My Epiphany

[Couture]

So, this is the healthy master/slave relationship you were bragging about several months ago hmmmm?

I say now, as I said then. If you are willing to treat another human being as your slave full time, then you don't really love them to begin with. You may love the feeling it gives you, but you don't really love him/her. And any "slave" that feels his/her master/mistress loves them more than say, a piece of ass or a puppy is fooling themselves.

Because love, real love, is finding that person who is going to be there 30 years from now. Real love wants the best for their partner. Real love is about giving as well as taking. Real love is about making each other better people. And yes, real love fucks up sometimes too. But real love doesn't say, "That's just my nature, I like to fuck anything with a hole" or this whole sociopathical empathy schtick that you've made up. Know what else? Real love doesn't say, "I'm going to check out of this crappy world if so and so doesn't return my feelings" either.

Real love says, "I love you please forgive me" and real love says "I love myself enough that I'm not going to accept being in this hurtful relationship any longer."

I'm not going to glorify or blame either one of you. Because you know what...you are using her and she is using you. Hell, you probably deserve each other. But, you are both going to have to grow if you are going to make your relationship work.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

So, this is the healthy master/slave relationship you were bragging about several months ago hmmmm?

I say now, as I said then. If you are willing to treat another human being as your slave full time, then you don't really love them to begin with. You may love the feeling it gives you, but you don't really love him/her. And any "slave" that feels his/her master/mistress loves them more than say, a piece of ass or a puppy is fooling themselves.

Because love, real love, is finding that person who is going to be there 30 years from now. Real love wants the best for their partner. Real love is about giving as well as taking. Real love is about making each other better people. And yes, real love fucks up sometimes too. But real love doesn't say, "That's just my nature, I like to fuck anything with a hole" or this whole sociopathical empathy schtick that you've made up. Know what else? Real love doesn't say, "I'm going to check out of this crappy world if so and so doesn't return my feelings" either.

Real love says, "I love you please forgive me" and real love says "I love myself enough that I'm not going to accept being in this hurtful relationship any longer."

I'm not going to glorify or blame either one of you. Because you know what...you are using her and she is using you. Hell, you probably deserve each other. But, you are both going to have to grow if you are going to make your relationship work.

Oh, yes, I'm REALLY such an awful person for being involved in a certain lifestyle. Just when I thought that I was exaggerating in my own mind the extent of narrow-mindedness and bigotry of others, I read posts like yours here. This just confirms what I have thought, that people like you are bigots who have to point to any flaw that a person involved in a certain lifestyle might happen to reveal as "proof" of how terrible that lifestyle is.

If you knew anything about my lifestyle and my slave's, aside from assumption and conjecture, you would see that I don't treat her like chattel. The fact that you can't realize this exposes only your own prejudice. Do we have differences of opinion sometimes? YES. Does that mean that I try to silence her self-expression? Of course not. If this thread showed you NOTHING else, it should show you THAT at least.

Sociopathic empathy? Is that like life-saving murder? Or peaceful warmongers? What the FUCK are you talking about? That's a mother-fucking oxymoron, you imbecile! If I were a sociopath, I'd feel no empathy for anyone, nor love, for that matter.

I posted this to get input from friends here on the AH, and to open up to people that I care about and who care about me. You don't exactly fit either description, now, do you?

Just when I thought that I would make no enemies from this thread, that everyone who posted here was a friend with honest opinions that I may or may not happen to share, I get vulgar insults from someone like you. I don't know what made you hate me and my lifestyle so much, but I frankly don't care. Why should I care about your feelings, when you treat my girlfriend, myself, and a number of my friends here who are involved in such a lifestyle with such absolute disdain?

Remember what I said about empathy? I love those who love me and hate those who hate me? Guess which category you fit into! Little hint: it's not love.

Congratulations, you're only the 4th AHer to ever make onto my ignore list. Mentulam caco, fellator! Go fuck yourself!

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Just for the record, btw, it wasn't a whole month, and I DID intend to tell her again. The whole point of this thread was to gather up the courage to tell her. It was more like a week or two, 3 weeks tops, that I thought about that issue seriously. Just thought that I should set the record straight. The issue of whether that was right or wrong has already been discussed, but if we're speaking of honesty and truth here, we should get the facts straight.

 

[Etoile]

2. There is no indication in what I read that particular individuals are "hard wired" to be polyamorous, in the same way that genuinely homosexual people have no choice about which gender they are sexually attracted to. Polyamory appears to be a matter of choice. Some people may be more likely to choose polyamory because of their dispositions, but this does not mean they are incapable of finding satisfaction in the other choice, unlike truly gay people who really do not have a choice about which gender attracts them.

Therefore, if there is no cost to the choice, there is no reason not to choose this lifestyle. If there is a cost, that must be weighed as part of the decision.

I got a pointer to this thread because of a post I recently made in a thread about polyamory, in which I mentioned that I am in a long-term successful poly relationship. I am responding specifically to Roxanne's above comment, and not judging whether Sev is poly or just a player.

I agree completely that there is more an option to choose to be polyamorous than there is an option to choose to be gay. Some people simply have no attraction to the opposite sex - whether it's genetic or not, the feelings just aren't there. With polyamory, though, as Roxanne says, people make the decision on whether or not they want to proceed. Society prefers us to have monogamous relationships, but it doesn't require it. Each person makes an individual choice whether or not they want to follow society's recommendations, or buck the trend and have multiple relationships.

I guess I see it as a matter of whether you have somebody to love, or not. If you are gay, and you want to follow society's recommendations (eg, be straight), then you don't have anybody to love. If you are polyamorous by nature, but you feel you need to conform to society, then you still have the one person you are with. You may not be happy this way, but you are in a better situation than the gay person trying to be straight.

 

[Etoile]

So, this is the healthy master/slave relationship you were bragging about several months ago hmmmm?

I say now, as I said then. If you are willing to treat another human being as your slave full time, then you don't really love them to begin with. You may love the feeling it gives you, but you don't really love him/her. And any "slave" that feels his/her master/mistress loves them more than say, a piece of ass or a puppy is fooling themselves.

Because love, real love, is finding that person who is going to be there 30 years from now. Real love wants the best for their partner. Real love is about giving as well as taking. Real love is about making each other better people.

Clearly you have zero understanding of D/s relationships. If you don't know what you're talking about, and you talk about it anyway, all it sounds like is asscheeks flapping in the wind.

 

[Couture]

Etoile, I don't have to join nambla and participate in their lifestyle to know that what they are doing is wrong. But, if you'd like to address any of my points feel free.

 

[Etoile]

Etoile, I don't have to join nambla and participate in their lifestyle to know that what they are doing is wrong. But, if you'd like to address any of my points feel free.

So you feel BDSM is in the same category ("wrong") as pedophilia? How do you feel about homosexuality?

 

[Couture]

For the record, I did not say you were such an awful person. Hell, I happen to like a little BD and SM games myself. However, I did say and still feel that it is important to know where the games end and real life begins.

And I hate to say this, but not everything can be a lifestyle. Now even vampyrism is supposedly a lifestyle. Give me a braak. It's a bunch of silly people caught up in a fantasy.

In this country, slavery was outlawed a long time ago. So your master slave contract is worthless. It's actually worse than worthless and leaves most masters exposed to a whole host of legal issues, but that is another issue.

The point being that you being master and her being slave is just fantasy. And when a relationship is based on a fantasy, it leaves both parties ill-equipped to deal with the travails that all relationships must eventually overcome or be left undone.

Oh, yes, I'm REALLY such an awful person for being involved in a certain lifestyle. Just when I thought that I was exaggerating in my own mind the extent of narrow-mindedness and bigotry of others, I read posts like yours here. This just confirms what I have thought, that people like you are bigots who have to point to any flaw that a person involved in a certain lifestyle might happen to reveal as "proof" of how terrible that lifestyle is.

If you knew anything about my lifestyle and my slave's, aside from assumption and conjecture, you would see that I don't treat her like chattel. The fact that you can't realize this exposes only your own prejudice. Do we have differences of opinion sometimes? YES. Does that mean that I try to silence her self-expression? Of course not. If this thread showed you NOTHING else, it should show you THAT at least.

Sociopathic empathy? Is that like life-saving murder? Or peaceful warmongers? What the FUCK are you talking about? That's a mother-fucking oxymoron, you imbecile! If I were a sociopath, I'd feel no empathy for anyone, nor love, for that matter.

I posted this to get input from friends here on the AH, and to open up to people that I care about and who care about me. You don't exactly fit either description, now, do you?

Just when I thought that I would make no enemies from this thread, that everyone who posted here was a friend with honest opinions that I may or may not happen to share, I get vulgar insults from someone like you. I don't know what made you hate me and my lifestyle so much, but I frankly don't care. Why should I care about your feelings, when you treat my girlfriend, myself, and a number of my friends here who are involved in such a lifestyle with such absolute disdain?

Remember what I said about empathy? I love those who love me and hate those who hate me? Guess which category you fit into! Little hint: it's not love.

Congratulations, you're only the 4th AHer to ever make onto my ignore list. Mentulam caco, fellator! Go fuck yourself!

 

[Couture]

So you feel BDSM is in the same category ("wrong") as pedophilia? How do you feel about homosexuality?

Maybe your corset is too tight.....

 

[Etoile]

Maybe your corset is too tight.....

The reason I asked for your opinion of homosexuality is because I was trying to see how your beliefs are structured. If you believe homosexuality is also wrong, then I probably can't convince you that valid relationships can be founded on power exchange, because our views are too fundamentally different. If you believe homosexuality is fine, and you are willing to have an honest discussion instead of just teasing me, then I would be happy to discuss the issue with you.

 

[Couture]

The reason I asked for your opinion of homosexuality is because I was trying to see how your beliefs are structured. If you believe homosexuality is also wrong, then I probably can't convince you that valid relationships can be founded on power exchange, because our views are too fundamentally different. If you believe homosexuality is fine, and you are willing to have an honest discussion instead of just teasing me, then I would be happy to discuss the issue with you.

I see nothing wrong with homosexuality.

 

[Etoile]

I see nothing wrong with homosexuality.

I'm glad to hear it! Are you interested in discussing the validity of power exchange relationships? If not, I won't waste your time - just figured I'd check first before launching into it.

 

[Couture]

I'm glad to hear it! Are you interested in discussing the validity of power exchange relationships? QUOTE]

A power exchange relationship! But we hardly know each other.

I don't mind discussing, but I've already given it quite a bit of thought, and I do not believe that a relationship should be founded on power exchange.

 

[Etoile]

A power exchange relationship! But we hardly know each other.

I should probably at least offer to buy you dinner first!

I don't mind discussing, but I've already given it quite a bit of thought, and I do not believe that a relationship should be founded on power exchange.

Okay, that's cool. I don't need to get into it, I was just offering.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Over the past year I have seen a good deal of wisdom expressed by Etoile in another forum, and respect her tremendously. I have seen a few posts of Couture's, and he seems worthy of respect also (except for cracks about tight corsets). Specifically, he seems to be in touch with some "existential truths" regarding the human condition, notwithstanding the possibility that at least on the surface people can structure important relationships with an appearance of "asymmetry" or whatever you want to call it.

Couture: "The point being that you being master and her being slave is just fantasy. And when a relationship is based on a fantasy, it leaves both parties ill-equipped to deal with the travails that all relationships must eventually overcome or be left undone."

Gosh, Etoile, that has the ring of truth to me. I'm all for role-playing games if they add value in the form of "spice" to a person's or a couple's life, even games that are sustained over time. But at some times and some point don't you have to set the games aside and just be completely genuine, relating to each other as one equal human-to-another, without artifice or restraint? You can resume the games later, but when someone is truly hurting, surely that is not the time to keep playing games. Am I missing something here?

 

[MagicaPractica]

Severus,

Do you think this might be rooted in a need to please others? Fearing their disapproval if you don't conform to their emotions? You could also look at the fact that you can choose how to return another person's love. I think this epiphany merits further exploration to get to the root of why and how you are going to live with it. I know some people feel that discussing things with a psychologist is a sign of weakness but they can be, and have been for me, very useful in helping one explore the psyche.

Cheers

 

[Guest]

BDSM is not a game, it is not a lark it is not merely something someone does for kicks. It is and can be a very extreme and intense way of life. I have been involved with it for more then ten years... and yes to anyone that knows how old I am then you know I was involved with it before I was 18.

It is a lifestyle... some say a choice others say it is not. However, it is a choice that myself and many that I call friend make.

Can a TPE relationship exist... yes
Is it a game that someone mentioned on this thread... no its not and its not something you put on like a costume

I do not begrudge my friends that are vanilla their lifestyle nor do I look down upon them for their views.

What I do mind is those that have no knowledge what so ever of BDSM and what it entails looking down their noses or shouting from the rooftops about the horrible people that are involved in the lifestyle....

I believe that burning people at the stake went out in Salem.

 

[Etoile]

Over the past year I have seen a good deal of wisdom expressed by Etoile in another forum, and respect her tremendously. I have seen a few posts of Couture's, and he seems worthy of respect also (except for cracks about tight corsets). Specifically, he seems to be in touch with some "existential truths" regarding the human condition, notwithstanding the possibility that at least on the surface people can structure important relationships with an appearance of "asymmetry" or whatever you want to call it.

Couture: "The point being that you being master and her being slave is just fantasy. And when a relationship is based on a fantasy, it leaves both parties ill-equipped to deal with the travails that all relationships must eventually overcome or be left undone."

Gosh, Etoile, that has the ring of truth to me. I'm all for role-playing games if they add value in the form of "spice" to a person's or a couple's life, even games that are sustained over time. But at some times and some point don't you have to set the games aside and just be completely genuine, relating to each other as one equal human-to-another, without artifice or restraint? You can resume the games later, but when someone is truly hurting, surely that is not the time to keep playing games. Am I missing something here?

I appreciate the respect, Roxanne. Since you wanted to delve a little deeper into it, I'll mention why I feel D/s relationships are real: it's because the participants believe in them. Couture is right that there is no legal basis for slavery in the United States, but not everything has to be "legal" to be real. For example, same-sex relationships are also not (usually) recognized legally, but they are just as real as opposite-sex relationships. It's not a matter of a legal contract - it's that the participants believe in the D/s dynamic. What you and I think doesn't matter. If the submissive believes they are a slave, and the dominant believes they are a Master, then they are. They set their own rules for what that means in the context of their relationship. It can be said that many slaves include certain rules like "do whatever Master says," though certainly not all do.

I don't really see it as role-playing. It's living a role. When your primary relationship revolves around a D/s dynamic - and is a 24/7 relationship - then there is no game being played. Now, obviously I'm only speaking of 24/7 "TPE" relationships - "total power exchange." The overwhelming majority of BDSM relationships are bedroom-only, and they are the ones who play the game, who start and stop role-playing. But there are 24/7 TPE relationships, they do exist, and they are as real as any other relationship - again, because the partners believe in it and follow the parameters/rules they have decided on.

Now, as for the travails of life - you are correct that complete isolation and removal of responsibility is a dangerous thing. I know someone who is in this situation, and I do worry what she'll do if something happens to her Master. But I think a responsible dominant is careful to equip their submissive with the skills necessary to operate independently if necessary, such as in an emergency situation. Additionally, just because someone identifies as a slave doesn't mean they are a doormat - many slaves are quite headstrong, except when it comes to their Master, and then they are obedient!

Does that explain it a little better? I really don't see it as just a game...I hope I've explained myself well. (It took about 30 minutes to write, so hopefully it's clear!)

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

I appreciate the respect, Roxanne. Since you wanted to delve a little deeper into it, I'll mention why I feel D/s relationships are real: it's because the participants believe in them. Couture is right that there is no legal basis for slavery in the United States, but not everything has to be "legal" to be real. For example, same-sex relationships are also not (usually) recognized legally, but they are just as real as opposite-sex relationships. It's not a matter of a legal contract - it's that the participants believe in the D/s dynamic. What you and I think doesn't matter. If the submissive believes they are a slave, and the dominant believes they are a Master, then they are. They set their own rules for what that means in the context of their relationship. It can be said that many slaves include certain rules like "do whatever Master says," though certainly not all do.

I don't really see it as role-playing. It's living a role. When your primary relationship revolves around a D/s dynamic - and is a 24/7 relationship - then there is no game being played. Now, obviously I'm only speaking of 24/7 "TPE" relationships - "total power exchange." The overwhelming majority of BDSM relationships are bedroom-only, and they are the ones who play the game, who start and stop role-playing. But there are 24/7 TPE relationships, they do exist, and they are as real as any other relationship - again, because the partners believe in it and follow the parameters/rules they have decided on.

Now, as for the travails of life - you are correct that complete isolation and removal of responsibility is a dangerous thing. I know someone who is in this situation, and I do worry what she'll do if something happens to her Master. But I think a responsible dominant is careful to equip their submissive with the skills necessary to operate independently if necessary, such as in an emergency situation. Additionally, just because someone identifies as a slave doesn't mean they are a doormat - many slaves are quite headstrong, except when it comes to their Master, and then they are obedient!

Does that explain it a little better? I really don't see it as just a game...I hope I've explained myself well. (It took about 30 minutes to write, so hopefully it's clear!)

We happen to have a case study right in front of us. Here are two people who obviously care about each other a lot, but they have a genuine conflict. One party thought they had made a "compromise," and it turned out the other either had not agreed, or had not compromised but capitulated, with all the repressed, toxic and cumulative pain and guilt that will create over time.

Now I just can't see how this can possibly be resolved without setting aside these assumed roles at least for a few hours, and relating to each other as the sovereign individual each person really is. (Like it or not, that ultimately is an existential reality, even if you choose to "waive" awareness of it for long, long periods.) I understand the 24/7 and all the rest of what you say, but that that really mean 24/7/365, or might it mean 24/7/364.5. Because in this case, I can see where that .5 day difference could make a huge difference.

Again, am I missing something? Maybe we "vanillas" just can't understand (although I have a pretty good imagination, and am not constrained by any artificial legal or "moral" [as in "because God said"] limitations on my ability to understand.)

(You sweetie-pie - taking half an hour to compose a cogent explanation for a bunch of "vanilla beans." )

 

[Etoile]

We happen to have a case study right in front of us. Here are two people who obviously care about each other a lot, but they have a genuine conflict. One party thought they had made a "compromise," and it turned out the other either had not agreed, or had not compromised but capitulated, with all the repressed, toxic and cumulative pain and guilt that will create over time.

Now I just can't see how this can possibly be resolved without setting aside these assumed roles at least for a few hours, and relating to each other as the sovereign individual each person really is. (Like it or not, that ultimately is an existential reality, even if you choose to "waive" awareness of it for long, long periods.) I understand the 24/7 and all the rest of what you say, but that that really mean 24/7/365, or might it mean 24/7/364.5. Because in this case, I can see where that .5 day difference could make a huge difference.

Again, am I missing something? Maybe we "vanillas" just can't understand (although I have a pretty good imagination, and am not constrained by any artificial legal or "moral" [as in "because God said"] limitations on my ability to understand.)

(You sweetie-pie - taking half an hour to compose a cogent explanation for a bunch of "vanilla beans." )

I don't want to get too personal about Sev and amasterfound, because I don't really know their situation. What you are talking about is known as "negotiation" - it should always be done at the beginning of a relationship of this type, and it may occasionally need to be done again. In this specific case, I would say that there was not enough negotiation/disclosure the first time around. The difference for subsequent rounds is that the Master needs to open the floor to negotiations. Most sensible masters would allow the slave to request negotiation, and if they have half a brain cell they will allow it - but they are not obligated to, according to the previously-established rules for the Master/slave relationship. (What happens if they say no? Well, that's a completely different kettle of fish...but it's a sign that the relationship isn't healthy.)

So in the case of Sev and amasterfound, they don't seem to have negotiated well from the outset. In this situation, I would hope that they both see the need for further discussion. And yes, then they do step onto equal territory, while amasterfound expresses herself. What Sev does with the information, though, is up to him. Part of the responsibility of a master is listening to your slave's needs and keeping them happy and healthy, which means that you might decide to capitulate - but because you chose to, not because the slave has taken on newfound power.

Re-negotiating a relationship involves the submissive contributing their opinion, and the dominant doing what is (hopefully) the best choice for both of them based on what they've heard from the submissive.

 

[Couture]

How come it always seems like when these things fall apart the other BDSM people blame the master and slave, but never the lifestyle? For instance, these previously established rules of the relationship. Here's a sample from one of the more popular online BDSM lifestyle sites.

Master & slave "Slavery" Contract

Of my own free will and out of a desire to express my love and devotion to the man I love and adore, I offer myself in slavery to my Master for the period beginning on __________ and ending at noon on_____________.

Although I consider myself to be a slave full-time to Master, during the time period expressed above, I will devote myself completely and totally to the pleasure and desires of my Master, without hesitation or consideration of myself or others.

General Rules

The slave agrees to obey her Master in all respects. her mind, body, heart and time belong to Him. The slave accepts the responsibility of using her safeword when necessary, and trusts implicitly in her Master to respect the use of that safeword. If a condition arises in which the slave needs to use the safeword or gesture, her Master will assess the situation, and determine an appropriate course of action.

The slave shall keep her body available for the use of her Master at all times. In addition, the slave agrees that her Master possesses the right to determine whether others can use her body and what use they may put it to. The Master will discuss all such instances in advance with the slave, to be certain that such play with others will not violate any established limits. The slave shall demonstrate her acceptance of her role of service and availability at all times while at home and at other times and places specified by her Master. The slave acknowledges that her Master may use her body or mind in any manner He wishes within the parameters of safety. He may hurt her without reason to please Himself. The slave enjoys the right to cry, scream or beg, but accepts the fact that these heartfelt expressions will not affect her treatment. Further, she accepts that if her Master tires of her noise, he may gag her or take other actions to silence her.

The slave will answer any questions put to her honestly and directly, and will volunteer any information her Master should know about her physical or emotional condition. While her Master expects His slave to speak honestly and forth rightly about anything that bothers her, she is not to interpret that as permission to whine or complain. she will phrase her concerns politely and respectfully, and then gracefully accept her Master's judgment in these matters without further complaint.

The slave will always speak of her Master in terms of love and respect. She will address Him at all times as either "Master" or "Sir," ( see Public Rules of Conduct)

The Master may give the slave "free periods" in His presence during which the slave may express herself openly and freely. There will be no punishments applied during "free periods." It is understood, however, that the slave will continue to address her Master with respect and love at all times and that deviations from this rule are subject to punishment at a later time.

The slave agrees that severe punishment may be assessed for any infraction of the letter or spirit of their contract, and will accept the correction gratefully. The form and extent of the punishment shall be at the Master's pleasure, and the Master shall make it clear to the slave that she is being punished when punishment occurs. The Master shall endeavor not to inflict physical harm upon the slave that might require the attention of anyone outside the relationship. Master and slave agree that in extremes either may activate a free period by using the safeword. The free period will continue until both parties agree that the problem(s) concerned are resolved.

The slave is permitted to engage in any and all activities not actively forbidden by their contract or by later edict of the Master. All rights and privileges not otherwise noted in this contract belong to the Master, and He may exercise them as He chooses.

Private Rules of Conduct

On days when her Master is at work, the slave will greet Him wearing her collar, wrist restraints, and a shirt belonging to her Master. She will wear no underclothes in His presence unless given permission. On days when the Master is home, the slave will wear whatever is deemed appropriate by her Master. When in the same room as her Master, the slave will ask permission before leaving the room, explain where she is going, and why. At mealtimes, the slave will serve her Master, and sit at His feet while He eats. Food for the slave will be given by the Master at His discretion. When speaking to her Master or being spoken to by Him, the slave will assume a demeanor of alert attention and will meet her Master's eyes directly, unless instructed to do otherwise.

Public Rules of Conduct

The slave will conduct herself at all times in such a manner as to not call attention to Master and slave. she will call her Master by His name only if the use of "Master" is inappropriate. The slave will defer to her Master in public. The slave may dress herself, but must seek approval of any clothing she wishes to wear in public. Unless specifically stated otherwise, the slave may not wear panties.

Work Rules of Conduct

No part of their agreement is intended to interfere with the slave's career. The Master wishes the slave to work hard and honestly, in general to conduct herself in a manner calculated to bring honor and respect to them both. During periods of work, the slave is permitted to schedule appointments, to dress in a manner appropriate to work, and to leave the house when necessary. During periods of work, the slave may answer the telephone and discuss business without the expressed permission of her Master.

With my signature below, i agree to accept and obey all preceding rules as well as any rules my Master may choose to issue at a later date. I gratefully consign by body and soul to my Master for His pleasure and use for the contract period noted above.

_______________________________ slave___________ date

I accept My slave's desire to serve Me more fully, and take responsibility for her well-being, training and discipline to more perfectly serve My will.

_____________________________ Master _________________ date

 

[Etoile]

How come it always seems like when these things fall apart the other BDSM people blame the master and slave, but never the lifestyle? For instance, these previously established rules of the relationship. Here's a sample from one of the more popular online BDSM lifestyle sites.

First, I would say couples without written contracts far outnumber those who have them. In some cases they're useful, but not everyone needs them. As for that sample contract, it doesn't seem terrible or unreasonable to me; was there something about it that looked that way to you?

Why blame the people rather than the lifestyle? I guess because there are plenty of people for whom BDSM is successful. And is the failure of a relationship ever not the fault of the people involved?

 

[Couture]

Let's say someone signs a contract with another person saying they are willing to be killed. Is it morally acceptable for another person to carry out their wish? Now, I can think of some instances where this would be okay - say if the person was suffering with terminal cancer.

However, if they are not suffering and terminal - maybe they are just severely depressed... What then?

My problem with the above contract is that it violates most every right a human being is entitled to save one. Rights that have been hard fought in many cases. And you are right, what I think of as fantasy, can be very real if the participants believe it is real. But what happens in this relationship when there are children? What happens when one is abusive?? Or maybe the word is excessively abusive. Hell, I don't know.

What I do know is that I don't believe there is going to be a healthy outcome for one or more of the participants in this relationship. It goes against everything that it takes to make a real relationship work. Things like communication, love, mutual respect, personal and spiritual growth.

 

[Etoile]

My problem with the above contract is that it violates most every right a human being is entitled to save one. Rights that have been hard fought in many cases. And you are right, what I think of as fantasy, can be very real if the participants believe it is real. But what happens in this relationship when there are children? What happens when one is abusive?? Or maybe the word is excessively abusive. Hell, I don't know.

I do know of some BDSM relationships, including 24/7 TPE, that involve children; I'm not sure exactly how those work.

There is a case that I think you would be very interested in reading about: Delia Day. (read the URLs at the end of the wikipedia article, too - lots more info.)

Delia Day was a slave, and she and her Owner were together 10 years. Then she shot and killed him. She was acquitted, because the jury felt that she was trying to escape from abuse. What's interesting is that the two were apparently blissfully happy for 10 years. Delia lived a very public life, with a website (including pictures) and a LiveJournal and direct contact with many, many people online. Everyone agreed that they were a good match, it seemed they'd be together forever, etc. (I think he had children from a previous marriage too, not sure if they lived in the same house though.) Shortly before the shooting, Delia mentioned in her LiveJournal that he had bought a gun for her and was teaching her to shoot it, so she could defend herself if someone came into the home while he wasn't there. That was the gun she shot him with.

The details on this case are very hazy. Delia dropped out of the public eye immediately, and I think the trial results were only gleaned from newspaper reports - I don't think anybody online has talked to her since it happened. There are multiple message boards and locations on the web where people speculate about what might have gone wrong, about whether it was really self-defense, about whether he was abusive and she just wasn't saying it, etc. We may never know the true story - there was hope for a while that she wouldn't be able to resist being an e-celebrity, and would come back...but to my knowledge she hasn't.

Because the details aren't clear, I can't say for sure that this is a BDSM relationship that went terribly wrong. It certainly seems to be; it's unfortunate that it ended in death rather than divorce. But my belief is that just because it ended this way, doesn't mean they were doomed from the start. Something must have changed along the way. It's a great mystery, and I wish I could know what really happened.

 

[Couture]

I'm sure something changed along the way. They did.

People change. Otherwise we would all be in that new first six months puppy love stage and everyone would be blissfully happy for the rest of their lives.

This is not an isolated case. The above contract and a person living under such rules is going to breed resentment. Read amasterfound's reply in this thread. There is a good deal of resentment and much of it is not related to the cheating aspect.

Because the details aren't clear, I can't say for sure that this is a BDSM relationship that went terribly wrong. It certainly seems to be; it's unfortunate that it ended in death rather than divorce. But my belief is that just because it ended this way, doesn't mean they were doomed from the start. Something must have changed along the way. It's a great mystery, and I wish I could know what really happened.