My Epiphany

[SEVERUSMAX]

Surprised at myself again. Really. Just when I thought that I had learned everything about myself that there was to know (yeah, I know, silly of me to think at before even my 30th birthday), I realized that I am incapable of NOT returning people's feelings. Hate from others becomes hate for others. Love from others MUST be requited by me. Been thinking about that the past couple of days, since a good friend helped me realize it. She asked some pointed questions, and I thought it over and realized just how empathic my personality really was. That's a whole different level of empathy, and it makes it impossible for me to avoid loving more than one person at the same time, sooner or later.

The odd thing is that I can still initiate love. Not all of my feelings are echoes of others. But intense emotions in other people will be reciprocated, whether convenient for me or not. I mean, hell, what happens if a man or woman in a supposedly exclusive relationship falls in love with me. I'll have no choice but to fall in love with him or her too, and then have to restrain or suppress that love to avoid acting on it. It also means that I can only divorce love from sex if my partners do. It even applies to feelings like jealousy, a feeling that I rarely experience on my own. If someone I love feels it, however, I start to feel it.

Damn, I'm in a pickle! I'm not naturally monogamous anyway (which this just confirms), so that's not even going to work as an escape, even if I attempted to resort to it. Since a man or woman in another country, with whom I have never had the chance to have sex (and might not, given the geography and logistics) can cause me to fall in love with him or her, just by falling in love with me, it will be unavoidable.

I have already fallen in love with a lesbian at one point (God, that's a hopeless case). I have been in love with 2, and briefly one time, 3 women at once. I am starting to think that I am the poster child for polyamory. It's one thing to lust after lots of women (and men), which I do anyway. That's not a threat to my relationship. What is a problem is that I am now facing the fact that I will inevitably fall in love with another person or more than one other person, even while being in love with my fiancee. It is bound to happen eventually, no matter how hard I might try to avoid it.

One thing is sure. I would no more succeed at being a monogamist than I would at being a player. It's not in me to turn down or refuse to return someone else's love. It's perhaps an excess of empathy. I don't know. I won't mention whom asked the rather pointed questions, unless she is cool with my saying it. I am grateful that she did that, even though I now feel very torn and uncertain of what previously seemed a predictable future. I am also not used to having others provide me with advice or guidance. I tend to assume a guru role with people, so it's a change for me. However, it's a helpful and necessary change, and I am not so arrogant as to think that I can not learn from others.

I am headed for an inevitable confrontation, with no more ability to stop it than Phaethon could stop his father's chariot from colliding with the Sun. It's not a matter of if anymore. It's a matter of when. I just hope that the woman I love can accept the truth about me. If not, it will be time to start over, and I hate the idea of losing her. Even so, I can't hide my true self forever. I will be heartbroken if she breaks up with me, but I will survive it. I will even understand it. But she will have to do it. I won't dump her. She will have to bear the onus of ending a good relationship over my nature, if it does happen. I pray to the Gods that it doesn't.

In short, I am dreading the future and also hoping for a great one. I almost put this in the "mood" thread, but then I realized that it belongs in a thread of its own.

I apologize if I am rambling. I am still getting used to this situation and reality. I told her first, because I felt very comfortable doing so. Like she said, she doesn't judge me. I am coming out with this because I am hoping that you will behave like she did, that you will understand and accept me. I might need all of the support that I can get at this point.

I don't mean to be so self-absorbed. I am just coming to grips with this, and I felt a need to get it off my chest.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

I don't know, Sev - this sounds an awful lot like a rationalization for not wanting to keep your dick in your pants. That "incapable of not returning love for love" - what, are you an insect, your behavior determined not by choice and will, but by genes? With respect, I think you better think real hard about this conclusion, and raise your sights a bit regarding what constitutes a life worth living. This has an odor of immaturity about it. I don't mean to beat up on you - I sense that you are looking for honest feedback, even if that means some tough talk.

PS. "I'm not naturally monogamous anyway" - I don't believe that men really are, dear; you are not so unique after all. In our society they do it because reason and prudence and maturity inform them that it is the path to the good life, a meaningful life that is worth living. (I think that is true in almost all societies, but I don't want this to get sidetracked into a discussion about possible exceptions.)

 

[impressive]

Actually, Sev, I understand this. I believe that a polyamorous nature is no more a "choice" than one's "choice" of sexuality. We can bend ourselves into roles for a period of time, but it is a constant battle with one's self.

Good luck.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Actually, Sev, I understand this. I believe that a polyamorous nature is no more a "choice" than one's "choice" of sexuality. We can bend ourselves into roles for a period of time, but it is a constant battle with one's self.

Good luck.

Thank you. I appreciate that. I also understand that Roxanne feels that way. Let me clarify. First of all, I have never pretended to be monogamous or lied about that to my SO. She knew that from the outset. It's the other thing that I lied to myself about, hoping that I could compartmentalize love and sex enough to avoid emotional entanglements.

She probably feels it necessary for people to practice monogamy. I don't, myself. I understand her point of view, even if I don't share it. The issue is not sex here. The issue is love. I have already ruled out monogamy as a realistic solution for me, for the simple reason that I have long known that it wasn't in me. It wasn't my nature. As one who believes very strongly in the Ordo Natura, the Natural Order of things, I stopped feeling guilty about that or attempting to practice monogamy when I embraced my present religious views.

The question is one of love. One cannot choose love anymore than one can choose hate, jealousy, envy, greed, anger, or pride. I happen to consider emotions generally involuntary. Like Imp said, one's sexuality is about more than sexual preference (bi, gay, straight). It's about things like multiple partners or not. That sort of thing.

So, in short, I have will just have to respectfully disagree with Roxy. I like her and respect her, but I don't share her view on this.

 

[rgraham666]

I'm monogamous because I don't have a lot of choice.

The type of women I would fall in love with, and who would reciprocate that feeling, are very rare.

Also because I like things simple. A monogamous relationship is difficult enough to maintain. Each person I become involved with adds complications. Which I simply do not want.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

I'm monogamous because I don't have a lot of choice.

The type of women I would fall in love with, and who would reciprocate that feeling, are very rare.

Also because I like things simple. A monogamous relationship is difficult enough to maintain. Each person I become involved with adds complications. Which I simply do not want.

Which I understand. It also reinforces what Imp and I are saying. With all due respect to Roxy, I don't think that either sex has a fixed nature in the species Homo sapiens. I like her and respect her, but I would dispute that assertion.

In my particular case, this, if applied to my daily life, would mean sex with a lot fewer women than would be the case as a swinger (which has been my lifestyle hitherto). I would be limiting myself to a handful of regular partners, with whom I would have a serious, long-term commitment, instead of chasing everything in a skirt (or in pants, since I am bi). It would not be a "rationalization not to keep my dick in my pants", as Roxy put it. It would mean restricting myself to a few partners to whom I had a deep attachment. It would be done because I want to limit myself to those partners, not because I have to. In point of fact, I would also happier in the knowledge that I wouldn't have to resort to condoms or tests to avoid STDs and HIV.

This is the situation that would be best for me, in my opinion. The question is whether or not my SO could accept that as an alternative to swinging. Monogamy isn't even an issue.

Some people are happier being monogamous. That includes some men, such as Rob. I respect and accept that. It includes some women, such as Roxy. I respect and accept that.

Some people are happier as swingers. I respect and accept that.

Some people, however, are happier in a smaller, polyamorous circle of intimate lovers. That appears to include me. All I ask is that others respect and accept that.

 

[rgraham666]

Might be wise to ask her before you make a decision.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Might be wise to ask her before you make a decision.

Well, I can't force it on her. It doesn't have to happen right away. The question is whether or not she can accept the truth about me, without dumping me over it. I won't force a break-up. I will hope that she chooses to stay with me. However, I fear that she might not. I told her I wouldn't leave her. She'll have to dump me, if there is to be a break-up. I won't leave, unless she truly wants me to leave. If she asks me to take a hike, I will be on the first plane out of here. I hope that she doesn't do that to me. I hope that she can accept me as I truly am.

 

[3113]

I'm monogamous because I don't have a lot of choice.

The type of women I would fall in love with, and who would reciprocate that feeling, are very rare.

You liar! You've got half the women on this forum wrapped around your little finger, you Casanova you! And somehow you manage to satify us all

It's okay, though, we're content to share you. Don't forget, I get you Thursday night

 

[rgraham666]

You liar! You've got half the women on this forum wrapped around your little finger, you Casanova you! And somehow you manage to satify us all

It's okay, though, we're content to share you. Don't forget, I get you Thursday night

Thanks. Just the pick me up I needed.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Loving more than one person is one thing... but making a committment to more than one person at a time? What level of commitment are you talking about? All of you moving in together, sharing living expenses... what about children?

Do you already have someone in mind that you're in love with (not your fiancee) that you want to have a relationship with?

Are you talking about having sex with them all separately... or together?

It gets sooooooo complicated, Sev. Not saying it can't be done...

and I accept who you are. It is definitely possible to love more than one person at a time and to have the inclination to do so. The question is, whether or not it makes sense to follow that inclination.....

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Loving more than one person is one thing... but making a committment to more than one person at a time? What level of commitment are you talking about? All of you moving in together, sharing living expenses... what about children?

Do you already have someone in mind that you're in love with (not your fiancee) that you want to have a relationship with?

Are you talking about having sex with them all separately... or together?

It gets sooooooo complicated, Sev. Not saying it can't be done...

and I accept who you are. It is definitely possible to love more than one person at a time and to have the inclination to do so. The question is, whether or not it makes sense to follow that inclination.....

That's the thing. I understand such concerns, and respect them. I doubt that the ideal arrangement for myself could be carried out anytime soon. Yes, it would be difficult, but in the long-term, I would mean a polyamorous, polygamous arrangement of probably 2 men (includng myself) and 2 women living together.

I appreciate your questions. And, like Roxy said, I do want honest feedback. I can respect others' views, even if I don't agree with them. I am just facing my own nature and coming to grips with it. Doing something about it is another matter.

Oh, and Rob and 3113, that has to be the most welcome threadjack ever.

ETA: no, I am not currently in love with anyone other than my fiancee. At least, I'm probably not at this point, as far as I know.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

That's the thing. I understand such concerns, and respect them. I doubt that the ideal arrangement for myself could be carried out anytime soon. Yes, it would be difficult, but in the long-term, I would mean a polyamorous, polygamous arrangement of probably 2 men (includng myself) and 2 women living together.

I appreciate your questions. And, like Roxy said, I do want honest feedback. I can respect others' views, even if I don't agree with them. I am just facing my own nature and coming to grips with it. Doing something about it is another matter.

Oh, and Rob and 3113, that has to be the most welcome threadjack ever.

I know I *could* love more than one person at a time, but I choose to make a monogamous committment... others choose differently. Not a problem.

I think all of us are capable of loving more than one person at a time... don't you think? Or are you saying you are MORE inclined to do so than the average bear?

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

I know I *could* love more than one person at a time, but I choose to make a monogamous committment... others choose differently. Not a problem.

I think all of us are capable of loving more than one person at a time... don't you think? Or are you saying you are MORE inclined to do so than the average bear?

All of us are capable, yes. Some are more likely, I think. I classify myself in the latter camp. It has happened often enough to me, often at the least convenient times. It's a predisposition that makes it more frequent and very difficult to avoid.

But I understand what you're saying. A lot of people feel happier in a monogamous arrangement. I'm just not one of those people.

 

[Guest]

*smiles gently to Sev*

First, I must say that its rare that I say that I am proud of a friend or a close loved ones because I feel that it might be construed as patronizing however I am so proud of you right now and proud that I am your friend. Yes... friend. I am the friend that Sev spoke about in his posting. We talk a lot and are there for each other the way that friends are supposed to be.

I don't disagree with his choices nor his feelings.

I know that I am polyamourous... as does my SO and so is my SO. Many of my friends are this way and many of them are in poly-relationships. Much as Selena and Imp spoke of I to believe that it is possible to love and be emotional with more then one person. I also can completely see Rob's point of view as well (and I agree Rob you have ALL of the AH women thinking you are the bees knees).

What I cannot stand is someone opening their hearts and feelings to the AH, to a place that they call home just as many of us do and be shit all over.

Roxanne how dare you.
I expected better from you as I too have read your postings and seen your comments about orgies in the past and you seem just hunky dory with knowing the acknowledged and unacknowledged affairs of others that we love in this forum. However, you chose to be crass and state that Sev obviously wished to just have a free for all and put his dick anywhere I believe is how you explained it. I hope that you didn't consider Sev your friend because after a statement like that I would not call you friend again.

WE ALL LOVE MORE THEN ONE PERSON, WE ALL LOVE SO MANY PEOPLE....you want to know how I know that... because I READ THE AH EVERY SINGLE BLOODY DAY (except vacations). I read what is posted here, I read what my friends post, I read comments from people that I love, I read posts from people that I admire, and ya know what I read posts from the people that I wish would get RUN OVER BY A FREKKING TRUCK....but you know what I see each time that I read the AH.... I see love... love love love love love love love.... ALL over the place.

We don't make a post without loving someone either by telling them that we love them, we are proud of them (in other words) or that we are supporting them through the good and the bad.

Cloudy
Imp
Belegon
Myself
Ent
Mat/min
Vella/Lucky
Carson
Niv/Fem/baby
....... all of these people have had threads started over them... started over something bad or good.... and there are so many more. We have laughed, loved, cried, screamed and mourned (I miss you Colly so much) over people that post here.

Sev is no different, he came to us his family, friends and lovers and said... this is me this is how I feel and this is something that I have come to understand about myself..... and we his friends, family and lovers.... you know what were are supposed to and WERE supposed to do.... stand/sit/lay here and tell him... we love you friend, brother, son, lover... and we are going to support you no matter what you decision is no matter what you reveal about yourself.... BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT WE DO AS FRIENDS, FAMILY AND LOVERS.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

*smiles gently to Sev*

First, I must say that its rare that I say that I am proud of a friend or a close loved ones because I feel that it might be construed as patronizing however I am so proud of you right now and proud that I am your friend. Yes... friend. I am the friend that Sev spoke about in his posting. We talk a lot and are there for each other the way that friends are supposed to be.

I don't disagree with his choices nor his feelings.

I know that I am polyamourous... as does my SO and so is my SO. Many of my friends are this way and many of them are in poly-relationships. Much as Selena and Imp spoke of I to believe that it is possible to love and be emotional with more then one person. I also can completely see Rob's point of view as well (and I agree Rob you have ALL of the AH women thinking you are the bees knees).

What I cannot stand is someone opening their hearts and feelings to the AH, to a place that they call home just as many of us do and be shit all over.

Roxanne how dare you.
I expected better from you as I too have read your postings and seen your comments about orgies in the past and you seem just hunky dory with knowing the acknowledged and unacknowledged affairs of others that we love in this forum. However, you chose to be crass and state that Sev obviously wished to just have a free for all and put his dick anywhere I believe is how you explained it. I hope that you didn't consider Sev your friend because after a statement like that I would not call you friend again.

WE ALL LOVE MORE THEN ONE PERSON, WE ALL LOVE SO MANY PEOPLE....you want to know how I know that... because I READ THE AH EVERY SINGLE BLOODY DAY (except vacations). I read what is posted here, I read what my friends post, I read comments from people that I love, I read posts from people that I admire, and ya know what I read posts from the people that I wish would get RUN OVER BY A FREKKING TRUCK....but you know what I see each time that I read the AH.... I see love... love love love love love love love.... ALL over the place.

We don't make a post without loving someone either by telling them that we love them, we are proud of them (in other words) or that we are supporting them through the good and the bad.

Cloudy
Imp
Belegon
Myself
Ent
Mat/min
Vella/Lucky
Carson
Niv/Fem/baby
....... all of these people have had threads started over them... started over something bad or good.... and there are so many more. We have laughed, loved, cried, screamed and mourned (I miss you Colly so much) over people that post here.

Sev is no different, he came to us his family, friends and lovers and said... this is me this is how I feel and this is something that I have come to understand about myself..... and we his friends, family and lovers.... you know what were are supposed to and WERE supposed to do.... stand/sit/lay here and tell him... we love you friend, brother, son, lover... and we are going to support you no matter what you decision is no matter what you reveal about yourself.... BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT WE DO AS FRIENDS, FAMILY AND LOVERS.

Thank you so much for getting me and acknowledging your role in our discussion last weekend. Thank you for asking me rather pointed questions too, that unmasked some of my own self-deceit.

The truth is that, despite what others might think, there is nothing easy about being true to one's self and refusing to conform to social norms. It is often one of the most difficult choices that one can make. It is the choice that many gay and lesbian people made when accepting their true sexuality and true natures. It wasn't "easy" for them, either. Many no doubt accused them of "rationalizing" their behavior and of being "immoral", "unnatural", "selfish", and unwilling to live up to social obligations and moral virtue. Their answer since has been deafening. So will be mine.

The next community to fight for its rights will be the polyamorists, I predict. It's inevitable. Isolate and judge any group for its non-conformity, and you reap the backlash, suspicion, and resentment of that group for a long time to come. That will come from polyamorous people, not interested in being spat upon anymore. Just a prediction of things to come.

Thank you for all responses, anyway. I know whom to trust with my secrets, and whom not to trust.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Roxanne how dare you.
I expected better from you as I too have read your postings and seen your comments about orgies in the past and you seem just hunky dory with knowing the acknowledged and unacknowledged affairs of others that we love in this forum. However, you chose to be crass and state that Sev obviously wished to just have a free for all and put his dick anywhere I believe is how you explained it. I hope that you didn't consider Sev your friend because after a statement like that I would not call you friend again.

Oh Elizabeth, I think you do me wrong!

I admit I did use slightly harsh language, and perhaps that was not adviseable. But for he rest, I only tried to express my honest beliefs in a sincere manner. I think enough of Sev to give him the best I got without pulling punches, and that's it, whether he agrees or not. My post and my message for Sev is all about determining how best to live "the good life," because I sense that he is facing a really crucial decision: There is a very good chance he will lose that girl if he chooses this course, and he may be making the decision about what kind of life he will have not just for the next couple years, but for the rest of his life. I'm not saying which is the right way to go, just that there is an important choice with real consequences. Given that, how could I do any less than to give him my best shot, hard and straight? I almost specified that I understood he was not talking about just pure phyiscal "free for alls," but decided that he would probably understand that anyway, and maybe he would benefit from a bucket of cold water after hearing such a different message from another friend. Perhaps that was manipulative, and I agree one should not be manipulative.

I know that Sev understands this that and does not bear any grudge. Honestly, I think you misread me, and I apologize for giving you or anyone else cause to do so.

I'm not sure what comments aboout "orgies" you've ever seen from me here, other than possibly the usual banter and innuendo - are you sure you don't have me confused with someone else? Just to be clear, I have no moral objection to such activities per se – that was not the point of my post at all.


Edited to add this:
I researched this issue of polyamory a tiny bit (looking at the studies cited on Wiki) and discovered two things:

1. It is a perfectly valid alternative lifestyle. The outcomes in terms of happiness and the likelihood of success for the "core" relationships are no better and no worse that traditional monogamy.

2. There is no indication in what I read that particular individuals are "hard wired" to be polyamorous, in the same way that genuinely homosexual people have no choice about which gender they are sexually attracted to. Polyamory appears to be a matter of choice. Some people may be more likely to choose polyamory because of their dispositions, but this does not mean they are incapable of finding satisfaction in the other choice, unlike truly gay people who really do not have a choice about which gender attracts them.

Therefore, if there is no cost to the choice, there is no reason not to choose this lifestyle. If there is a cost, that must be weighed as part of the decision.

My responses to Sev assumed that for him there is a cost. He will lose something that he has indicated here and elsewhere is very valuable to him – a very special girl. I have gotten the impression that she is the one for him, and the decision to keep or lose her may have lifelong implications for him. It is therefore a decision that should be made with the best information possible, even if that means subjecting himself to some tough talk from friends. Further, this is not a time for a friend to hold back, or substitute his or her genuine thoughts with soothing therapeutic ones.

So I don't apologize for my tough talk, although perhaps I should have been more precise and less coarse in the opening of my original post. I will think no less of Sev whatever choice he makes. He's a good person with a good heart.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

I don't think any of us would discount someone else as a "friend" simply because we disagreed?

Roxanne gave him her honest feedback... it was couched in some harsh language... but tough love is not necessarily a bad thing.

I think Sev understood where she was coming from... he even said, he liked and respected her, but just didn't agree...

we can't agree to disagree?

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

It's not that I don't think of Roxanne as a friend. It's more that I am disappointed, a bit, with her reaction. To be accused of "rationalizing" and other stuff is a bit hurtful, I admit. It's the reaction that I would expect from my fundamentalist parents, not one of my AH friends. Especially to have someone who, in her own words, doesn't actually consider orgies and affairs immoral, accuse me of just being a Don Juan type out to "rationalize" his conduct for choosing something other than monogamy and admitting his true nature. Once again, let me make it clear. Monogamy was NEVER an issue. It's a issue of swinging vs. poly. Yes, there is a risk of losing the woman that I love. It's why I am not jumping into the pool without trepidation. I don't want to lose her. I also don't want to lose my self-respect by conforming to social mores and conventions, or by attempting to live a lifestyle that is wrong for me. It would be like a gay man trying to be straight and married to a woman. It would be false to his nature, and he and everyone else would suffer more in the long run.

 

[Anniejustagirl]

Hey Sev!

i firmly believe that some are hard wired to be poly...the key in my opinion.... the Honesty! put it out there and talk it through... and you do that!

So.... you have my support in your honesty.... You are a great guy, Sev! Just keep looking into your soul and being an honest human! I'm proud to know you!

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Hey Sev!

i firmly believe that some are hard wired to be poly...the key in my opinion.... the Honesty! put it out there and talk it through... and you do that!

So.... you have my support in your honesty.... You are a great guy, Sev! Just keep looking into your soul and being an honest human! I'm proud to know you!

Thank you, Annie. That means a lot to me. Very much. I need all of the friends I can have at this point in my life.

 

[Anniejustagirl]

Thank you, Annie. That means a lot to me. Very much. I need all of the friends I can have at this point in my life.

I also understand the ability...the Need to love more than one person at a time.. in my opinion... it seems more natural in my life.... in life in general... i think "man and religion" put the screws to it rather than it being a natural progression of life....

i hope that things turn out well for you, Sev, but no matter what... i too, know that you will survive.... and handsomely!

 

[Nirvanadragones]

At the risk of being wacked hard... here goes my opinion anyway... (just don't wack too hard, a gentle spanking will do)

I could say the same as you, Sev. I have recently had an epiphany too - although mine refers to the opposite of yours. Recently (in the past 3 months) I have seperated from a 10 year marriage. Some might call what we had an "open"marriage" - I don't, because it was everything but "open". I was (and still am) very selective over whom I allow into my life on all levels.

I am not going into all the details of my past relationship. Just to mention that it was (and still is - the parts we choose to keep - as we share a child and friendship) a good, strong and healthy relationship. Very early in my relationship with my ex, did we talk about poliamory, and made decisions that worked for us for over 10 years. The biggest consideration was my sexual orientation, at the time believing I was bi because I was in love with him. We worked with one major rule - our family comes first. ( no pun intended) Whenever I was in a situation where the other party needed more than I could give, I would pull back - and rethink the situation. What are my needs, and what are the needs of my family. What are her needs - do they overlap? Can we meet each other halfway?

Bottom line - we had a very unique relationship, and it worked for us. Eventually I needed the seperation for two reasons - firstly because throughout the 10 year journey, I realised that I wasn't bi and to stay in a marriage with a man, when I'm gay was not what I wanted. Not for me, not for him, and not for our child.

Secondly, I met the woman of my dreams, we fell in love, and we started planning our life together. And for the first time in my existance, I felt that I wanted to commit to someone monogamously. The feelings are so strong, that I felt confused at times, wondering how/ why we felt so strongly about only being with each other on all levels. I realised that monogamy is part of the nature of our love, and we wouldn't want it any other way. We have enough discovery and getting to know each other still to do - I think it will take a life time of togetherness for us to get to that level of needing others on a romantic level. I'm not saying it won't happen. I believe we're open enough to explore that when/ if it happens.

Do we need other people in our lives to satisfy our needs? Ofcourse!! Goodness, I have very intimate relationships, and I wouldn't want to change that, nor does she expect me to. It's about how you classify needs and relationships. And it's about honesty.

The only advice I can offer you is - like the others said - openness and honesty. Without that, you're bound to "not be true to yourself" and she and you and anyone else involved are bound to get hurt.

Give yourself time too - Is it not a little premature to make decisions now that will affect your relationships in the future? Sure - talk to her - and be honest - check her feelings and reactions. But does it have to be an "either" "or" situation? Either she accepts who I am "right now" or this wont work out... ? I'm not saying that is where you're heading. Just keep in mind this kind of thing takes time.

ETA: I wish you well on your journey. Self discovery and contemplating our choices in life is beautiful, when we choose to see it that way. Celebrate it - even amidst the confusion

 

[SummerMorning]

Sev, my advice doesn't count for much. All of my relationships thus far have failed. The last one infamously about three weeks ago.

What I do advise is that you keep in mind that it's only you who's responsible for making your own life complicated and that it's going to whack you 'round the head at some point. Trust me, this is me talkin' with me own achin' 'ead!

But aside from that, it really is your ... well ... choice (to the extent that choice is possible, as I don't believe in a coherent, really-existing self or ego). So, go on, muck about and enjoy the pain.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Perhaps I spoke too harshly to Roxanne myself. She honestly believes that I can choose my nature or something. That's fine, though I differ. She has always been a friend, and I have no reason to consider her anything else, aside from comments that seemed very hurtful and accusatory. If she insists that she is not actually preaching a particular morality or a double standard, I'll have to assume that is the case.

However, I appreciate Lizzy standing up for me. I can fully understand and am grateful that she backed me and discussed what we did. She is very loyal to her friends, I can tell, and that means a lot to me. I'll never forget the way that she took up for me.

Vana, I fully appreciate your comments and your relating of personal experiences. Sometimes, epiphanies go in different directions. And you're right that nothing has to happen so soon. In point of fact, I don't see any change actually happening, since there is something of an impasse here. You're also right that honesty and openness matter a great deal in any relationship.

I told her my actual feelings, and she was a bit upset and hurt. The status quo is likely to remain, as a compromise between her feelings and desires and mine. There is no way to avoid it. I'm likely to lean more toward a smaller, intimate circle of partners (the status quo is swinging, not monogamy), while she is likely to be into more casual pursuits. So, something is gained from my self-discovery, in addition to simple knowledge of myself. It will just not be what I prefer: a long-term group marriage. I simply can't give her up, as that would be far harder on both of us than even I considered when I thought of the possibility. So, we are siimply going to have to compromise and reconcile our different approaches to sex and love.

I also appreciate Annie's and SummerMorning's comments, supportive in their own ways (along with SummerMorning's self-deprecating humor). I am also sorry about your recent break-up, SummerMorning.

My feelings and views stay the same, but I am in a relationship with someone who feels differently, and we each have to give ground. Despite being her Master, I can't order her to accept my preferred lifestyle. It's a compromise, not perfect, but as long as my relationship lasts, I can not act on my wish without doing serious damage to it.

So, you see, the saying is true in other ways. "The more things change, the more they stay the same."

I appreciate all of your comments and candor. I especially thank Lizzy for standing up for me and with me. It's nice to know that someone else feels as I do. That always helps. She is a very close friend, and I value her very much. Thank you, Lizzy.

I hope that no friendships have been damaged by this discussion. I just thought that I should add this update. You are all very treasured friends, especially Lizzy.