Misbehavin'-- Appropriate penalty for adolescent.

[Pure]

(Vote in the poll, regarding penalty)

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,490860,00.html

June 26, 2007



Turkey Rejects German Appeals to Release Student

{17-year-old student Marco Weiss has been in a Turkish jail for 10 weeks. Faces an 8- year term for sexually abusing a child.}

Turkey has rejected direct appeals by German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier to release a 17-year-old German student arrested for having sex with a 13-year-old girl. The case is attracting growing attention in Germany where politicians are warning it could hurt Turkey's bid to join the EU.


The Turkish government has refused an appeal from the German government to release a German teenager who has been held in a Turkish prison (more...)for 10 weeks on a charge of having intimate contact with a 13-year-old British girl while on holiday in the beach resort of Antalya.

"We can't and don't want to intervene in the case," Turkey's chief EU negotiator Ali Babacan said in Brussels following a meeting with German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier. Babacan added that his government would do "everything necessary to ensure he gets a fair trial."

The case has been widely reported in the German media which has made much of the fact that he has to share a jail cell, shower and toilet with 30 other foreign prisoners.

The head of the ruling conservatives' parliamentary group, Volker Kauder, went as far as to hint that Turkey's EU accession bid could be affected by the case.

"I can only call out to the Turkish government: If you don't set this young man free then Turkey's path to Europe will be miles longer."
Germans have so far donated €10,000 ($7,435) to a special account set up by the THW state disaster protection organization, of which Marco is a member, to help pay for his parents to travel to Turkey and pay legal fees.

Steinmeier said: "We respect the independence of the Turkish justice system." But he urged the Turkish authorities "to help find a solution so that the youth can return home to his parents in Germany as soon as possible."

Steinmeier said he had discussed the "humanitarian aspects" of the case with Babacan and in a telephone call with Turkish Foreign Minister Abdullah Gül. Turkish TV news channel NTV reported that Gül had pointed out that the teenager couldn't be released unless the family of the alleged victim withdrew their legal complaint.

Meanwhile Marco said in a newspaper interview that the girl, named only as Charlotte M., had said she was 15 and that they had met in the hotel disco.

They had spent time on the beach the second day and she had invited him up to her room on the third day. He said he wanted to sleep with her but ejaculated prematurely and wasn't able to.
He told Bild newspaper: "She had pulled down my underpants. I didn't touch her vagina."

He said the girl had looked angry when he left the room and gave him a strange look at breakfast the next day. The next day the police came and told him a legal complaint had been filed against him {by the girl's parents}. He went to the prosecutor's office with his parents, and was then taken to a court and arrested.

"I was shocked when the police told me she's only 13. If I had known she's 13 I wouldn't have gone that far. I'm not a criminal," said Marco.
He told the Turkish newspaper Hürriyet that he was not being mistreated in prison. The food was good too, although he would like to have French fries and steak on occasion, he added. He gets to see his parents once a week.

cro/AFP/AP/dpa/Reuters/ddp
===
previous story and details
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,490525,00.html

[initial portion deleted; excerpt only]

Charlotte M.'s mother... charged the young German with sexually abusing her daughter. The scene of the crime was the double bedroom the 13-year-old girl stayed in with her 14-year-old sister, according to Mrs. M., who had booked a separate room for herself.

[...] the 40-year-old mother apparently allowed her adolescent daughters to roam the enormous hotel complex unsupervised until after midnight.

But around 12:30 a.m., the two daughters returned to their room with no less than three guests. Marco Weiss was among them. He had flirted with the 13-year-old, who seemed older. The 14-year-old sister, who allegedly claimed to be 16, had brought along her own holiday acquaintance. A third young British girl followed the two couples. She was quite tired, lay down on the double bed and soon fell asleep.

Marco Weiss got cozy with Charlotte M. while her older sister and her companion amused themselves on the balcony. No one denies Marco and Charlotte made out under the blanket. In an interrogation during which he was barely given a chance to say anything, the high school student answered the question of whether or not they had sex with, "Yes." He was not able to explain what he meant. A gynaecological examination revealed that the 13-year-old is still a virgin.

[...]

 

[Weird Harold]

Babacan added that his government would do "everything necessary to ensure he gets a fair trial."

I think it is premature to be sentencing him when he hasn't even been to trial. Given the political turmoil involved, I suspect the Turks will either find him not guilty and decalre him persona non grata or they'll throw the book at him to prove their judiciary can't be bullied by foreign politicians.

 

[amicus]

When I first looked at this post, it had fifteen reads and no comments. (Now, one and forty one)Further, it seemed to me that there has been a flurry of such articles and items posted lately and in the news on cable television.

Then it dawned on me. The only responses on similar articles have been violent ones suggesting extreme punishment for those involved with young girls.

I question again the motive of the thread starter, but I know in advance I will not receive an answer.

So, how to present another side of this issue without being accused of being a pervert and a pedophile; well, probably not possible knowing my opponents, but, ah well.

I had not planned to offer comment, but while channel surfing, I ran across a film I had rented for a grand-daughter; “Zenon, Girl of the 21st Century” which features a thirteen year old girl, a very attractive young teenage girl.

Then I thought of the ‘Power Puff Girls’, cartoons on television that my grand-daughter used to love to watch. Then of the Anime Girls in both cartoons and films, very sexy little girls, so scantily clad that I asked my daughter if the grand-daughter should be watching such things.

I also fathered and raised five girls and found that they couldn’t wait to be all ‘grown up’, with make-up and hairstyles and the latest ‘girl’ fashions, all quite different than the era I grew up in.

That little background buildup was to set the foundation for the realization that young girls sexually mature younger, seem even to develop physically earlier, and, become sexually active much earlier.

It seems to be forgotten that girls as young as twelve, and perhaps younger, in a particular church, are still given in marriage at a very young age. It should be remembered that just a few generations ago, girls received no education and were married very young, not just in the United States, but world wide and some still are, I think, in the Muslim world, consisting of about a billion people.

I won’t speculate as to why society now looks down upon young marriages and the sexual activity of teenagers, where once it was a commonality.

The other side of this issue is that young girls are at a premium all over the world in the sex trade. Again, I will not speculate on why the ‘customers’ of young prostitutes are attracted to them other than to suggest that perhaps something in the nature of the beast when viewing a nubile young female, ’naturally’ elicits desire.

The environment has changed over the years in many ways. I covered high school and middle school sports for both boys and girls for radio and newspapers. If you don’t know, I can ascertain for you that some of these very young girls make themselves very desirable and are not strangers to seduction and entrapment.

I always did my interviews and photo sessions in a public place, surrounded by many people so as not to open myself to any charges of sexual harassment which has become commonplace and can destroy a career and a life.

While I in no way countenance violent sexual assault by anyone on anyone, I do think that a mutual responsibility ought to be taken into consideration concerning sexual contact between people of different ages.

As a parent, in these times, it is difficult to monitor the activities of your children, especially since most teen sex occurs between the time school gets out in the afternoon and five or six pm, when parents finally arrive.

As we in this ‘enlightened’ time have parental absence for most of the day, less than half with a two parent family, the task of ‘monitoring’ the behavior of children has largely been turned over to the schools and the state.

Current stories of students having sex in class, during the day, in hallways, behind the gym, anywhere they can find a semi private place, all tells me that a lot is going on that is not being taken into consideration.

I find it necessary to note the 'chilling effect', that the internet ban on discussion or stories of sex under age eighteen, even between consenting partners has placed limitations on our understanding of real events occurring in real time that may well have a great impact on many lives.

Perhaps this little ice breaker will elicit some comment.

amicus...

 

[Vermilion]

As usual Amicus you have become so mired in nostalgic recallings, theories and opinions that your primary point, if there is one, has been lost to it.

Having said that I think I would have to <gulp> agree with you, for once, on many of the things you almost said.

The only point I would disagree with is this

That little background buildup was to set the foundation for the realization that young girls sexually mature younger, seem even to develop physically earlier, and, become sexually active much earlier.

as I think children are naturally sexually aware much earlier than people really suspect...not that this means they are ready to engage in sexual relationships with anyone but themselves and their own hand I might add...

Where this becomes an issue is when children are exposed to culture that depicts sexually explicit behaviour and clothing, allowing children to learn and imitate this even if they do not realise the implications of it. Some adults perhaps forget that children may walk the walk and talk the talk but are still not emotionally or intellectually equipped to deal with the realities of such behaviour or the situations these may cause.

Without any clear point to discuss I cannot formulate my own argument any more clearly.

Have you read the thread about the 10 year old girl Amicus? I think R.Richard started it.

To refer specifically to this case I think that a 17 year old boy is probably similarly matured to a 13 year old girl (from my experiences, anyway) and should not really be held any more accountable for his actions than she is. In the British legal system, at least, he is still legally a minor, is he not? At the very least I think the case should be examined by the German or British courts, where these two *children* reside, not in Turkey which was merely the location...

x
V

 

[amicus]

Vermilion...thank you and I revisited the R.Richard thread and wish to compliment you on the fine job of presenting the in depth background, very well done.

I think you sense the same issues as I do.

amicus...

 

[Vermilion]

Vermilion...thank you and I revisited the R.Richard thread and wish to compliment you on the fine job of presenting the in depth background, very well done.

I think you sense the same issues as I do.

amicus...

<goes all jittery at being on the same side of the argument as Amicus...>

Happy Wednesday everyone!
x
V

 

[starrkers]

Haven't read Amicus's argument, or anyone else's, just the original post. Going out on a limb here and actually voicing an opinion.
I don't think the boy should ever have been charged. The girl's parents are another story - they let their child (and she is still a child) run around unsupervised at all hours and then expect the law to sort out the mess.
Fling THEM into a Turkish prison, not the poor 17-year-old sod who thought he'd just got lucky.
eta: I have a daughter, who will turn 15 in the next couple of months. I would no more let her loose unsupervised in an international hotel at all hours than fly.

 

[amicus]

Good luck with your daughter, beware, they are more clever than you might think.

Well said on the parents.

amicus...

 

[angelicminx]

Haven't read Amicus's argument, or anyone else's, just the original post. Going out on a limb here and actually voicing an opinion.
I don't think the boy should ever have been charged. The girl's parents are another story - they let their child (and she is still a child) run around unsupervised at all hours and then expect the law to sort out the mess.
Fling THEM into a Turkish prison, not the poor 17-year-old sod who thought he'd just got lucky.
eta: I have a daughter, who will turn 15 in the next couple of months. I would no more let her loose unsupervised in an international hotel at all hours than fly.

Quick post: I agree with this.

 

[starrkers]

Good luck with your daughter, beware, they are more clever than you might think.

Well said on the parents.

amicus...

Thanks, Ami. I am currently trying to walk that thin line between friend and parent.
I think I'm doing something right - she tells me who her crushes are (and which girls have been "putting out" and to whom, right now she thinks that's just wrong)
eta: she also accepts the curfews handed out.

 

[jomar]

Taking the story at face value, he deserves no further punishment. The girl could have easily looked fifteen or sixteen, as others have suggested. Mom need to have some accountability parenting-wise, but it won't happen.

 

[MagicaPractica]

This simply doesn't look like a case for the courts to me unless it's to tongue lash the parents and kids of both parties concerned. I don't think jail time is called for.

 

[shereads]

No jail time. But public caning, definitely. And he must sign a confession. If the inducement must include waterboarding, so be it.

 

[Pure]

ami referred to

the internet ban on discussion or stories of sex under age eighteen, even between consenting partners

there is no such ban. as usual it seems ami believes his own sphere (Literotica), is the the universe.

also, speaking unofficially, i know of no Lit ban of "discussion" of underage persons having sex, in fact it's happened often (like now, for example). The problem is around detailed accounts/stories of underage sex, which Lit, out of an abundance of caution, does not accept.

 

[Pure]

shereads,

i'm ok with the waterboarding* the young don johann, but you seem to overlook the OT requirements around the young lady proving her purity and veracity; something about [[eating lots of raw grain]]**; also there's that old one of throwing her into the pond, tied, to see if she floats or sinks.

---
glad you agree with AG that this is NOT torture. uncomfortable, of course.

**correction: actually, drinking 'bitter waters' see Num 5 :12

 

[shereads]

also there's that old one of throwing her into the pond, tied, to see if she floats or sinks.

That's a witchcraft test. For whoring, the biblical test is being stoned to death. If the rocks bounce, you were a virgin.

 

[Pure]

but clearly the young lady bewitched him, made him spill his seed, etc.

i think a test is in order.

 

[angela146]

Of course, there will be those who say that Turkey has the right to be draconian in its sex laws. However, if they want to be part of a united Europe, they need to conform at some level to the European view.

I like the fact that the EU is flexing its muscle to make countries behave more reasonably *and* establish at least a minimum standard of justice.

For example, the Brits had to separate their high court from the House of Lords in order to have a separation of powers between the legislature and the judiciary.

This is a case where the issues are more substantive and not just a matter of legal principle.

Yes, there ought to be a lesser punishment when the age difference is relatively small. *And* unless force or coercion was involved, *both* parties should be subject to some degree of penalty (with the younger person *maybe* getting more lenience).

Certainly the girl should not be let off completely just because she's a girl. If anything, girls are often more physically and emotionally mature than boys at that age so 17/13 isn't as much of a stretch as it may seem.

I remember being fourteen and desperately wanting to have sex. I got to third base with a couple of different boys... ahem a couple of years older than me... and I'm glad I did. It gave me enough of a "release" and enough of a taste of what it was like for me to be able to remain a virgin until I met my husband in college. It also gave me enough experience to be able to make it good the first time I got physical with "Mr. Right".

In high school, I would not have done it with a boy my age. They were too childish.

17/13 was out of my range. In eighth grade, I would not have known the seniors in high school and I was only interested in doing it with someone I knew and could trust.

However, 17/14 (senior/freshman) was very much in my range. Of course, in a school system with different brackets or with a boy who I was really sure of (oh, let's say a cousin or something like that) I could see maybe 17/13.

 

[angela146]

Oh, to answer the original question:

Presuming both were willing and no force/coercion was involved...

Mandatory counseling for both youths and both sets of parents.

Some kind of community service for *both* the boy and the girl, preferably in some kind of shelter for pregnant teens or a maternity ward for teens or some kind of STD clinic.

With the four year age difference, I might allow for a little bit more penalty for the boy. If the girl gets 60 hours and the boy gets 90, I'm probably OK with that. However, it should be a judgement call on the part of the magistrate.

If the age difference is any less (absent aggravating/mitigating factors) the penalty should be the same for both.

For the parents: Also some kind of similar community service (perhaps side by side with their child). A lot would depend on the level of discussion that had taken place beforehand. Did the teens know how/why to use a condom? Did they know how to get them? Did the parents talk to them about all the other issues revolving around sex?

The more the parents educated their children before the incident, the more lenient I would be.

And if there were other aggravating/mitigating factors, they should weigh heavily on the outcome.

 

[Pure]

Just in: Ten Years for Oral Sex (17 w 15); USA

No bail for Georgia man jailed for consensual sex at 17
POSTED: 2:25 p.m. EDT, June 27, 2007



ATLANTA, Georgia (CNN) -- A judge denied bond Wednesday for a teenager who's serving a 10-year prison sentence {so far, 2 years} for having consensual oral sex when he was 17 with a 15-year-old girl, an aide to the judge said.

Douglas County, Georgia, Superior Court Judge David Emerson said Genarlow Wilson's conviction makes him ineligible for bail, despite a court ruling this month that reduced his sentence to one year, according to The Associated Press.

Attorneys for Wilson, who has already served two years in prison, are fighting to win bond for the 21-year-old while his unusual case makes its way through the courts.

The case revolves around a New Year's Eve party outside Atlanta in 2003, when Wilson, then 17, engaged in the sex act with a 15-year-old girl.

Under a now-changed Georgia law, Wilson was convicted of felony aggravated child molestation. Wilson was acquitted on a second charge of raping a 17-year-old girl at the party -- who prosecutors maintained was too intoxicated to consent.

Wilson received a 10-year sentence, which was mandatory under the law.

Partly as a result of Wilson's conviction, state legislators changed the law to make such consensual conduct between minors a misdemeanor, rather than a felony. But that change wasn't made retroactive, so it did not affect Wilson.

Wednesday's ruling makes it more likely that Wilson will remain in prison until at least October, when the Georgia Supreme Court is expected to hear his appeal, AP reported.

Wilson's attorneys have been spurred by a legal victory this month when a Monroe County Superior Court judge ruled that Wilson's punishment was cruel and unusual and voided it on constitutional grounds. (Watch the day's twists send supporters on emotional roller coaster )

The judge reduced the sentence to one year and said Wilson should not