More Life On Mars?

[R. Richard]

Frozen Bacterium Has Implications for Mars - NASA

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A newly discovered life form that froze on Earth some 30,000 years ago was apparently alive all that time and started swimming as soon as it thawed, a NASA (news - web sites) scientist reported on Wednesday, in a finding he said has implications for possible contemporary life on Mars.

The organism -- a bacterium dubbed Carnobacterium pleistocenium -- probably flourished in the Pleistocene Age, along with woolly mammoths and saber-tooth tigers, said Richard Hoover of NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center in Alabama.

Hoover discovered the bacterium near the town of Fox, Alaska, in a tunnel drilled through permafrost -- a mix of permanently frozen ice, soil and rock -- that is kept at a constant temperature of 24.8 degrees F (minus 4 degrees C).

"When they cut into the Fox tunnel, they actually cut through Pleistocene ice wedges, which are similar to structures that we see on Mars," Hoover said in a telephone interview.

These ice wedges contained a golden-brown layer about a half-yard (half-meter) thick, and this layer contained a group of microscopic brownish bacteria, Hoover said.

When he looked at a small sample of this bacteria-laden ice under a microscope, Hoover said, "These bacteria that had just thawed out of the ice ... were swimming around. The instant the ice melted, they started swimming. They were alive ... but they had been frozen for over 30,000 years."

This discovery, coupled with research released this week by the European Space Agency, makes it more likely that life could be found on Mars, Hoover said.

LIFE ON MARS?

Scientists have focused on Mars as the most likely spot in our solar system for Earth-like life, but none has so far been confirmed. What has been found is ample evidence that water once flowed on this currently cold and frost-locked planet.

This is significant because liquid water -- not ice -- has been seen as a prerequisite for life as it is known on Earth.

Images made by the European Mars Express space probe indicate a giant frozen sea near the Martian equator, the first time scientists have detected evidence of ice beyond Mars' polar caps.

This vast sea is covered by a layer of dust, which might be heated by the sun and could conduct heat down to create sub-surface layers of water from time to time, Hoover said.

"Those layers would be ideal regions for microbiological activity and so that means that the presence of this frozen sea, if that turns out to be precisely what's going on, it greatly enhances the possibility that there may be life existing on Mars today," he said.

The discovery of the living bacteria in Alaska's permafrost raises another possibility, Hoover said.

"The other thing that's exciting: Just like we found in the Fox tunnel of Alaska, frozen biology in the form of unicellular bacteria might even have remained alive, frozen in the Martian sea," he said.

Hoover found the bacterium in 2000, but it took five years to confirm that it was in fact a new form of life; the finding was published in January in the International Journal of Systematic and Evolutionary Microbiology, the official journal of record for such matters.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Frozen Bacterium Has Implications for Mars - NASA

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A newly discovered life form that froze on Earth some 30,000 years ago was apparently alive all that time and started swimming as soon as it thawed, a NASA (news - web sites) scientist reported on Wednesday, in a finding he said has implications for possible contemporary life on Mars.

The organism -- a bacterium dubbed Carnobacterium pleistocenium -- probably flourished in the Pleistocene Age, along with woolly mammoths and saber-tooth tigers, said Richard Hoover of NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center in Alabama.

Hoover discovered the bacterium near the town of Fox, Alaska, in a tunnel drilled through permafrost -- a mix of permanently frozen ice, soil and rock -- that is kept at a constant temperature of 24.8 degrees F (minus 4 degrees C).

"When they cut into the Fox tunnel, they actually cut through Pleistocene ice wedges, which are similar to structures that we see on Mars," Hoover said in a telephone interview.

These ice wedges contained a golden-brown layer about a half-yard (half-meter) thick, and this layer contained a group of microscopic brownish bacteria, Hoover said.

When he looked at a small sample of this bacteria-laden ice under a microscope, Hoover said, "These bacteria that had just thawed out of the ice ... were swimming around. The instant the ice melted, they started swimming. They were alive ... but they had been frozen for over 30,000 years."

This discovery, coupled with research released this week by the European Space Agency, makes it more likely that life could be found on Mars, Hoover said.

LIFE ON MARS?

Scientists have focused on Mars as the most likely spot in our solar system for Earth-like life, but none has so far been confirmed. What has been found is ample evidence that water once flowed on this currently cold and frost-locked planet.

This is significant because liquid water -- not ice -- has been seen as a prerequisite for life as it is known on Earth.

Images made by the European Mars Express space probe indicate a giant frozen sea near the Martian equator, the first time scientists have detected evidence of ice beyond Mars' polar caps.

This vast sea is covered by a layer of dust, which might be heated by the sun and could conduct heat down to create sub-surface layers of water from time to time, Hoover said.

"Those layers would be ideal regions for microbiological activity and so that means that the presence of this frozen sea, if that turns out to be precisely what's going on, it greatly enhances the possibility that there may be life existing on Mars today," he said.

The discovery of the living bacteria in Alaska's permafrost raises another possibility, Hoover said.

"The other thing that's exciting: Just like we found in the Fox tunnel of Alaska, frozen biology in the form of unicellular bacteria might even have remained alive, frozen in the Martian sea," he said.

Hoover found the bacterium in 2000, but it took five years to confirm that it was in fact a new form of life; the finding was published in January in the International Journal of Systematic and Evolutionary Microbiology, the official journal of record for such matters.

Yup, if there is life or was life, the most likely culprit is a bacteria like organism. Bacteria have proven existence in some of the most unlikely environments one can ponder. There are bacteria inside volcanoes.

 

[R. Richard]

What if the white stuff is cum?

Mars team ponders whether lander sees ice or salt

LOS ANGELES - Is the white stuff in the Martian soil ice or salt? That's the question bedeviling scientists in the three weeks since the Phoenix lander began digging into Mars' north pole region to study whether the arctic could be habitable.

Shallow trenches excavated by the lander's backhoe-like robotic arm have turned up specks and at times even stripes of mysterious white material mixed in with the clumpy, reddish dirt.

Phoenix merged two previously dug trenches over the weekend into a single pit measuring a little over a foot long and 3 inches deep. The new trench was excavated at the edge of a polygon-shaped pattern in the ground that may have been formed by the seasonal melting of underground ice.

New photos showed the exposed bright substance present only in the top part of the trench, suggesting it's not uniform throughout the excavation site. Phoenix will take images of the trench dubbed "Dodo-Goldilocks" over the next few days to record any changes. If it's ice, scientists expect it to sublimate — or go from solid to gas, bypassing the liquid stage — when exposed to the sun because of the planet's frigid temperatures and low atmospheric pressure.

"We think it's ice. But again, until we can see it disappear ... we're not guaranteed yet," mission scientist Ray Arvidson of Washington University in St. Louis said Monday.

Even if it's not ice, the discovery of salt would also be significant because it's normally formed when water evaporates in the soil.

Preliminary results from a bake-and-sniff experiment at low temperatures failed to turn up any trace of water or ice in the scoopful of soil that was delivered to the lander's test oven last week. Scientists planned to heat the soil again this week to up to 1,800 degrees, said William Boynton of the University of Arizona in Tucson.

Phoenix landed in the Martian arctic plains on May 25 on a three-month, $420 million mission to study whether the polar environment could be favorable for primitive life to emerge. The lander's main job is to dig into an ice layer believed to exist a few inches from the surface.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

It's cocaine.

Now watch how fast we find a way to Mars.

 

[R. Richard]

It's cocaine.

You've found the secret! The ovens are actually intended to cook the cocaine into rocks of crack cocaine.

 

[WRJames]

Actually we have no idea if life originated on Earth or just migrated here once conditions permitted. The evidence seems to be that as soon as Earth cooled down enough life appeared here almost at once. That to me suggests that it may have moved in from somewhere else. If that's true, then we would expect to find similar life forms on Mars.

 

[R. Richard]

Actually we have no idea if life originated on Earth or just migrated here once conditions permitted. The evidence seems to be that as soon as Earth cooled down enough life appeared here almost at once. That to me suggests that it may have moved in from somewhere else. If that's true, then we would expect to find similar life forms on Mars.

There is a respectable theory called Panspermia. Panspermia is the hypothesis that 'seeds' of life exist already all over the Universe. Life on Earth may have originated through migration of these 'seeds.' Panspermia, in general theorizes that the 'seeds' may deliver or have delivered life to other habitable bodies.

 

[amicus]

That theory of 'emergence', I have been laboring over in another thread, fits in quite nicely with the thoughts expressed here. It seems that all the ingredients of life are present at or near the formation of a planet and the heat and pressure of that formation 'cooks' the mixture in such a way as to prepare it to acquire 'life', of the single cell nature, which eventually evolves.

According to this theory, there should be some forms of life on every planet in our solar system, thus, every planet in the universe.

interesting...


amicus...

 

[dr_mabeuse]

"Emergence" is a descriptive theory, not a predictive one. It says absolutely nothing about the likelihood of more complex systems arising from simpler ones.

 

[WRJames]

"Emergence" is a descriptive theory, not a predictive one. It says absolutely nothing about the likelihood of more complex systems arising from simpler ones.

Yes -- attempts to calculate those odds seem to indicate that life quite unlikely.

 

[amicus]

Actually, Mab, it is both and not in a complex, theoretical manner either.

'Emergence' describes not only the method of the creation of matter, but the inevitable progression of events, leading to such things, as the formation of a solar system and the composition of a sun and the planets.

So, indeed, it does relate to complex systems evolving from more simple ones, even to the extent of the emergence of life under many varying environments and conditions.

The theory clarifies the essential laws of nature and drives another nail in the coffin of subjective, random events in the Universe, which is why I singled it out for discussion.

For if, A, then, does not B, follow? If all things in the universe are emergent and evolving along rational lines, then so is the human mind and in essence, human actions, thus right and wrong.

Of course when one is not seeking answers, merely confirming one's own beliefs, 'emergence', as with any other logical arrangement of facts and events, simply gets in your way.

Amicus...

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Have a look: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence

""Defining structure and detecting the emergence of complexity in nature are inherently subjective, though essential, scientific activities. Despite the difficulties, these problems can be analysed in terms of how model-building observers infer from measurements the computational capabilities embedded in non-linear processes. An observer’s notion of what is ordered, what is random, and what is complex in its environment depends directly on its computational resources: the amount of raw measurement data, of memory, and of time available for estimation and inference. The discovery of structure in an environment depends more critically and subtly, though, on how those resources are organized. The descriptive power of the observer’s chosen (or implicit) computational model class, for example, can be an overwhelming determinant in finding regularity in data."(Crutchfield 1994)"

My bolds--dr.M.

 

[amicus]

How amusing, Mab, not to include you in the Global Warming Panic, but had you applied the above criteria to the false assumptions concerning climate change, Al Gore would never have been born.

You miss the point of Emergence, intentionally I suppose as it totally confronts the arbitrary, random, deterministic philosophy that most advocate on this forum.

And, if you are the least bit familiar with the methodology of astro physics, you would applaud the efforts to refrain from 'computational models', and the reliance upon observable phenomenon.

Emergence does provide an alternate foundation for conceptualizing human behavior, a far more personally satisfying one than the theoretical mathematics usually employed to bewilder a reader concerning Uncertainty concepts.

Amicus...

 

[R. Richard]

The ultimate test of any model is prediction. If a model is unable to accurately predict future data from analysis of past data, then the model is flawed. Even a model that accurately predicts future data from past data may be flawed, since more future data will be gathered as time passes.

However, even a flawed model may be extremely useful. Newton's mathematical model of the universe is known to be flawed in certain areas. However, we still live in a Newtonian universe and use Newton's mathematical tools to predict events in our day to day world.

A real problem is working without a model. People who work without a model are unable to even detect errors in thinking, since there is no predictive model with which to work.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Emergence does provide an alternate foundation for conceptualizing human behavior, a far more personally satisfying one than the theoretical mathematics usually employed to bewilder a reader concerning Uncertainty concepts.

Amicus...

Much more satisfying than those nasty old mathematical equations we find so bewildering.

 

[amicus]

I suspect there exists an innate psychological aberration that drives the left to defend so ferociously the premise that nothing can be learned with certainty.

Aside from the visible facts the millenia of mankind have built conceptual block upon block to the extent we have walked on the moon and extended the human lifespan, our 'doubting Thomas's' continue to insist that knowledge, thus all human action, is subjective and a personal whim.

While the left prefers an agrarian existence, sitting around a campfire, contemplating navels, the rest of mankind has always forged ahead into the future.

I suppose, like bugs and other pests, they will always be with us.

Such a deal.

Amicus...

 

[shereads]

It's cocaine.

Now watch how fast we find a way to Mars.

It's flour. Let's make snickerdoodles.

 

[shereads]

"Emergence" is a descriptive theory, not a predictive one. It says absolutely nothing about the likelihood of more complex systems arising from simpler ones.

You liberal intellectuals! You think you're so smart just because you're so smart.

 

[amicus]

Alas, could I only confess that I, too, have learned nothing and know nothing and thus have gained wisdom, hell, I could be a Liberal!

Ami

 

[shereads]

deleted as pointless