N...

[kinked_a_bit]

o...

 

[PaxNurgle]

Israel is attacking violent terrorists who committed unprovoked acts of pure, sadistic evil against unarmed women and children.

Hamas attacked unarmed women and children whose only "Crime" was celebrating life, joy, and freedom at a music event.

I am really sorry you have so much difficulty understanding this one basic point, but sadly you are not alone in this misunderstanding.

You are constantly trying to make Israel the bad guy here, but how did you feel about the U.S. attacking Afghanistan in 2001? Was the U.S. "The bad guys" in that war?

I bet you even supported the war in Iraq in 2003 as well, didn't you. A country that had nothing to do with September 2001 attacks and which never threatened the safety and security of the American homeland.

 

[ll74]

There is no winning party here at the moment.

Terror attack killed a shitload.
Retaliation is killing a shitload.

Check back later

 

[PaxNurgle]

^Basically...That about sums it up.

 

[Chernosoth]

Arms merchants, pundits, cable news, etc.

 

[ll74]

You do realize Israel is slaughtering thousands of women and children like the ones you’re so concerned about, right? Or do they not matter?

And how many dead Palestinians does it take to get revenge for 1400 dead Israelis? 9,000 isn’t enough. Will 90,000 slake your thirst? Will it take 900,000? What’s the exchange rate?

And at what point - for you - will Israel no longer be the good guys? What would that take? Is it even possible?

As for me, I have said from the beginning that it’s a struggle between bad guys and America would be wise to stay out of it.

and why does one group matter over the other?

 

[ll74]

You really should read something before trying to ask questions.

No answer?

 

[Sean Renaud]

Honestly you have a computer, go watch some "Tv" or read something. You are one of the biggest problems in modern day America is that you are proud to be uniformed and rather than seek out the answers from credible sources your hoping a bunch of randos, some of whom are very well informed on their subjects, some of whom are absolute nutters to get you caught up on a fairly complex issue.

What Hamas did is horrible yadda yadda I hate that we have to put that out there every single time we say that Israel is far from innocent in this whole thing. I see someone brought up Afghanistan which in hindsight we fucked up by going in. I was 18 at the time, I didn't know any better but you'd think that the adults would have known this was a terrible, terrible idea. Like the absolute worst. Whether you look at it in the the cost to the treasury, human life in general or just American lives we at the very best ended up in the same place we started and that's being overly generous. Hindsight is 20/20 though. I feel worse about Iraq where even 19 year old me who was about to be shipped there knew good and damn well Saddam didn't have any WMDs.

Anyhow a lot of us have different opinions on what is an appropriate amount of retaliation no matter what was done to you. What we did to the Afghans was wrong. Full stop. It depends on whom you want to ask, and whom you chose to believe but somewhere between hundreds and thousands of Afghans were killed by the US and allies. That's before you even factor in the people who genuinely believed our attacks were unjustified and may have been terrorists but everyday Americans brag about how they would be terrorists in a heartbeat.

We also have differing opinions on what qualifies as unprovoked. Technically speaking the settlements on the West Bank are not sanctioned by Israel and are illegal. Since I don't see them enforcing the law I'm gonna have to call absolutely BS on that story though. History has shown that when you back people against the wall eventually something gives.

There are no good guys in this conflict. There are the absolute monsters that are Hamas mind you but the reason Hamas has the power it does is because the PLO wasn't getting results. I'm not going to claim the PLO was by any means perfect but they were a lot better than Hamas which is what we're dealing with these days.

I personally think it would go a long, long way if America could criticize Israel. This isn't claiming they don't have a right to defend themselves. Though I think we are at a point where we are pretending that vengeance and defense are the same thing. They are not. I assure you they are not. Calling for a cease fire is not calling for an Israeli genocide. It isn't. They claim they are trying to eliminate Hamas but how do you do that? They don't wear uniforms. While they do have a command structure I'm not given the impression any of these men are so special you couldn't slot the next looney into place. I don't honestly care what Hamas wants to do to about destroying Israel. They lack the resources to do so. Giving them weeks, months or even years to rebuild and come back isn't going to change that fact. They might be capable of larger assaults than this but this was years in the making and still only happened because the IDF were busy elsewhere.

I'm not calling for the US to condemn Israel but they could go a tiny bit harder than "Please try harder to only kill bad people. Anyway we got your back no matter what you do. We at least publicly have claimed to neutral but nothing in our posturing gives Arabs and Muslims in general that we are tolerant, specifically the Palestinians have even less reason to think we give a damn when we so very clearly do not.

 

[Sean Renaud]

and why does one group matter over the other?

The issue being made here is maybe you don't intend to but you certainly sound like you don't give a damn about the Palestinians. This is not one group over the other, this is about an innocent being killed is a tragedy whether they are Israeli or Palestinian.

I fully accept the eggs omelets issue when dealing with an enemy that doesn't wear uniforms. If you're gonna do this you have to accept that you don't know who they are and if you're not gonna go surgical and do your best to only kill the leaders then God has to sort them out later.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Unless I made any “statements of fact” that you disagree with, don’t worry about where I get my information.

The main part of that post was logic and analysis, not reporting.

As for Afghanistan, I knew from the beginning they were doing it wrong.

As for Iraq, I saw very early on that America was not willing to do what it would take to get the desired result.

Had they asked me, and listened, we’d have been out of both places in less than a year.

As for Ukraine, that was lost before it began and our involvement has only prolonged it and increased the number who died for nothing.

Those mistakes are unavoidable when cheerleading is more important than thinking… and when war is profitable.

That's the thing, I have to be terrified of where you get your information because far, far too many people get it from terrible sources, have zero media savvy and we wonder how people thought Hillary was running a child sex ring out of a pizza parlour. Or that 9/11 was a hoax.

We mostly got the desired result in Iraq it was just the desired result was bad. Afghanistan, like I said I was 18 and a lot of this happened while I wasn't really part of the world so there is that.

Ukraine was lost but its been worth it and was the only moral thing we could do. Our big sins are the last two times Putin pulled this shit we just shrugged. Like "Georgia is under attack!" We sat up, realized that there is some country in Europe called Georgia not that Red Dawn was becoming nonfiction and then no more fucks were given.

 

[ll74]

The issue being made here is maybe you don't intend to but you certainly sound like you don't give a damn about the Palestinians. This is not one group over the other, this is about an innocent being killed is a tragedy whether they are Israeli or Palestinian.

I fully accept the eggs omelets issue when dealing with an enemy that doesn't wear uniforms. If you're gonna do this you have to accept that you don't know who they are and if you're not gonna go surgical and do your best to only kill the leaders then God has to sort them out later.

No, I do give a damn about the Palestinians. I give a damn about all civilians trapped in wars, especially a group of people in such a small area. I also care about Israelis who deserve, just as much, to live in peace and safety.

History is wrought with all sorts of shit. When all is said and done in this current conflict (if it's ever done), I continue to favor a two state solution. Both Palestinians and Israelis deserve to reside in the area without fear of rockets landing in their backyards and with the ability to move freely in their state.

As for where we are now, I continue to believe Hamas surrendering is the only path forward. They are shit for everyone involved here and they continue to demonstrate that they would rather have the entire population of Palestinians killed than work to end this.

And I truly think Iran needs to be held accountable in some way.

 

[ll74]

I don’t answer things that are obvious in the text you either failed to read or failed to understand.

So no answer....got it.

Unless this whole thread is some cheeky way of saying "fuck em both" bothsideism and you prefer isolationism...and I think both positions in that are shit and dumb

 

[ll74]

The issue being made here is maybe you don't intend to but you certainly sound like you don't give a damn about the Palestinians. This is not one group over the other, this is about an innocent being killed is a tragedy whether they are Israeli or Palestinian.

I fully accept the eggs omelets issue when dealing with an enemy that doesn't wear uniforms. If you're gonna do this you have to accept that you don't know who they are and if you're not gonna go surgical and do your best to only kill the leaders then God has to sort them out later.

Adding to this because it bothers me that so many talk of history and then immediately tell me that Israel has no right to exist. (Maybe not you, but seems to be many)

If that's your position, then you want me to consider certain parts of history up until 1948 when the state of Israel was established. You can't just ignore parts of history...it all is there. Both leaders of both people need to want peace and keep working towards peace. That's what I want....and don't stop until there is peace.

For right now, that starts with the leaders of Hamas turning themselves in to end this. No conditions.