My Epiphany

[Pure]

hi Sev,

if i may concur, in part, with what Roxanne said....

you used terms like 'inevitable" "impossible" [not to do], "no choice."

someone loves you, so you will love them.

i does sound a bit self serving.

also, is "love" actually the issue? i think Selena made this point.
you make certain understandings with one person, A. You then find you love Person B, also. Do you have to 'get it on' with Person B? Is it "inevitable'?


that said, if either the "I love everyone" or the "I fuck everyone" person is honest and upfront, from the start, with all they encounter, esp those whom they love and/or fuck, i have no complaints whatsoever.

 

[SummerMorning]

I also appreciate Annie's and SummerMorning's comments, supportive in their own ways (along with SummerMorning's self-deprecating humor). I am also sorry about your recent break-up, SummerMorning.

Don't be too sorry, offendi! Or efendi, if you're not a Pratchett fan. C'est la vie en rose et noir or whatever. It comes and it goes. I'd find myself utterly ridiculous, if I didn't have so much fun being me.

So there I was, determined to have some time to myself and all, whatnot with the breakup and all. You know the spiel ... "return to the self, rediscover my own needs and yaddaddada" ... and then I sort of ... well ... got to know another female friend of mine a lot better. Something I wasn't really expecting, to be quite honest.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

if i may concur, in part, with what Roxanne said....

you used terms like 'inevitable" "impossible" [not to do], "no choice."

someone loves you, so you will love them.

i does sound a bit self serving.

also, is "love" actually the issue? i think Selena made this point.
you make certain understandings with one person, A. You then find you love Person B, also. Do you have to 'get it on' with Person B? Is it "inevitable'?


that said, if either the "I love everyone" or the "I fuck everyone" person is honest and upfront, from the start, with all they encounter, esp those whom they love and/or fuck, i have no complaints whatsoever.

J, I understand if you get that impression. The facts are that, a) the issue isn't monogamy vs. open relationships or polygamy, b) the issue isn't sex. The issue is love. Or more to the point, what to do about love. Now, love is for someone who is trying to cheat, then that love needs to be disregarded, for example. c) I simply have chosen to compromise between the group marriage that I would prefer and the normal swinging arrangement in the past, by being a little more selective in my partners, while making it clear that Dora is my number one. I'm not giving her up. If the relationship ends anyway, for some reason, I'll make lemonade out of that lemon by going through with my ideal situation. My current approach is a sacrifice that I am making for love. It won't be easy, but I'll do it.

And I agree about honesty and candor. But one must first be honest with oneself, in order to be honest with others. That was what I required first, in order to admit the truth to her. Was she a bit upset? Yes. Did we resolve it? Yes. Are we going to make it as a couple? Probably, and I certainly hope so.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Don't be too sorry, offendi! Or efendi, if you're not a Pratchett fan. C'est la vie en rose et noir or whatever. It comes and it goes. I'd find myself utterly ridiculous, if I didn't have so much fun being me.

So there I was, determined to have some time to myself and all, whatnot with the breakup and all. You know the spiel ... "return to the self, rediscover my own needs and yaddaddada" ... and then I sort of ... well ... got to know another female friend of mine a lot better. Something I wasn't really expecting, to be quite honest.

Good for you, SummerMorning.

 

[amasterfound]

J, I understand if you get that impression. The facts are that, a) the issue isn't monogamy vs. open relationships or polygamy, b) the issue isn't sex. The issue is love. Or more to the point, what to do about love. Now, love is for someone who is trying to cheat, then that love needs to be disregarded, for example. c) I simply have chosen to compromise between the group marriage that I would prefer and the normal swinging arrangement in the past, by being a little more selective in my partners, while making it clear that Dora is my number one. I'm not giving her up. If the relationship ends anyway, for some reason, I'll make lemonade out of that lemon by going through with my ideal situation. My current approach is a sacrifice that I am making for love. It won't be easy, but I'll do it.

And I agree about honesty and candor. But one must first be honest with oneself, in order to be honest with others. That was what I required first, in order to admit the truth to her. Was she a bit upset? Yes. Did we resolve it? Yes. Are we going to make it as a couple? Probably, and I certainly hope so.

Was I a BIT upset? That is an understatement I am STILL pissed that you lied to me for weeks. You have known about this NEWEST EPIPHANY for some time, and instead of coming to me IMEDIATELY you go to EVERYBODY ELSE! HELL the WHOLE F*****G INTERNET knows about it before the one you "LOVE" did. As for having to love someone just because they love you in BULL S**T. Face it my love you are a EMPATH, JUST like me. Youy have to learn when you really love someone or are feeling their feelings. IF you love someone then imediately hate them because because they hate you you never loved them in the first place. No I will NEVER be ok with a POLY relationship. I can't do that. I barely can stand living with friends, but to liove with someone else that you sleep with every other night? While I cry my self to sleep, because you are sleeping with her instead of me being wrapped in YOUR arms? As for a s me haviung 2 husbands at the same time? F**K that! I can barely make ONE marrage work but 2 at the same time wont happen! I have been in several relations I already told you I REFUSE to LOVE any one other man but YOU. If it doesn't work with you face it I will CHECK out of this CRAPPY world where all I ever get is crapped one! If you can "LIMIT" yourself to just 2 wives then you sure as hell can limit it to ONE.

Lastly when where you going to tell me about THIS thread? You gave me the impression that is was just ONE person that knew? NOT THE WHOLE FUCKING WORLD! And in case you are wondering YES I AM F******G PISSED again.

 

[SummerMorning]

No offence, Sev, but:

"BUSTED"

 

[impressive]

No offence, Sev, but:

"BUSTED"

Oh, fuck! *choke* *water spew*

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Was I a BIT upset? That is an understatement I am STILL pissed that you lied to me for weeks. You have known about this NEWEST EPIPHANY for some time, and instead of coming to me IMEDIATELY you go to EVERYBODY ELSE! HELL the WHOLE F*****G INTERNET knows about it before the one you "LOVE" did. As for having to love someone just because they love you in BULL S**T. Face it my love you are a EMPATH, JUST like me. Youy have to learn when you really love someone or are feeling their feelings. IF you love someone then imediately hate them because because they hate you you never loved them in the first place. No I will NEVER be ok with a POLY relationship. I can't do that. I barely can stand living with friends, but to liove with someone else that you sleep with every other night? While I cry my self to sleep, because you are sleeping with her instead of me being wrapped in YOUR arms? As for a s me haviung 2 husbands at the same time? F**K that! I can barely make ONE marrage work but 2 at the same time wont happen! I have been in several relations I already told you I REFUSE to LOVE any one other man but YOU. If it doesn't work with you face it I will CHECK out of this CRAPPY world where all I ever get is crapped one! If you can "LIMIT" yourself to just 2 wives then you sure as hell can limit it to ONE.

Lastly when where you going to tell me about THIS thread? You gave me the impression that is was just ONE person that knew? NOT THE WHOLE FUCKING WORLD! And in case you are wondering YES I AM F******G PISSED again.

Ouch.

That's honesty.

 

[AthenasFury]

I realized that I am incapable of NOT returning people's feelings. Love from others MUST be requited by me. That's a whole different level of empathy, and it makes it impossible for me to avoid loving more than one person at the same time, sooner or later.

The odd thing is that I can still initiate love. Not all of my feelings are echoes of others. But intense emotions in other people will be reciprocated, whether convenient for me or not. I mean, hell, what happens if a man or woman in a supposedly exclusive relationship falls in love with me. I'll have no choice but to fall in love with him or her too, and then have to restrain or suppress that love to avoid acting on it. It also means that I can only divorce love from sex if my partners do. It even applies to feelings like jealousy, a feeling that I rarely experience on my own. If someone I love feels it, however, I start to feel it.

I do not understand the "no choice but to fall in love with him or her too". I feel as though there are many different labeled emotions all being twisted up as one and stuffed under the heading of love. Feeling empathy is not exclusive to feeling an automatic reciprocation of love from another. I am a very empathetic person by nature, but I recognize love as something much more discriminating. Also, I think one of the most special things about love is that it is inherently not automatic and exclusive to being loved and loving in return. Romance itself seems built on unrequited/unreturned love. On the extreme end, imagine being a celebrity and having love sent your way from every direction. Am I to understand that if this was the case, you would be helpless but to return each and every one of their love intimately and expect the understanding and blessing of all involved?

If you feel that you are polyamorous, please stand up and say that you feel the need to give love and receive love from more than one partner. I have deep polyamorous feelings and tendencies. Unfortunately, they would destroy the relationship I am in now, and that is unacceptable to me. If you truly feel that you do not have a choice in how many people you love at one time, please do not say that you are also compelled to discard the love you already share with one to indulge a love not yet found in others. It smacks of greed and utter disrespect for the one you claimed to love first and best.

 

[Guest]

Hmmmmm...
Interestingly enough... the statement that I made to another applies to D as well.

You love him. He loves you.
If he didn't love you then he would not have posted here or looked for advice. He never said a bad thing about you. He took the responsiblities of his feelings and in his eyes his 'failings' onto his shoulders completely all the while shouting loud and clear that he loved you so very much.....

Why then turn around and post something so obviously meant to cut and hurt him when he was doing his best to try work out what was within himself so that he could tell you.....?

*sighs some*

 

[amasterfound]

Hmmmmm...
Interestingly enough... the statement that I made to another applies to D as well.

You love him. He loves you.
If he didn't love you then he would not have posted here or looked for advice. He never said a bad thing about you. He took the responsiblities of his feelings and in his eyes his 'failings' onto his shoulders completely all the while shouting loud and clear that he loved you so very much.....

Why then turn around and post something so obviously meant to cut and hurt him when he was doing his best to try work out what was within himself so that he could tell you.....?

*sighs some*

I did NOT set out to hurt him, BUT to make it know how much I was hurt in this. I find out that I have been lied to for a month. WE had an OPEN and HONEST relationship. I told him the first time 2 years ago that he lied to me to NEVER lie or to keep something from me. I would have handled it better if he had came to me first. How can I trust if I am always afraid that he is going to keep something fromme? I can promise that if it had been me that did it. I would have a red ASS right now. He would have been pissed as hell. I understand he was trying to work something out, BUT that is why I am here. How can I hwlp him work it out if he goes and tells everyone else in a thread before he comes to me? You think I enjoy setting here and reading things that he is saysing to other's and asking him in an indirect way if there is anything I need to know or is hiding and he lies to me? I have known for 2 weeks that he has been lying to me. We had an agreement. I am his slave/submissive and know that if I had done what he did he would have harshly punished me.

I know he loves me I love him dearly. I want to work things out, but I can't if he wont talk to me. I feel like I am loosing him and that just plainly scares the HELL out of me.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

I find out that I have been lied to for a month.

Broken trust is so hard to deal with ... and repair...

You have every right to feel hurt, and it's clear that you are... very hurt...

I can feel your pain like weight in my own belly... and I'm sorry for it.

 

[amasterfound]

Broken trust is so hard to deal with ... and repair...

You have every right to feel hurt, and it's clear that you are... very hurt...

I can feel your pain like weight in my own belly... and I'm sorry for it.

Thank you that means a lot to me. I have been hurt very bad bad in the pst by men and when I give him my trust it didn't come lightly. It will take LOTS of time to regive him all my trust. My 1st husband of 9 years left me for a "FRIEND" of ours. Someone I trusted. I don't want to like having to wonder if he will leave me too for someone else that can give him what I can't!

 

[yui]

Thank you that means a lot to me. I have been hurt very bad bad in the pst by men and when I give him my trust it didn't come lightly. It will take LOTS of time to regive him all my trust. My 1st husband of 9 years left me for a "FRIEND" of ours. Someone I trusted. I don't want to like having to wonder if he will leave me too for someone else that can give him what I can't!

Ahh, way, *hugs* amasterfound. Why, when people have the ability to contribute to our belief, do they choose to contribute to our doubt? Somewhere, out there, I'm certain, it's okay to just be. At least that's my hope, eh?

I wish you much peace in you.

Yui

 

[FeistyLilKitten]

I did NOT set out to hurt him, BUT to make it know how much I was hurt in this. I find out that I have been lied to for a month. WE had an OPEN and HONEST relationship. I told him the first time 2 years ago that he lied to me to NEVER lie or to keep something from me. I would have handled it better if he had came to me first. How can I trust if I am always afraid that he is going to keep something fromme? I can promise that if it had been me that did it. I would have a red ASS right now. He would have been pissed as hell. I understand he was trying to work something out, BUT that is why I am here. How can I hwlp him work it out if he goes and tells everyone else in a thread before he comes to me? You think I enjoy setting here and reading things that he is saysing to other's and asking him in an indirect way if there is anything I need to know or is hiding and he lies to me? I have known for 2 weeks that he has been lying to me. We had an agreement. I am his slave/submissive and know that if I had done what he did he would have harshly punished me.

I know he loves me I love him dearly. I want to work things out, but I can't if he wont talk to me. I feel like I am loosing him and that just plainly scares the HELL out of me.

i completely understand how you feel. i have been there and that type of relationship is very painful some one usually ends up feeling left out or un-loved and i was most always that somebody Honesty is very important in ANY relationship but i think it is even MORE important in a M/s, D/s type relationship. i feel your hurt. i hope every thing will work out. {{{{{HUGS}}}}}

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Thank you that means a lot to me. I have been hurt very bad bad in the pst by men and when I give him my trust it didn't come lightly. It will take LOTS of time to regive him all my trust. My 1st husband of 9 years left me for a "FRIEND" of ours. Someone I trusted. I don't want to like having to wonder if he will leave me too for someone else that can give him what I can't!

It's so hard... I know... my heart aches for you.

I understand the D/s relationship, but I also want you to know something... your worth isn't based on who you're with. Ever. Or what they do or don't do.

I posted this today on another thread, but I wanted to pass it along to you, because I feel you could use to hear it:

"The world is a beautiful place, and you are beautiful in it."

I feel the places where it hurts... and there is love there, too...

 

[Guest]

Okay so let me understand this.....

you believe that because he was trying to sort ouf his feelings.... that by asking his friends and people that had trusted that were NOT intimately involved in the situation... that when he poured out his feelings here and tried to get a handle on it by asking people that are in the same lifestyle that he is.... when he asked people that were not his slave/submissive because he needed an opinion that was blunt and to the point without the possible "yes Master, anything you want Master" coming out instead of what he was asking for.....

you CONDEMN him and shout and rage and yell
instead of stopping for oh about five seconds you rant and scream and accuse him of whatever because you believe that YOU are the only injured party....you come here to his friends and rail and scream and play the please pity me because I have been with horrible men in the past card and you are now painting him with the same brush....

sorry toots but you won't get it from me. you aren't the only one who had SHITTY horrible fucking nightmares of a life until now, you arent the only one that has been left by a lover over someone else (known or unknown), you aren't the only one that was abused, you arent the only one that has had trials and tribulations, you are not the only one that has thought about killing themselves in the light of the day (see the thread called Dirty Little Secret if you think that ONLY you have had a horrible time)

You can either allow the horrors to eat you alive from the inside out or yo ucan suck it up and SURVIVE... pull yourself up from the boot straps and continue forward and on with your life

you really want to give up a good man, a man that loves you because he stumbled and was needing alittle help and guidance from his friends.... because you have decided things will be a certain way and no other way.... stop topping from the bottom, stop cutting him off at the knees and look at the REAL reason that you are throwing such a fit

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Oucccchhh... the pain in this thread is unbearable... from every direction...

there are no "sides" here... my heart just aches wide open for all of you...

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Oucccchhh... the pain in this thread is unbearable... from every direction...

It is all valid, too. No one can say that another's pain is not valid. My heart goes out to all those who are hurting.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

It is all valid, too. No one can say that another's pain is not valid. My heart goes out to all those who are hurting.

Yes.



You must read minds.

 

[Sex and Death]

Thank you that means a lot to me. I have been hurt very bad bad in the pst by men and when I give him my trust it didn't come lightly. It will take LOTS of time to regive him all my trust. My 1st husband of 9 years left me for a "FRIEND" of ours. Someone I trusted. I don't want to like having to wonder if he will leave me too for someone else that can give him what I can't!

Just in what I've read and felt from your posts here, the beautiful passion and pain and crying out for a man to be trustable...the surrender and vulnerability...god, there's such beauty in that...it wakes me up, your outpouring and offering of your heart here...it makes me want to do what's right by you, and to take your man to task for his absence of integrity and trustability.

You are so deeply worth it...to have a man who will give you his fullest and deepest love and attention, to see your beauty and hold in fidelity for you so you can grow to hold it an offer it to the world yourself, to claim you for his own and not share you with any other. You have settled for less in your life because you don't feel worth more.

Maybe this is the moment...maybe you will feel it is too painful to slip back into your shell and settle for what you've always settled for. Maybe you're ready to risk the pain of losing the false worth he conditionally offers you to find and feel your own worth.

Your trust and surrender and vulnerability has been a gift that has been squandered, as your beautiful anger and hurt is being squandered now. He may feel your wounded an hurt heart and it may inspire him to grow up and become trustable, but it may make him run. The open heart of a woman can be terrifying to men who aren't ready for it, so you have learned to hide your heart. By offering your pain an hurt you give him a gift...and here's the hard part...even though you may finally be reay to give him your true an open heart without holding back, he may not be able to accept the gift of your true feelings an open heart, but are you really willing to hide your heart again? Isn't the pain of hiding your true heart greater than the pain of risking rejection from him, or any man?

You shouldn't be forced to look outside of your relationship for what you're not getting from it. Your worth a man who puts a fence around your garden and stones around your fire.

I feel like you both really love eachother...yet you don't know how to say to each other that you really want to be an exclusive monagamous couple, and so you keep hurting eachother by stcking to some adolescent ideas about love and relationship that no longer serve either of you. Love and relationship both grow and develop, and it seems time for both of you to stop withholding your full hearts from eachother or to part ways.

Seems a shame that such love should become spoiled standing water in buckets under the bed.

S&D

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Since my girl has chosen to express her understandable feelings of pain and anger on this board, in public, I will tell my view of it.

To clarify, I DID make mention of this almost a month ago, but foolishly chose to do so in a lighthearted fashion, thinking that this would produce a more relaxed venue for a more open discussion.

I should have come out with it again, but felt rather disappointed and dismissed in her previous reply, which turned out to have been prompted by the fact that she thought that I was joking. I made matters worse by dismissing the topic in a way that reinforced her impression of it being that way.

I honestly worried about us breaking up over this, so I reacted by clamming up and trying to steel myself for a conversation that I feared might be the last in my relationship with her. I really worried that this was the end of the road for us. I am relieved that it isn't the case, since I would be extremely sad and hurt if it were. I came here for encouragement and reinforcement, especially over a more recent revelation about myself last weekend. Should I have done it quite this way? No. However, I did what I did with the best intentions, even though that doesn't justify my approach.

Should I have trusted her more with my true feelings sooner? Yes. Are we going to be able to work this out, by mutual compromise? I believe so. I really think so. I want this to work out. Both of us have had to compromise to get this relationship to work, as any couple does. Just because our relationship is a D/s one doesn't change that at all. That is one part or aspect of it.

I know that she is worried about losing me, far more even than I realized it before. She has nothing to fear about that, but I can understand that worry. I understand that she feels strongly about her opposition to a polygamous arrangement as well. That is something that I am willing to let go for the good of both of us. I am not feeling compelled, as someone else put it, to discard anyone. I don't discard people, especially the woman that I love.

I have not lied about something like this in 2 years, but it goes to show that one lie can have rather dramatic consequences. I accept the blame for that, even though I felt the way that I did. That was no excuse.

I appreciate that my friend is trying to defend me. She means well, but I do feel that I did wrong here. She feels differently about that, and I understand. But I can not absolve myself of blame or guilt for doing something dishonestly, as I did, in that matter. She is just being a friend and being protective. I feel that I should, however, admit my wrongdoing in this regard and not try to excuse it. I have so much that I feel on this matter, frankly, that I have a hard time putting it all into words. I agree with SK that there are no sides here. There is no my side or her side. We are on the same side. We all want this to work out. Lizzy wants things to work out too, but she views it from a different perspective. It is simply a matter of my coming to understand how much my actions hurt my girl.

I do not see any of you as enemies for this. You are all good friends, from SummerMorning to SK to Lizzy, who are calling like you see it. I appreciate that candor and honest expression of feeling. I was a bit angry at the way that my girl chose to express herself, even though I understand it. I would be lying if I didn't say that I am still a bit upset about that public tongue-lashing, though I can see better now why she felt compelled to speak out like she did. I am just wading through a great number of emotions here, feeling very nauseated at the kind of conflict that has emerged. I care about everyone here, albeit in different ways, and to see any kind of hurt feelings, particularly on the part of my slave, is very hard on me. That's part of being empathic too. I have my own on that, which differs from Dora's, but I understand why she feels and thinks of it how she does.

Thank you all for your honest opinions, and I hope that none of you resent me for what I have said here. I had to state how I feel about all of this being said about me and her.

 

[Guest]

I missed this.

hope you guys are all ok and able to resolve stuff and come back and tell us how this turned out

 

[Sex and Death]

I hope you two are ok, also.

Growth is always painful.

It's hard not to run from it. And once we manage to stand and face it, it's hard to begin doing so with courage and grace, and in a way that isn't selfish and serves those we love.

Takes courage for both of you to do what you're doing, and to bring it to a community you both are a part of. Hope you also have others in youir flesh and blood life you can trust and confide in.

S&D

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

I missed this.

hope you guys are all ok and able to resolve stuff and come back and tell us how this turned out

I really appreciate this. We are working it out. We have both compromised about as much as any couple, within reason, to save a relationship. Both of us knows that pushing the other further than this will make us balk, and neither of us will try to bully the other into capitulation with having our own way completely. In a relationship, both sides must make sacrifices. Both must also be able to see from the other's point of view.

It is difficult for me, also, to see this apparent rift between the two most important women in my life. Dora is my partner, my lover, my girl. That will not change. I refuse to speak or believe ill of her. Lizzy is my closest friend. I refuse to speak or believe ill of her. That will not change. That they can't see eye to eye, I understand. I am not happy about it, but I understand. They both believe things about each other that I can not bring myself to believe. So much has been made of being empathic, by so many here, including myself. That is true. It makes me feel the hurt coming from two people that I care very much about. The fact that I am the cause of this makes it worse for me. They wouldn't know about each other, let alone have feelings of ill will and suspicion about each other, were I not here. That is a burden of guilt that I must bear. I do not like animosity between two very wonderful human beings, let alone over me.

I appreciate the comments and candor, as I have said. Only a self-serving, narcissistic bastard would feel comfortable with the kind of anger that has emerged over a thread that I wrote for encouragement and support in a moment of crisis in my life. I am not such a person, so it does affect me. I will simply have to try to move past this thread and get this argument behind me, if at all I can. I think no less of anyone here for speaking their mind, and I sincerely hope that no one here thinks any less of me for doing so as well.

I love my girlfriend/slave. I also love everyone here, albeit in different ways. None of that will change. It is not in my nature to be fickle or transient with my feelings or my thoughts. I will simply have to let divergent views stay divergent.

As Obi-wan Kenobi would say, "many of the truths that we cling to depend greatly upon our point of view". I refuse to attack or libel or slander anyone for how they have chosen to express themselves. Everyone here has taken a stand on principle, including myself. I respect that. I just wish that the issue could have been something other than myself, something less personal and less emotional.

I have said my piece. I hope that this is enough to close this thread and end this subject, at least on this board.