Mother's? The only "real" women?

[Sparky Kronkite]

Okay. Deborah clued me in on this - she mentioned Dion Sander's saying that he knew what the pain of childbirth - labor was like. Yeah right, any "man" who says anything like this is just plain stupid.

This reminded me of a topic of conversation that I've been meaning to throw out here. I'll attempt to "not" take a stand on this and just throw it out for your comments......

Childbirth? For any woman...... would she be a "full" woman, a complete woman, an enriched, a whole woman....... if........ she had not experienced...........natural childbirth?

Is a female, a woman, by degree - not as womanly, not as "complete" a woman - incrementally so, as her life might relate to less child birthing/caring experience. Less "kid stuff" - less of a woman?

In other words - a woman with adopted children - is she not "as experienced" in the ways of womanhood - as a mother who has given birth? Felt the pain? Breast fed? Etc..

Is a young, professional woman - who has thus far in her life - chosen to not have children - any less womanly - than a mother?

Is "being a mother," necessary in obtaining the full - human, female experience - on this here planet?

 

[Ezzie]

I think that no matter what path a woman takes in life... whether it be to mother children of her own, adopt or not have children at all, is still a mother in every aspect of the word. Most women are born with a natural mothering instinct in them. It's up to them how they act on it.

My ex mother in law adopted because she couldn't have children of her own. I to this day believe she's more of a women than I will ever be. Some people I know have chosen careers over children and in a little way, their career is their child. They do things to protect it, watch it grow and make something of it.

I also feel strongly about women who chose to put their child up for adoption. Due to circumstances, they either couldn't raise a child or in some cases, were forced to give their children up. I think that no matter why they did it, they are still mothers.

And finally, I believe that some women shouldn't be or become mothers period. But I won't get into that now.

If a women loves and does what she needs to do with her life to make it complete, then she is in every aspect of the word, a mother nonetheless. Even if she's mothering a child, pet, plant, or career...

 

[Sparky Kronkite]

I don't know Ezz....

I'll bet you get some differing opins on that one. That would mean that all females - all of 'em - are not just potential mother's - "they are" mother's.

Lesbian's, little girls, - even women who can't physically have a child - are mother's.

How can a very, let's say "man-like/masculine" lesbian who has never even entertained any thoughts of childbirth - other than in a man-like way - have any clue as to what "a real mother" has experienced.

Are they not miles apart? About as much as a man and a woman. Is that masculine lestian not all that different from Neon Deon?

 

[Cheyenne]

Is "being a mother," necessary in obtaining the full - human, female experience - on this here planet?

I've seen an argument that ran for pages and pages on a different bb on this very topic. Extreme opposite sides were a) God put you on this planet to have children and if you don't, you aren't doing what you were meant to do and you can not possibly be a complete woman. You are going against God's will by being a professional woman and taking the spot of a man in the working world. b) Dropping babies into this world proves only that I can have sex and breed. It doesn't make me a better or more complete woman. I get my satisfaction in life by contributing to society through using my brains and having a good job that I enjoy. Having babies wouldn't add to my life at all.

And then there was the whole permutation of women who work AND have babies vs. stay at home moms- arguments about who stays home with the kids, has a nanny, or uses day care? Which women are "better"- the stay at home moms or the working moms? You don't even want to go there- it got vicious.

For the record, I am not a mom and I don't feel like I am less of a woman because of it. There are many things in life that I won't experience, none of us can do everything. For me, having a baby is one of the things I won't have done.

 

[Guest]

Mothering isn't just having babies...

 

[Ezzie]

As much as I'd love to think that my opinion is the only one that matters, I'm not saying it's the right one. LOL

I've known my share of lesbians and gay and straight men for that matter who have better mothering skills than I do and I am a mother, gave birth to a daughter who in my eyes is a mother right now at the age of 4. When I'm sick, she mothers and takes care of me as best she can.


I think, and again this is only MY view of things, that when you dispense advice, or care for someone when they are ill or are just a shoulder to lean on in times of need, that you are mothering or fathering that person. And it doesn't matter if you've gone through hours of labor, colic, dirty diapers, or whatever else that raising a baby throws at you. Granted that men and some women will never know the true "Experience" (Look at the above mentioning of colic, labor pains and things like that)of pregnancy but being a parent lies in the heart and caring for whatever it is in your life that you thinks needs care is a form of parenting.

I feel strongly for any person who has what it takes to nurture things in life. That to me, makes them a mother or father.

 

[Sparky Kronkite]

I would have a child if I could....

We're working on a "stay at home dad," plan. Hopefully in the next couple of years it'll work out. And if it were at all possible I'd have given birth to all three of my sons. Just becasue both my mates were so hesitant - not just about the birthing process but the whole deal - weight gain, stretch marks, breast feeding, work, life change - the whole damn thing. It's amazing they ever "relented" and had children. I would have had 10 to 15 by now - I love kids and I have a tough mental composition that I believe (cause I really don't know, can't know) would ease my way through childbirth and all that goes with it.

But this is just an idle wish that just can't come true. But believe me I'd do it - if I could.

 

[KillerMuffin]

Is "being a mother," necessary in obtaining the full - human, female experience - on this here planet?

Nope.


The full - human, female experience comes from within the female. The only thing making a female female is the id within her. She can experience a full, complete, wonderful life without every being within a mile of a child. Children do not complete a woman. They are nice to have, and a joy to be with, but they are not the completing factor in womanliness, just in motherliness.

I was told I did not have the full complete motherhood experience because I did not breastfeed. Sure we missed that special mouth to breast bonding moment, but we still bonded, there was just a bottle instead of a breast.

But to say you missed the full female experience by not giving birth naturally? That is misleading and very self righteous. I think its brought about by a jealousy of women who are complete and fullfilled in their own lives, by their own lives, without having children.

People who make the mistake of thinking that children are intrinsic to being a complete female are doing themselves, their children, and other women a great disservice.

Woman comes from within, not from anything outside of us.

 

[Ezzie]

KillerMuffin, I was told the same thing because I didn't give birth vaginally. I was told that I'll never know what it's like to feel complete in that way. But I will say this, when it came down to the doctor saying "Either we do a c-section now or you and the baby will die" I did what I had to do and that to me, that makes me one hell of a mother.

Don't let people tell you because you didn't breast feed or didn't go through vaginal birth that you're less of a women, it's a cheap bullshit theory that people use to make themselves look better.

A mother is woman and a woman is a mother... no matter what she's mothering. And this folks, is the way things are in my own little world.

 

[Always]

i'm not having little kiddies of my own. i'll adopt children; i do want to try and raise them, but there are already enough people in the world, I might as well take someone and make their life better.

that is, after i'm about 40 years old. live my own life to the fullest!

 

[Sparky Kronkite]

So......

At 40 you peak huh? 40's life to the fullest? Hmmmm.

 

[Always]

i figure at 40 you've seen the world for yourself and are responsible enough to actually raise children, financially secure enough to raise children, and smart enough to teach them right and wrong.

 

[CreamyLady]

Peak at 40? Heck. I'm still climbing!!

It doesn't just take childbirth, or even childrearing, to be a complete woman. To list all the gifts and quirks that go with being a woman would take more space than Literotica has, so I won't.

As for "natural childbirth," I ended up drugged out at the end because of a last minute complication. Given the variations on the process, it is silly to use that as the defining criteria.

 

[Never]

Spunky: "Is that masculine lesbian not all that different from Neon Deon?"
Hun, don't say things like that so early in the afternoon, I laughed so hard I choked on my Raisin Bran.
Yes, butches are exactly like Neon Deon.

Who is Neon Deon again?
Never mind, pardon me while I forward that post to the editor of 'Knuckles.'

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I swear I hear that one song from Mulan playing in the background now.

 

[Angelique]

Couldn't pass this one up...

My opinion, for what it's worth, is that a woman is a woman because she was born female. End of discussion (sorta).

To elaborate, I will say that comparing what a woman does with her life in no way, shape or form, makes her any more or less of a woman...rather, a different "shade" of a woman, so to speak.

For example, there are variations to the color green, but when it comes down to it, they're all green, correct? And no one shade of green is really any better than the other...rather the shade suits the picture that's being painted...a comparison to life, actually.

Therefore, a woman who chooses not to mother children is simply a different shade of woman than a woman who has chosen to, regardless of HOW the child came about (i.e. test tube baby, adoption, vaginal birth or c-section). Each woman chooses her shade according to her own life, none being any better than the other.

Same goes for men...just because a man is capable of fathering a child (be it sperm donor or active participant in the child's life), does that make him more of a man than any other guy on the planet? Nope...not in my book.

Unfortunately, not everyone feels this way...and it's my opinion that the "competition" in the world (i.e. "Who's more of a woman/man, mother/father than the other"..."who's better than the other" type of attitude) is what has created an abundance of problems in todays society. Trying to "keep up with the Jones' " and prove to society that one is better than the other has created an environment where children aren't given the loving, supporting, nurturing environment that they need in order to thrive and evolve. Oh I realize that there are those out there who DO this, my point is that there are a great number of people who fail to see this as a problem...and until we go back to basics, it's my opinion that there will be a decline in the number of children who grow up to be proper adults. And unless something is done to change the flow of things, we can kiss a harmonious society goodbye.

Please note that I in no way am coming down on the single mom/dad who must work to keep food on the table...hell, I'm one of those, myself. I'm referring to the great number of people who aren't satisfied with having "enough"...the ones who feel the need to "one-up" everyone else.

Ok, now that I've completely gone off topic, I'll go back to my little corner and meditate. Discuss amongst yourselves, flame away, or allow my post to kill this thread...just voicing my opinion as I wander through here.

btw, great topic Sparky!

 

[Siren]

Angelique !!!!

 

[Rosebud]

Angelique...my precious angel...http://store.angelhaven.com/cart/thumbnails/bstone.jpg...I love and miss you woman.

Now for the answer to the question.
A woman is a woman. Just because one has kids does not make them even more woman...Look at some of the women who give birth then leave their kids at home unattended or heaven forbid...drown them in a lake or just kill them. Are they still more woman just because they gave birth...HELL NO...Like I said a woman is a woman...no difference just because someone has kids.

 

[Cheyenne]

And now I know why I spend so much time at Lit and haven't been back to that other site that had the huge argument on this topic in months. I loved Angelique's answer the best- wonderful example with the color green. I'm going to remember that one the next time I run into this question in RL. And I'm sure there will be a next time, there always is.

 

[forgetunome]

Woman?

Originally posted by Angelique
To elaborate, I will say that comparing what a woman does with her life in no way, shape or form, makes her any more or less of a woman...rather, a different "shade" of a woman, so to speak.
For example, there are variations to the color green, but when it comes down to it, they're all green, correct? And no one shade of green is really any better than the other..rather the shade suits the picture that's being painted...a comparison to life, actually.

I agree with Angelique. I think she put it quite nicely!
My husband and I have been married 13 years and we both made a conscience decision to not have children two years into our marriage. We had discussed it before marriage many times but, we gave ourselves two years into marriage to see if we felt differently. I have 51 nieces and nephews, the great nieces and nephews are still popping all over the place. LOL! So it's not like I don't know what it takes to raise a child....I have seen all of the stages and if they could stay at 18 mos and under I'd have one in a split second. Neither one of us to this day regret our decision we are a very good Uncle & Aunt I love my nieces and nephews and often take the ones I live around out and do things with them and they adore me. But, I feel children deserve to be wanted 100% and should be planned for, and loved with all of your heart. I have seen too many of my friends have children for the grandparents, or because their friends are having them, etc. for the wrong reasons. Not that you don't love your children, if we had had an accident I would not have regretted it or hated it! You learn to go with the flow and I would have loved the baby but, seeing as to how I didn't I don't regret our decision and if my husband had wanted children then I would have but, since we both were in agreement then hey...it worked out. That's where communication before marriage is a good thing! LOL! Anyway to make a long post short....I don't feel that not having children has made me any less a woman no more than having children would make you more of a woman. Which is why I think Angelique's post of different shades is a good expanation. There I can breathe now I didn't realize I was holding my breath throughout this post.

 

[Earthmuffin]

I wanted to be a mother, but not to feel more "womanly". I was a woman long before. Hence the 5 pregnancies it took to finally be able to have my beautiful munchykins (twins) was worth the life saving c-section. That having been said, I must quote something someone once said (wish I could remember who to give credit to)....

"Men understanding childbirth? Unless they're opening an umbrella up their ass, I don't think so!!"

 

[Earthgoddess]

Oh goddess

As a woman who has chosen to be a mother-and be a birth mother-I can honestly say that being a mother defines a part of me. But it certainly does not define my life. I do not for one instant believe that possessing a vagina entitles you to the "Better Parent Award."
I gave birth "naturally " and I breastfeed for two years-am I a better person?-no-but I am a saggier and more stretched person.
Is my son a perfect child?-nope, but he is dang cute.
Was my experience more real because my labor happened to be drug free?-I do not think so at all-unless excrutiating pain makes things real.

Mothering and creating life are choices not nominations for perfection.
I have gay male friends who are the most nuturing people in the world and should be parents as they possess every quality we associate with motherhood.
I know fecund females who should be spayed to keep from having kids because they suck at parenting.

A woman's life should not be classified by her breeding capabilties-either positive or negative. A person's worth should be defined by contributions not conceptions.


[Edited by Earthgoddess on 10-02-2000 at 10:22 PM]