Although we in modern times do not sense the passage of time, it was not that long ago, in historical terms, from when the Romans conquered England and the Vikings pillaged the rest of the continent.

The Middle East and Southern Europe and Northen Africa, if you did a DNA sample would most likely be a closer match than the people of New York City and San Francisco.

We all came out of Africa, what...? 60,000 years ago, if memory serves....and lived and fought and died and cried over a patch of land we could call our own and protect and defend and nurture and grow.

We became a part of that environment, the plants, the animals, the food, the air, the temperature, the quality of the light the nature of the seasons...it changed those who lived and flourished there...in that 'special' place...be it Sweden, Portugal, Ireland, Turkey, France or Madagascar.

We Americans are late comers to this game....North America is a thing unto itself....only 500 years old...(not withstanding Native Americans),but is a composite of millenia before....there are still Frenchmen in Canada, Russians in Alaska and Spanish in Mexico in Brazil and Portuguese too.

Patriotism in one way is a thing of the past and in another way, an undiscovered country.

Sports...Competition....is a whole other thing...as mentioned in other posts...

Young men compete...that is, I would think without disagreement, in all cultures....

It is the nature of the male of the species...again...a rather self evident assertion....to win...to be the best...to conquer...is not a new thing....

To do so under strict rules of competition...is a new thing, a modern thing..to include the female in that competition is a very new thing...to have separate competition for male and female is also a new thing...

To have the resources to fund that training and that competition is also a new thing...it is a 'national' effort...a people...gathering, contributing...backing the best of the best...is quite a concept, one to be lauded, I think.

There is a malady of 'equality', rampant since about 1917 that has just about ran its course...wherein national pride was politically incorrect in terms of 'one world' under...(choose name).

That 'era' is gone and another has taken its place. Ethiopia has distance runners, Greece has wrestlers, Russians and Romanians have gymnasts, Chinese have divers, Japanese have swimmers, even Iraq has soccer players...much to the chagrin of others.

World competition in athletic events and a free market place for both ideas and products will dominate the next 200 years of future history.

Prepare your children...the future is upon us...


amicus...

 

[fifty5]

Interesting thread...good job...good questions...

Here, here.

I vaguely remember some quotation to the effect that, "Nationalism is the last resort of..." but that isn't close enough for Google to track it down.

Another vague memory is some hierarchy of identification and belonging: first to one's own family, then to one's village, town, county ... and nation - and, of course, other issues, like religion fit in there too.

It seems to me that humans have a genetic trait that values belonging - which shows up as belonging to different groups, large or small, in different contexts.

I also think that cantdog hit the nail on the head, though I'd use the word 'civilised' rather than 'mature' - though since my choice derives from civic - city - that's itself quite a nice contradiction in terms!

My bottom line is that the group or geographical area that I feel I belong to differs according to context - and at the olympics, the way it is set up means I belong to the UK. (Though having said that, I have far more sympathy with individuals, such as Paula Ratcliffe or Svetlana Khorkina, than with my 'own' team.)

Unlike Pops, to me, the England (or UK) grouping feels increasingly irrelevant in any context. To me, the valuable group so often seems smaller (county, city, or town) or larger (Europe, or The World). Those idiots in London usually don't seem to have me in mind, no matter whether 'they' are the Met Office making weather forcasts, or the government passing legislation or (mis)interpretting EU regulations!

Indeed, there are times when I'm more proud to belong to the Lit AH, than to be British.

f5

 

[dr_mabeuse]

The words most aboriginal people use to describe themselves--the name of their "tribe--almost always translates as "human beings". The names they use for other tribes are something else; something less than human.

Nationalism and patriotism come out of that same primitive impulse. That's all. We like what we're used to, and we think it's superior.

---dr.M.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Here, here.

I vaguely remember some quotation to the effect that, "Nationalism is the last resort of..." but that isn't close enough for Google to track it down.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel." Dr Johnson said it, back in 17something.

---dr.M.

 

[shereads]

Well, it's good to know that I'm not just plain nuts thinking this way. Or at least not alone in doing it.

#L

I've asked the same thing of people who are fanatical fans (well, that's redundant, isn't it) of a sports team. What difference does it really make to someone working for minimum wage in Miami, if the Miami Heat has a good year and Shaq earns enough to buy and sell the arena? A lot, apparently. It's like a mini-war between Us and Them every time sports fans square off to watch their armies bloody each other. "It was a slaughter!" That means it was a good game, depending on where you're sitting.

It's not just the vicarious feel-good, but the vacarious "I want the other fans to feel like losers" that is fascinating and disturbing about team sports. I've felt it myself, as a college student - but that was partly just the joy of shouting "COCKS" in a stadium full of other hormone-crazed kids my age - when the Gamecocks won or didn't fumble.

I remember crying when we'd lose a football game, and hating the fans of our rival team.

By my senior year, I had stopped crying and started laughing it off - largely because we never had a season without a major disappointment of some kind, so it was for survival. I suspect that if I'd been the fan of a consistently winning team, I'd have remained a fan for at least a few years longer. But instead, I started cheering myself up after a loss by being glad that there was no misery among the other half of people who'd been in the stadium that afternoon.

I guess that by Cantdog's definition, I had accepted crazed college football fans as part of a tribe of crazies of which I had once been part. I look at them with a certain affection now, and I still yell, "Cocks!" when I hear of an occasional win. But there's no pain in seeing them lose, or euphoria when they win.

It still feels good to yell Cocks, though.

Cocks!



Liar, you are not alone:

"Patriotism is a childhood illness; the measles of mankind." - Einstein

 

[minsue]

Well, it's good to know that I'm not just plain nuts thinking this way. Or at least not alone in doing it.

#L

I've often wondered the same things, so you're probably nuts.

I think that many people need to feel a sense of belonging and to feel as though they're part of something bigger than themselves.

What I've always loved, when it comes to sports, is when the way people refer to their home team depends on whether or not the team did well. If the team was successful, then we won. If not, they lost.

 

[cantdog]

I went to my camp not long after we'd rebuilt the roof (long story). The thing was still just covered with that black roofing tar shit. I had the same jeans I'd worn to lay shingles in the little camp, which had black tar marks on them, and I'd brought the sneaks I'd worn for the roof job with me.

Alas, I had left the key home. No way to get the pants from the locked camp. I still had the sneaks, but nothing else.

My daughter was appalled to hear what I did next, but I'd come two hours, including twenty minutes solo canoeing against the wind, in order to caulk the joints of the chimney (metal-'bestos, for the technically savvy).

So I put on the sneaks, and took off everything else, climbed onto the roof and did the job. No sense getting yet another set of perfectly good clothes covered with roofing cement.

A boatload of anglers did indeed come by, and there, don't you know, I was, wasn't I?

"What're ya doing?" the fellow asked me.

"Caulkin'!"


cantdog

 

[pop_54]

That's cool, pop. You be a nationalist englishman all you want, it doesn't make you a rasist. Didn't start this thread to hack and slash at those who love their country. I just wanted to know why they do.

I'm still wondering. You love England. Good for you. Now: Why do you do that? If it's because it's the best place on earth? If the answer to that is yes, then: Why don't I love England like you do?

#L

Oh it's not the best place on Earth by a long shot, and I wouldn't dream of insisting that anyone else love it if they don't want to... but it is home... and it educated me... and protected me from baddies reasonably well, (although they should never have stopped the shoot to kill policy with the IRA terrorists back in the 80's just cos some ponce in the European court said they should, they should have blown the fucking lot of them away and sorted the problem quicker)... It's all a matter of personal choice and feeling though isn't it... my personal choice and feeling.

I've actually become more nationalist as time's gone by... the more the PC brigade tell me it's bad to be British, (read English in my case) and I shouldn't fly my national flag in case I offend some visitor from another culture who has been invited to live here... The more the Europhiles have told me I've got to become part of a big multi cultural state run by some foreigner in Brussels I can't vote for... The more I've seen the country of my birth and choice of home being run down and berated by pinko's and people that should really fuck off if they don't like it here, (personal choice, live here and like it, live here and hate it, fuck off out of it, but don't keep moaning about it)... The more nationalist and patriotic I've become... It's an aging English pirate thing I think.

As for the government not doing everything to everyone's choice... show me a government that can achieve that miracle... if you don't like the government, vote them out... at least we have that free choice over here, some around the world don't.