More than I meant to say

[CharleyH]

I can't speak for other writers or artists, but that's not the way it works with me at all. I put stuff in because it appeals to my sense of what's right in the story. I never think "Oh yeah, it needs to be snowing here as a way of showing loneliness and silence. Good symbol." I have tried to work like that, and it just never works for me.

When I write I feel more than I think. I try to paint an emotional picture or mood in my stuff, and I try and tell a story. I make no effort to understand what I've done in terms of hidden meanings and symbolism. It may be there, but it's never consciously put there. Once you see something as a symbol, it becomes intellectualized and loses its emotional impact.

---dr.M.

We all have our ways of writing, and reading. I'm not saying everyone has to sit down and torture themselves over every semiotic detail. LOL Nothing would ever get written.

However, on, I guess you could say, a sub-conscious level, you're sense of 'right' for a story, your choice of setting has it's base in the language we communicate to eachother and therefore it is something others understand. If your character is lonely, empty, even if you don't think about it, your setting is more prone to reflect that state of mind. Depending on the character, that setting could be a long expanse of never-ending snow, or a crowded street during rush hour. It depends what's right for the character and story I agree, but it will still symbolically work to emphasize the psychological state of the character, or at least the emotional space of the character will seep into the place that he/she inhabits. Your choice will have been made on a level of understanding symbols to communicate that emotion.

The cross is a symbol, and as far as I can tell reading various threads here, it doesn't lose it's emotional impact because it is an object. All symbols (again, I just don't like limiting myself to this word) are attached to thoughts - thoughts ultimately to emotional reactions.

Fear for example, is much greater at night than during the day. More heightened in a foggy New England town than on a sunny California beach. The whole semiotic milieu of reading a (simple)paragraph about a woman, alone, walking down the street in the middle of the night with a man behind her will elicit more fear in a reader than if she were walking down the beach with a surf board.

Not saying that the opposite could not also occur if written in a particular way, but the agreed upon language that we communicate with one another, and the understood symbols of our culture have us imagine that there is more to fear at night.

One may not think about symbols when writing, but that doesn't mean they aren't there.

As for hidden meaning. The only hidden meaning anyone could get from a story would be the authors psyche which would be hard to read with certainty from one poem, let alone one story. Only when it is recurring through a body of work would it gain any significant meaning.

I like the discussion Dr. M/Colly. Thanks.

 

[matriarch]

.

Re: Cartoon..............

Brilliant. Laughed out loud too. We've all seen them and heard them. The pretentious ones. I can even do it myself sometimes, but its damn hard work thinking up all them long words.

Thanks for an intellectual larf.

Mat

 

[matriarch]

I like the discussion Dr. M/Colly. Thanks.

Charley, as always.......

Pertinent
Perspicacious
Erudite
Learned,
Logical,
Philosophic
Profound
Rational
Reflective
Sagacious
Sapient
Theoretical
Thoughtful
Wise

And a damn good read, to boot.

Mat

 

[CharleyH]

Charley, as always.......

Pertinent
Perspicacious
Erudite
Learned,
Logical,
Philosophic
Profound
Rational
Reflective
Sagacious
Sapient
Theoretical
Thoughtful
Wise

And a damn good read, to boot.

Mat

LOL, I know a little about somethings and a hell of a lot more about nothings.

 

[matriarch]

LOL, I know a little about somethings and a hell of a lot more about nothings.

I would assume that applies to all of us. It sure as hell, does to me.

As with Colly, and Perdy and many others here in AH, its not only the knowing that impresses, (it does, don't argue with an old lady, its impolite); more, it is what you do with that knowledge, how it is expressed and passed on to others.

None of you (I am using a collective 'you', here much like the royal 'we', to cover most of the literati, I do not wish to fall into the trap of exclusivity) patronise or pummell or pound. You merely describe things as you see them. With clarity and fairness.

I was simply thanking you, and all those who correspond in a similar reasoned manner, for their restraint and awareness of, and respect for, the point of view other correspondents. Characteristics all too painfully absent in some other threads.

Colly, I appear to have hi-jacked your thread. My apologies for this slight detour. It's all yours again.

Mat

 

[rgraham666]

Re: Re: Re: More than I meant to say

.

Giggles, laughs, Oh shit, laughs, snort, and so on and so forth and more of the same.

I'm gonna be busy for a while people.

Laughs…

 

[oggbashan]

I am more concerned that readers will understand one of my stories as I intended it than that they will seek and find unconscious symbolism.

Communication across cultures and experiences is difficult enough without seeking to convey complicated ideas.

Take one emotive word: 'black'.

I might mean just a colour (or absence of colour). To a US citizen even the word alone can mean so many things that I cannot comprehend and did not intend to apply. Some UK English expressions 'Black as the Ace of Spades' have changed their meaning over the last 20 years. Do I understand what that expression means to a 20 year old West Indian? a 20 year old son West Indian descent whose family has been UK resident for 40 years? etc. I have no hope of understanding the nuances of that word in Alabama or the suburbs of Washington D.C.

How can I avoid unintended symbolism? How can I avoid Pavlovian responses that I do not know I have triggered?

It ain't easy just to tell a story.

Og

 

[CharleyH]

It ain't easy just to tell a story.

Og

I believe some things/symbols are cross culturally understood, although the concept that you have, or that I have will be different unless you give me further details. Example: CAT. We both know what a cat is, and we both have an image of a cat in our minds, but I'm willing to bet we aren't thinking of the same type of cat. If I were to be more pointed and say a bluish purple, long haired, pugged faced cat, we might be closer to the same concept than we were before.

As P. pointed out earlier, as you do, and many have, there is what a writer writes and what a reader reads. If a reader were so passive, then everything you wrote would be read as intended. Fortunately, (LOL - Gauche will be after my butt for not finishing this earlier conversation) readers are active participants in a story, using their imaginations, bringing in their own experiences and symbolic concepts culturally, ideologically in order to make meaning of what they read.

How can you avoid the unintended?

An interesting question. I'm not so certain you can because you can't control the reader. Nonetheless, you can still guide the reader to understand your intended meaning, the implications of your intended story, the theme.

Does this make sense?

I'm lapsing into an Abs-moment.

 

[oggbashan]

How can you avoid the unintended?

An interesting question. I'm not so certain you can because you can't control the reader. Nonetheless, you can still guide the reader to understand your intended meaning, the implications of your intended story, the theme.

Does this make sense?

I'm lapsing into an Abs-moment.

It makes sense.

One thing I try to do in some of my stories is to refrain from detailed physical description of the characters. My intention is to allow the reader to build his or her own construct that is more specifically erotic. If the reader's preference is for a blue-eyed blonde, the character can be a blue-eyed blonde.

I try to avoid too much scenery and townscape. The reader can set the story in a familiar environment.

Of course another reason is that I know I'm not good at scene setting or physical descriptions so my sparse detail is easier - for me.

It also stops me describing the 44DDs.

Og

 

[rgraham666]

You always make sense Charley, at least to me. But I'm insane so that may not mean much.

I picked up on your statement of the reader being an active participant in the story. That is something I am concious of when I'm writing.

Many of the comments I receive have noted positively how well I write descriptions of settings and people. When I am writing these parts of my stories I strive to write enough to engage the reader's imagination without filling in the particulars completely.

Sort of like a verbal colouring book. The outline is there. The reader fills in the empty spaces.

 

[CharleyH]

You always make sense Charley, at least to me. But I'm insane so that may not mean much.

lol - we also speak the same language. What is black on your side of town, is black on mine. Of course, then again, that would be a matter of east side or west side, and whether we read the Post or Globe, in which case "Black" can have a whole new meaning.

 

[rgraham666]

lol - we also speak the same language. What is black on your side of town, is black on mine. Of course, then again, that would be a matter of east side or west side, and whether we read the Post or Globe, in which case "Black" can have a whole new meaning.

Ah yes, the man with one of the worst inferiority complexes I've ever seen. It's why he uses fifteen big words when four small to medium sized ones will do.

Every action I've seen him make in public screams "Look at me! I'm not inferior."

 

[gauchecritic]

Lecture by Barry Hines author of 'A kestrel for a knave' (Kes)

Me: "How do you put in all the symbolism, themes etc which we read into your (or other author's) work in Eng. Lit. classes?."

B. Hines: "I don't."

* *

An AH regular sent me their thoughts on one of my stories which I'd offered as distraction. They pointed out the seemingly bleak outlook of the characters involved "each being victims and knowing but not caring."

I didn't write it like that, but when I thought about it, that is a facet of the place where I live (ex-mining community) and my characters were obviously of the town.

I thanked them for highlighting this unseen effect for me and in reply was given some personal details as to how they came to this conclusion. These details bore absolutely no resemblance to my experience and so give rise to the thought of resonance, which may go some way to explaining Colly's literalism.

Last year I was happy to point out the themes, symbolism etc for an author at this site who was quite shocked to find that they were there at all and also expressed my opinion that these things are the credits of a good author. (for any given value of good)

So as Mab. has said, knowing about these 'tricks' and 'effects' and finding them in your work isn't the same as inserting them for specific purposes and I think, more often than not, if it's an engaging story then their presence will not be distracting or even apparent to the casual reader.

Gauche

 

[Guest]

Love the Calvin and Hobbes, perdita!

This discussion reminds me a bit of a grad class about Aesthetics of Music. I remember suffering through a lengthy discussion (hell, an entire book) of "Hope in the Hebrides."

Though often it is necessary and even enjoyable to find a greater purpose or meaning in almost everything, sometimes that difficult search can actually spoil some of the joy.

On the Musical Representation of Cognitively Complex Emotions, Without Appeal to the Existence of Musical Personae

I used to enjoy Shostakovich.

 

[ABSTRUSE]

I
How can you avoid the unintended?

An interesting question. I'm not so certain you can because you can't control the reader. Nonetheless, you can still guide the reader to understand your intended meaning, the implications of your intended story, the theme.

Does this make sense?

I'm lapsing into an Abs-moment.

Frightening, isn't it?

 

[Remec]

Re: Re: More than I meant to say

I hated English class. I hated writing reviews. I only saw the themes/ideas that reached out to me when I read something, and not all 1000 possible different meanings other people had attributed to the piece of work, and this frustrated me, not because I didn't see them, but because of the way class was structured, I would be penalised for it in the way of marks etc. And I thought, really, you think the author really intended to put all that in? It was to the point that I wouldn't bother to read the book, and would just go around and ask 10-15 students what they thought of the book/article and then write my review.

My problem was always that every class or course I took where the teacher or professor wanted to know what we thought the author was trying to say invariably meant "what did I tell you the author meant?" or "what is the established train of thought on the meaning behind the author's writing?"....unless you can back it up from actually commentary or analysis from the author, any assessment comes first from your opinion and then from the opinion of others, neither of which might have anything to do with the intent held by the author.

Which, for all we know, might have been as simply as..."Hmm, that seems like a nice idea that someone will give me the money for my rent for."

 

[Remec]

I'm far too literal minded to deliberately put symbolism in any of my writing.

I'm sure it will be there, but I don't set out to put it in.

I'm more concerned with the characters and setting. I'm always asking "Am I describing the characters well? Can the setting be seen?" I want emotion to be communicated, not some high falutin' deep meaning.

But that's just me.

The most intentional I get is to break out a etymological guide and give the characters and/or the places they live and work and whatnot names that secretly relate to either some aspect of who/what they are or else to something within the story's theme or plotline. And, occasionally, little visual cues that deal with the same thing.

But, it doesn't happen a lot, and, such things are mostly meaningless unless you happen to come from a background or culture similar to me and catch sight of what I might have meant by it.

 

[cantdog]

The gap in between written intention and reader perception is there in all language use. That's why the Telephone Game works so often.

Telephone Game-- I whisper to my neighbor a simple two or three sentences, she whispers it to her other neighbor, and so forth in concatenation around the circle. If there are eleven or so links in the chain, it is incredible how skewed and unrelated the final message from the eleventh person is from the initial message of the first.

International incidents can arise from mistranslations. A French diplomat says "La gouvernement de France demande..." which means the government of France asks. The translator puts the English words,"the French government demands..." into the earphones at the UN meeting, and the representative from the United States becomes suddenly very much a picture of offended dignity.

You just can't evoke, in anyone to whom you speak, the true message, in all its aspects and implications, that you would like to.

But as Charley remarked, that ain't all bad, and and Gauche said, it can be enlightening in a way to have the result fed back. It is one of the myriad of things that makes life as a human so endlessly fascinating, frustrating and cool, surprising and futile, all at once.

No, not at all, said Eliot. That is not what I meant, at all.

 

[ABSTRUSE]

Cantdog, you quoted Eliot from my favorite poem. I'm in love.

 

[cantdog]

I fell in love with that poem at sixteen.

You, I had to wait til this year.

 

[ABSTRUSE]

I fell in love with that poem at sixteen.

You, I had to wait til this year.

I'm swooning.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Thank you for the myriad of replies and thoughts. The question occured to me based on three different mails about one of my stories.

The story is set in Nazi occupied Paris and the Protag is a member of the French Resistance. In selecting a partner for my protag, I chose to go with a voluptuos, more expreienced woman and in the telling she morphed slightly into the wife of the garrisson commander. I don't think the theme is too over done, but certainly sleeping with the enemy is not original. I fleshed out this character with a few things I find interesting or sexy, a more matronly figue, large breasts, a title of nobility, an air of command and plenty of previous experience.

Again I wasn't delveing into anything new or original per se. In presenting the characters I chose a short dialogue to impart some information followed by a short action sequence to show others. Pretty standard techniques.

The thing was in talking to one another the question of why are you helping me came up and I had the character answer a particular way. A way I felt was in keeping with her personae and therein lies a tale.

I recieved multiple mails from Germans & some emmigrants thanking me for portraying a German character of the period as something other than evil or stupid. Apparently the part the civilian populous played in the crimes of the Nazi regime is still a delicate subject in a lot of circles. I was praised by one respondant for having the Courage to show my character as a person rather than as a symbol.

I wasn't being courageous, I was just trying to write a character that would seem real. Someone readers could like & identify with. The story was not written with any concious thought on my part to be social/politcal commentary. And yet after hearing what these folks had to say and doing a little research I found it is just that. Totally unconcious on my part, but very obviously there once pointed out to me. I just wondered if any of you had had similar experiences?

-Colly

 

[cloudy]

After thinking about this, and then going back to look at my stories, I noticed something.

There's a lot of water in my stories. Showers, beaches, baths, whatever. It's there, and it wasn't clear to me until now. How odd.

I have no idea what this says about me.

 

[Belegon]

LOL this thread could lead to a potentially dangerous re-reading of my own work.

Bottom line, things happen or are said in my stories because I either like it and want it or it just feels correct. I am absolutely certain that my own thoughts and opinions surface therein and I know for a fact my memories often are there verbatim or something that reminds me of a memory is there.

Great thread!

 

[oggbashan]

After thinking about this, and then going back to look at my stories, I noticed something.

There's a lot of water in my stories. Showers, beaches, baths, whatever. It's there, and it wasn't clear to me until now. How odd.

I have no idea what this says about me.

That clouds are wet.

They can be fluffy, threatening, transparent, dense but they are made of water vapour.

Today I watched a rainbow on the edge of a cloud. The setting sun was a just the right angle to make the cloud diffuse light.

I have never seen that before on a cloud - in a waterfall, on a ship's bowspray, yes - but not on a cloud.

Made me think of Cloudy and I sent her a thought picture. Doubt she received it - I am no good at ESP and several psychics have said that I am far too earth bound to radiate any aura. Apparently I block everyone else's aura with my scepticism.

Still - I tried.

Have a virtual hug, cloudy.



Og