Minority childrens football. (political that is)

[Ishmael]

A recent study done in Arizona showed that children from latin households were classified as "learning disabled" at an alarming rate in mostly white school districts. Up to 47% higher numbers than in minority districts. In contrast, those latin children that went ot magnet schools were classified as "learning disabled" at a lower rate than at minority schools.

Further research showed that these children were not so much "learning disabled" as the were "learning deficient". It was found that there was no identifiable organic reason at play and that these children could be returned to mainstream after attending remedial reading classes. Actually, as large a number of 70% were found to have NO learning disability at all.

So whats with this?

The first point is that classifying these children as "learning disabled" qualifies the school for federal funds under the Americans with Learning Disabilities Act. There is a financial reason for school administrators to classify as many of these children as "disabled" as is reasonably possible. This is done without regard to the long term consequences of this classification on the child.

The second point is that this classification places these children outside of the standardized testing used to grade the schools. So there is another administrative reason to taint these childrens records. If their scores are not tallied with the rest of the schools population, the school recieves a higher score than it is legitimately entitled to.

While neither of these artifacts were the intent of the Act, they are the result of the act when implemented by school administrators who have less than the childs interest at heart. It is also another example of what happens when well meaning people attempt to devise a "one size fits all", social engineering, solution to a problem best handled locally.

The only question here is whether they are going to 'tinker' with it until it resembles the US Tax Code, or shit can this ill concieved program altogether. Anyone want to bet?

Ishmael

 

[Fawkin'Injun]

To paraphrase Donovan McNabb. I can't believe that people in America would still think in terms of race...

 

[Saint Peter]

Further research showed that these children were not so much "learning disabled" as the were "learning deficient".

It is hard to take a test in English when you do not speak the language. Count up the number of missed answers, go to the chart, and looky there...another kid is picked up by the short bus.

 

[Ishmael]

Re: Re: Minority childrens football. (political that is)

It is hard to take a test in English when you do not speak the language. Count up the number of missed answers, go to the chart, and looky there...another kid is picked up by the short bus.

Yep, throw them into a category they don't belong in. But that still doesn't answer why they aren't classified that way in the minority schools or the magnet schools. Would it be wrong to assume that they use the same charts and standards? And if not, why not?

Ishmael

 

[Fawkin'Injun]

German class was hard for me too. I couldn't get the answers because I didn't speak the language. But then, everyone knows Ahm short bus material...

 

[Fawkin'Injun]

And math used to eat me alive because I wasn't very fluent in that language either. But I buckled down, studied hard, and ended up with a minor in math. I suppose I could have thrown my hands up and accepted a lifetime in the fast food industy.

But, you know, I know a lot of guys who settled for pumping gas.

They never saw that self-serve thingy coming down the pike.

 

[Angel]

I'm guessing it's harder for those 1st graders who've spoken mainly spanish at home for the first 6 years of life to "Buckle Down" and study enough on their own to speed up their understanding of English.

 

[IDreamofBunnies]

I'm guessing it's harder for those 1st graders who've spoken mainly spanish at home for the first 6 years of life to "Buckle Down" and study enough on their own to speed up their understanding of English.

Well that's tough shit isn't it?

My cousins use Spanish in the household (ugh.) and learned English in school during Kindergarden.

 

[Rex1960]

funny ? tricky ?

The more I think of it the more I'm confused. Ok - lemme try this.

My own country is Germany. Our official language is, not surprisingly, german. And of course in school and kindergarden they teach our children german.

Now it appears, that in some schools, to be more specific in some classrooms, the number of kids unaware of german is even higher than the number of native german speakers.

And voices, demanding to teach those kids russian, turkish, spanish, serbo-croatian and such, are rising.

My 2ct ?
Learn the fucking language of the country, in which you wanna live. You can't follow ? I don't fucking care.

 

[Angel]

Yep, tough shit for those little 5 year olds who have no choice as to what languange they grow up speaking, and as a result have a bit of a harder time

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Schools are much less willing to label kids as needing extra help, despite any increase they might get in administrative funding. First of all, the ladies in the office don't do the labeling. There is quite a professional process to go through, ususally involving people outside the particular campus. And secondly, kids who need extra help alos require extra time and attnetion, something teachers are LOATHE to give, particularly those here in California and elsewhere whose time is already totally encompassed with the Open Court teaching system.

My experience as a father who (along with my wife) is deeply involved in the school system is that teachers desperatley need parents to be involved. The Mexican and Hispanic kids in my kid's school (and that's about half the school) have a much, much lower experience of parental involvement, not just in PTA type stuff, but in helping kids with homework. The prevailing Latin attitude is "my kid's in school and the teachers will take care of all that". Language is also a problem -- many parents don't speak English, and can't help if they wanted to.

Teachers unfortunately translate that into "this kid has trouble learning", which isn't the case.

As with most school situations this problem could be great solved with a strong PTA or PASS program on every campus.

 

[Rex1960]

Yep, tough shit for those little 5 year olds who have no choice as to what languange they grow up speaking, and as a result have a bit of a harder time

That's true. I was more referring to those parents, who chosed to live here now. And once they're here they're demanding their own native language in our school ? And of course payed by general taxes. That's just plain wrong.

 

[weed]

The only question here is whether they are going to 'tinker' with it until it resembles the US Tax Code, or shit can this ill concieved program altogether. Anyone want to bet?

Ishmael

The Act works for those who are disabled but educable. And as per entages of those rise the fundings are necessary. Unless we want a class of uneducated, disabled people who are unable to contribute to society and their own living.

The problem is using accountability the way we have for education reform. (Talk about tax codes.) There is no way for the schools to account for the poor scores and the students end up labeled incorrectly to avoid loss of the school's much needed funding. (I hate that whole labelling thing...an over-used but necessary evil.)

There needs to be assessment of enrolling children and availability of courses in English as a second language. I've seen from the school's in my area the identification has begun but I'm not so sure the courses are available. Then again the need isn't as great in my area.

Change is never easy.

 

[Ishmael]

Schools are much less willing to label kids as needing extra help, despite any increase they might get in administrative funding. First of all, the ladies in the office don't do the labeling. There is quite a professional process to go through, ususally involving people outside the particular campus. And secondly, kids who need extra help alos require extra time and attnetion, something teachers are LOATHE to give, particularly those here in California and elsewhere whose time is already totally encompassed with the Open Court teaching system.

My experience as a father who (along with my wife) is deeply involved in the school system is that teachers desperatley need parents to be involved. The Mexican and Hispanic kids in my kid's school (and that's about half the school) have a much, much lower experience of parental involvement, not just in PTA type stuff, but in helping kids with homework. The prevailing Latin attitude is "my kid's in school and the teachers will take care of all that". Language is also a problem -- many parents don't speak English, and can't help if they wanted to.

Teachers unfortunately translate that into "this kid has trouble learning", which isn't the case.

As with most school situations this problem could be great solved with a strong PTA or PASS program on every campus.

I think you folks have missed the my point entirely. It is not the minority schools or magnet schools that are mis-labeling these kids. It's the majority white schools in which latinos find themselves enrolled. This is NOT helping these kids.

I don't need an explanation on what the problems are. I grew up in El Paso, remember? Or maybe you might go read my thread labled "Raul" also. I attended those schools. Both majority latino, majority white, and one that was 50/50. I lived it, don't need no explanations.

You're right about the latino attitude towards education. The majority of the parents don't care because their parents didn't nor their parents before them. It's endemic to the culture. More specifically those latinos of indian descent, which is the overwhelming majority of US latinos. Those of European descent place much more value on education.

There is a thread of logic here that implies they should be labled as "learning disabled" because they can't speak the language. If that's the case then English emmersion classes are called for. The sooner the better. Teaching them in their native tongue does nothing for them at all. It may improve some scores, but as soon as they hit the real world it's back to day labor for the majority of them. My biz, and most others, require the ability to communicate, read, and write English. Study after study has shown that a command of the language is a requisite for success. Catering to their native tongue denies them the very tool they need to put their education to work for them. Hell, even the majority of latinos in California are against spanish only classes.

Regardless, these kids are being cheated of an education by a group of administrators that seem to be more concerned about the money than the children. (I hope that you've noted throughout this thread that I've laid the blame directly at the door of the administrators. I'm fully aware that the teachers have little to do with this classification system.)

Ishmael

 

[RobDownSouth]

A recent study done in Arizona showed that children from latin households were classified as "learning disabled" at an alarming rate in mostly white school districts. Up to 47% higher numbers than in minority districts. In contrast, those latin children that went ot magnet schools were classified as "learning disabled" at a lower rate than at minority schools.
<snip>

Okay, this post serves as a textbook example of why Ishmael is the Master of Misinformation on Literotica today. He's calling for yet another jihad against the educational bureaucracy, and by golly, he's got the facts to back him up.

Or does he?

He's wringing his hands over a study's "alarming rate" of increased classification. Up to FORTY SEVEN percent more Hispanic students are classified as "learning disabled" in majority white school districts. The horror!

And you know what? IT'S TECHNICALLY ALL TRUE!

I looked up the study and found, for example, that the majority-white Canon school district in Arizona actually DID have a much higher rate of Hispanic students classified as "learning disabled"! Of course, when you are 97% white in a school district of 3018, that only leaves you with 90 or so Hispanic schoolchildren. And if those 90 had gone to primarily Hispanic school districts, about 9 to 12 students might be classified as "learning disabled"...but they go to a majority white school where an "alarming" 14 Hispanic students get the Academic Scarlet Letter! A total of somewhere from two to five students per school DISTRICT (as opposed to individual schools) are to blame for the downfall of civilization as we know it. And if you extrapolate it out to all forty school districts in Arizona (this being the absolute worst-case scenario, however unlikely....97% White across Arizona?) you'd have an "alarming" total somewhere between 80 to 400 students out of a sample of over 120,000 responsible the "illegitimacey" of public education in Arizona.

Ahh, you might say, gotcha there, Rob! You can't extrapolate like that, you need to break it down by white-majority and hispanic-majority schools. Well, I tried, but the scholarly academic treatise cited by Ishmael doesn't differentiate between the two. Perhaps it assumes a user's familiarity with the racial composition of each school district in Arizona?

But...but...that's incredibly sloppy research! you might retort. Well, yes, I'd reply, but you have to consider the source! The source? Oh yes, the source of this opus is none other than the Goldwater Institute, whose stated policy is, and I quote, "We believe that a market-based education system is necessary to safeguard liberty", in other words, they are apologists for school vouchers and have a vested interest in denigrating public education. In fact, their conclusion to this four-page, one chart, one typo academic treatise is....surprise!....we need school vouchers!

Isn't that a bit intellectually dishonest, Rob? Intellectually dishonest? Ooooh, am I glad you brought that up!!

Suppose the tables were reversed....you have white students attending majority-Hispanic school districts, what would your expectation be regarding the number of white students being diagnosed as "learning disabled"?

Well, as that noted philosopher Gomer Pyle once said, Surprise, surprise, surprise!

Buried deep in the study is another "alarming" statistic that white students are diagnosed with a higher rate of "learning disability" when they attend Hispanic-majority schools!

Sooooo...to summarize....white students get diagnosed at higher rates of "learning disability" when attending Hispanic schools and vice versa.

Oooooh, does that have a "ring of truth" to it? I don't think so!

Hmmmmmmmm...what does this tell us, Charlie Brown?

IT TELLS US THAT AT LEAST PART OF THE METHODOLOGY BEHIND THE STUDY IS FLAWED AND THAT THE REPRESENTATIVE SAMPLE OF MINORITY STUDENTS IS TOO SMALL TO BE CONSIDERED STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT.

In conclusion, yet another piece of dubious "research" put out by Literotica's own Prince of Lies.

You, gentle reader, have been suckered into...
http://iownjoo.com/freeimghost/robdownsouth/ishmaelMagic.jpg

Here's the original "research"

 

[Purple Haze]

Does it get any better than this?

 

[miles]

ThrobDownSouth

Your title should be "Too Much Time On My Hands"

 

[phrodeau]

The Ishmael card doesn't double the Racism card? It really should, in light of his comments above about Latino parenting skills.

 

[RobDownSouth]

Re: ThrobDownSouth

Your title should be "Too Much Time On My Hands"

Don't make me bust out the Miles card!

 

[Purple Haze]

Are you taking Yugio Card requests?

 

[RobDownSouth]

Are you taking Yugio Card requests?

Not right now, my backlog of Magic cards is pretty fierce.

 

[RobDownSouth]

The Ishmael card doesn't double the Racism card? It really should, in light of his comments above about Latino parenting skills.

Nope, that would be this card:
http://iownjoo.com/freeimghost/robdownsouth/RightWingRhetoricMagic.jpg

 

[Ishmael]

Re: Re: Minority childrens football. (political that is)

Okay, this post serves as a textbook example of why Ishmael is the Master of Misinformation on Literotica today. He's calling for yet another jihad against the educational bureaucracy, and by golly, he's got the facts to back him up.

Or does he?

He's wringing his hands over a study's "alarming rate" of increased classification. Up to FORTY SEVEN percent more Hispanic students are classified as "learning disabled" in majority white school districts. The horror!

And you know what? IT'S TECHNICALLY ALL TRUE!

I looked up the study and found, for example, that the majority-white Canon school district in Arizona actually DID have a much higher rate of Hispanic students classified as "learning disabled"! Of course, when you are 97% white in a school district of 3018, that only leaves you with 90 or so Hispanic schoolchildren. And if those 90 had gone to primarily Hispanic school districts, about 9 to 12 students might be classified as "learning disabled"...but they go to a majority white school where an "alarming" 14 Hispanic students get the Academic Scarlet Letter! A total of somewhere from two to five students per school DISTRICT (as opposed to individual schools) are to blame for the downfall of civilization as we know it. And if you extrapolate it out to all forty school districts in Arizona (this being the absolute worst-case scenario, however unlikely....97% White across Arizona?) you'd have an "alarming" total somewhere between 80 to 400 students out of a sample of over 120,000 responsible the "illegitimacey" of public education in Arizona.

Ahh, you might say, gotcha there, Rob! You can't extrapolate like that, you need to break it down by white-majority and hispanic-majority schools. Well, I tried, but the scholarly academic treatise cited by Ishmael doesn't differentiate between the two. Perhaps it assumes a user's familiarity with the racial composition of each school district in Arizona?

But...but...that's incredibly sloppy research! you might retort. Well, yes, I'd reply, but you have to consider the source! The source? Oh yes, the source of this opus is none other than the Goldwater Institute, whose stated policy is, and I quote, "We believe that a market-based education system is necessary to safeguard liberty", in other words, they are apologists for school vouchers and have a vested interest in denigrating public education. In fact, their conclusion to this four-page, one chart, one typo academic treatise is....surprise!....we need school vouchers!

Isn't that a bit intellectually dishonest, Rob? Intellectually dishonest? Ooooh, am I glad you brought that up!!

Suppose the tables were reversed....you have white students attending majority-Hispanic school districts, what would your expectation be regarding the number of white students being diagnosed as "learning disabled"?

Well, as that noted philosopher Gomer Pyle once said, Surprise, surprise, surprise!

Buried deep in the study is another "alarming" statistic that white students are diagnosed with a higher rate of "learning disability" when they attend Hispanic-majority schools!

Sooooo...to summarize....white students get diagnosed at higher rates of "learning disability" when attending Hispanic schools and vice versa.

Oooooh, does that have a "ring of truth" to it? I don't think so!

Hmmmmmmmm...what does this tell us, Charlie Brown?

IT TELLS US THAT AT LEAST PART OF THE METHODOLOGY BEHIND THE STUDY IS FLAWED AND THAT THE REPRESENTATIVE SAMPLE OF MINORITY STUDENTS IS TOO SMALL TO BE CONSIDERED STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT.

In conclusion, yet another piece of dubious "research" put out by Literotica's own Prince of Lies.

You, gentle reader, have been suckered into...
http://iownjoo.com/freeimghost/robdownsouth/ishmaelMagic.jpg

Here's the original "research"

Way to go. And it's all still true, as you pointed out.

Now as to the representative smaple being to small, whose determination is that? Your's?

And you didn't read the entire report. Because if you did, you'd know that it's 23 pages long, not the four pages you attribute to it. But at least you got to the right web site skippy. So you get an A for effort and a social promotion.

Ishmael

 

[LovetoGiveRoses]

So Ish, does the paper you cite list other examples of cases where minority students are classified as learning disabled when there's little in the way of supportable evidence other than ESL?

I read above comments about California. I believe (don't have referenced facts) that it was shown that new immigrants do much better when they're thrown in total immersion (kids learn language quickly) rather than being in ESL classes....so the immigrant families actually preferred that classes be taught in English.

 

[Ishmael]

The Ishmael card doesn't double the Racism card? It really should, in light of his comments above about Latino parenting skills.

Please show the quote where I refer to latino "parenting skills" or shut the fuck up.

Ishmael