"Minimum legal age is 18"

[lovecraft68]

Not that I've read all the previous threads on this, but it seems to me this is primarily a pragmatic approach by Literotica. I don't know exactly how this is done in the U.S., but anyone posting anything even remotely approaching underage-sex are at risk of being shut down where I live.

I see this as a 'better safe than sorry' approach to make sure the site stays safe, for our combined enjoyment.

[Rant]
As for the historical context of legal age increasing, why is this even an issue? It doesn't matter what was considered underage half a century ago, those are not the regulations the site has to adhere to. And as for working around the rules: It's not a victory if you manage to sneak in a sixteen-year-old girl having sex, it's a very real and looming threat to very site's existence if some do-gooder reports it to an overzealous government official.
[/Rant]

No do gooder can report lit-or any other site-to the government. It is not illegal to write about minors of any age engaging in sex or "It" would have gotten Stephen King put in jail with his underage female character running a train with four or five under age males.

Incest, snuff, bestiality, nothing is illegal to write in fiction.

The rules here are what the owner chooses them to be. In the case of underage its been explained she does not want the risk of sex offenders coming here to read underage stories because :aw enforcement does follow them and she would rather not be flagged as hot spot for pedo's.

Shame it hasn't been taken into consideration that other forms of sex offenders come here for other material and that the GB I am sure i being monitored to some degree for all its 'hate speech' but again the site is run on personal belief/whim and that's her right.

As for 'sneaking it'....sadly you don't have to. There is nothing resembling real screening here. What it comes down to is if you're a person who by nature will say Sure, I'll follow your rules regardless of what I think, or someone who has no respect for them and there are plenty of both here.

For every story you here rejected for under age rape or anything else there are a dozen or more that 'slipped' through.

And again the enforcement is by number. Call them 21 and let them act 12 and it never seems to be an issue which is why the rule frustrates me it seems way to 'wink wink' for me. Having said that I follow it anyway, no reason not to because the site has few rules in general so why bitch? Plus I have no desire to write it anyway.

 

[MiddleAgedMan]

No do gooder can report lit-or any other site-to the government. It is not illegal to write about minors of any age engaging in sex or "It" would have gotten Stephen King put in jail with his underage female character running a train with four or five under age males.

Incest, snuff, bestiality, nothing is illegal to write in fiction.

The rules here are what the owner chooses them to be. In the case of underage its been explained she does not want the risk of sex offenders coming here to read underage stories because :aw enforcement does follow them and she would rather not be flagged as hot spot for pedo's.

Shame it hasn't been taken into consideration that other forms of sex offenders come here for other material and that the GB I am sure i being monitored to some degree for all its 'hate speech' but again the site is run on personal belief/whim and that's her right.

As for 'sneaking it'....sadly you don't have to. There is nothing resembling real screening here. What it comes down to is if you're a person who by nature will say Sure, I'll follow your rules regardless of what I think, or someone who has no respect for them and there are plenty of both here.

For every story you here rejected for under age rape or anything else there are a dozen or more that 'slipped' through.

And again the enforcement is by number. Call them 21 and let them act 12 and it never seems to be an issue which is why the rule frustrates me it seems way to 'wink wink' for me. Having said that I follow it anyway, no reason not to because the site has few rules in general so why bitch? Plus I have no desire to write it anyway.

I suppose I stand corrected then, your argument about written litterature not being subject to the same rules as pictures/films etc. sounds reasonable. It's not that much of an issue to me, so not something I'd bother following up on anyway.

 

[oggbashan]

I suppose I stand corrected then, your argument about written litterature not being subject to the same rules as pictures/films etc. sounds reasonable. It's not that much of an issue to me, so not something I'd bother following up on anyway.

But Literotica is full of pictures!

 

[NOIRTRASH]

Everything is hate speech these days.

What blows my mind all the time is murder. Murder is the queen mother of criminal and immoral conduct, and its never a problem anywhere. Its in the Bible and anyplace you look. No problemo.

We go apeshit over a perfesser cautioning her students to be aware and sensitive to casual expressions of words like nigger, spic, kike, etc. Wise counsel but we're such delicate snowflakes the words cripple us like being struck with axe handles.

Asa grad student I did my internship at a rape treatment center. Homosexual rape victims were my target patients but I occasionally worked with females. One was a woman gang raped by black guys. During our first session she called these men GODDAMNED NIGGERS and my clinical perfesser went apeshit over her racism. He made it clear I fucked up by not immediately stopping the show to correct her attitude about the men who raped her. I thought my perfesser was nuts. Sticks and stones.

 

[MiddleAgedMan]

Everything is hate speech these days.

What blows my mind all the time is murder. Murder is the queen mother of criminal and immoral conduct, and its never a problem anywhere. Its in the Bible and anyplace you look. No problemo.

We go apeshit over a perfesser cautioning her students to be aware and sensitive to casual expressions of words like nigger, spic, kike, etc. Wise counsel but we're such delicate snowflakes the words cripple us like being struck with axe handles.

Too true. Just look at american film industry in particular: Killing people off the bat is no problem at all, I've even seen films rated 15 with quite graphic murders, but if you spot even the hint of a nipple it's 18 right away, it seems... I guess the morale is clear: You can kill people all you like, but don't even think about making new ones...

 

[NOIRTRASH]

Too true. Just look at american film industry in particular: Killing people off the bat is no problem at all, I've even seen films rated 15 with quite graphic murders, but if you spot even the hint of a nipple it's 18 right away, it seems... I guess the morale is clear: You can kill people all you like, but don't even think about making new ones...

Youll do less time in prison for stabbing a girl than if you sext her or send her a pic of your prick.

 

[Seanathon]

No do gooder can report lit-or any other site-to the government. It is not illegal to write about minors of any age engaging in sex or "It" would have gotten Stephen King put in jail with his underage female character running a train with four or five under age males.

It isn't illegal in the US, but it may be illegal in another country and Literotica is a site that is accessed worldwide.

In fact, there may even be countries where simply reading a story online with underage characters engaged in sexual activity is considered accessing child pornography. I have no idea where, if anywhere, in the 196 countries across this planet that this might be the case, but if it is I'm sure any Literotica readers there will be thankful they don't have to worry about accidentally opening any stories like that here.

 

[oggbashan]

It isn't illegal in the US, but it may be illegal in another country and Literotica is a site that is accessed worldwide.

In fact, there may even be countries where simply reading a story online with underage characters engaged in sexual activity is considered accessing child pornography. I have no idea where, if anywhere, in the 196 countries across this planet that this might be the case, but if it is I'm sure any Literotica readers there will be thankful they don't have to worry about accidentally opening any stories like that here.

In some parts of the world even fiction is considered criminal, as a lie.

 

[HandsInTheDark]

It isn't illegal in the US, but it may be illegal in another country and Literotica is a site that is accessed worldwide.

In fact, there may even be countries where simply reading a story online with underage characters engaged in sexual activity is considered accessing child pornography. I have no idea where, if anywhere, in the 196 countries across this planet that this might be the case, but if it is I'm sure any Literotica readers there will be thankful they don't have to worry about accidentally opening any stories like that here.

From Wikipedia:
In 1998 Brian Dalton was charged with creation and possession of child pornography under an Ohio [US] obscenity law. The stories were works of fiction concerning sexually abusing children which he wrote and kept, unpublished, in his private journal. He accepted a plea bargain, pled guilty and was convicted. Five years later, the conviction was vacated.

I'll note that the children in his text were aged 10 and 11, making this a combination of erotica about sadism and pedophilia, which will piss off most normal people, so I'm not surprised there was a conviction. I'm also not surprised Ohio ultimately ruled the law had been used too broadly. This is the only US case I have found where writing such material (note he didn't disseminate it) lead to a conviction. (That's just about the perfect outcome - the screwed-up asshole went to jail for awhile, but the laws were ultimately kept to a more restrictive reading; everyone wins.)

I can't find any cases where reading anything about underage teens is a problem in the US.

But note that sexting is a big legal quandry right now; as far as I know 17 year olds writing hot messages to adults isn't going to get the adult in legal trouble, but if she sent a picture it conceivably could. One of the rare and interesting cases where Susie can do something that puts Jimmy in jail. But I can't imagine those laws ever being extended to the reading of published erotica; at any rate there's a groundswell to get those laws eliminated.

On the other hand, there's an ongoing fight between hate seech and free speech. If anyone ever decides that stories extolling incest or other abuse of children amounts to hate speech against children, I could see posession of such material becoming illegal in at least some US states. Not likely but possible. I wouldn't shed any tears as long as those laws only applied to 12 and under characters, so it would not matter here.

I can think of legal system where consuming erotica wil get you in trouble (Sharia law for one) but you'd be in trouble there for any gross liscenscious; the age of characters doesn't matter. Lit's 18 rule doesn't help them. Lit doesn't care about those countries and would probably rather not have any readership there; some of those places have radicalized elements who might decide Lit is a valid target as a symbol of Western corruption. (If someone wants to take their life in their hands, but write a story with some profound cultrual commentary, try writing a jihadist who is torn between jerking off to hot American erotica and killing porn stars and erotica authors for the greater good. The outfall might get you mentioned in the news worldwide.)

Bottom line, I'm having trouble believing that Lit's under 18 rule is in the interest of maintaining anyone's legality. There's plenty of stuff here that violates plenty of laws in plenty of places already. I can't think of a place where a character under 18 is illegal and other things accepted here are all legal.

Hence, it's not a legal concern in and of itself. I can believe it's a moral one and I can believe it's a business decision (the first parent to name Lit in a lawsuit because her 16 year old got pregnant trying to act out a story here is going to ruin Lit's day whether or not Lit violated any laws, and maybe put them under.) But so far no one's baited Laurel into talking about her reasons (and I can't imagine she has any incentive to list them; it's an invitation to a pointless argument.) So we'll never know.

Having said all that - Lit has a significant population of under 18 readers. Over 18's I've talked to admitted they started reading stuff here when they were 15 or 16. That's not Lit's fault; short of credit card signups there's no way to stop it. But it makes me believe Laurel's reasoning is business based, not an application of ethics. If it was ethical there'd be more attempts to filter the readership, even if it's ineffectual.

Note I am not a lawyer.

 

[HandsInTheDark]

In some parts of the world even fiction is considered criminal, as a lie.

Cite? I'm coming up with plenty of places in which truth-telling is illegal (including the US, as Snoden proved, but China and Iran come to mind as prime examples of places where you really need to watch your mouth.) But I can't think of an example where fiction qua fiction is viewed as a lie and where lies are criminal.

I'm trying to imagine a land in which any lie was criminal and punishable. Aside from the impossibiliy of proving intent... what a terrifying and fascinating place that would be.

 

[Darkniciad]

Actually, Laurel did say why it's set at 18 a few times.

She said that she didn't want stories with really young kids on the site, so the bar had to be set somewhere. Since the legal age of adulthood is 18 in the U.S., it was set there. She also mentioned the specific case above in another post on the subject.

 

[oggbashan]

Cite? I'm coming up with plenty of places in which truth-telling is illegal (including the US, as Snoden proved, but China and Iran come to mind as prime examples of places where you really need to watch your mouth.) But I can't think of an example where fiction qua fiction is viewed as a lie and where lies are criminal.

I'm trying to imagine a land in which any lie was criminal and punishable. Aside from the impossibiliy of proving intent... what a terrifying and fascinating place that would be.

Fiction is considered incomprehensible by some strict Muslim societies - because the whole concept is untrue. "If it is written, it must be true" applies to the Koran in some interpretations, so if it is written but is NOT true, it is considered blasphemous. Reading anything that is not the Koran is unacceptable.

That doesn't apply to all lies because it is acceptable to lie to an unbeliever.

Even in European societies, the idea of fiction took some time to be accepted. While fiction, particularly for drama, was a feature of Greek and Roman literature, fiction as novel writing took centuries to become established. Books were so rare and expensive that copying anything that was just for entertainment was very unusual. Books were for conveying information and knowledge.

http://sciencenordic.com/origin-fiction

 

[asianToy]

OP: I'm not trying to pick on you, please don't hate me.

I don't hate. But if you read the post you'll see that it's not so simple. I wish to establish that the girl gets therapeutic massage without the encumbrance of under clothing. She's a bit uncomfortable about it. Then, when she turns 18, the massages become more and more a sensual, sexual thing. I need the history, that's all.

I guess I'll have her demonstrate her reluctance, and thus increase the drama, by keeping her panties on.

 

[sr71plt]

It isn't illegal in the US, but it may be illegal in another country and Literotica is a site that is accessed worldwide.

Oh, that doesn't have anything to do with the decision not to post underage here or the legality of anything, I believe. The site is registered in the United States. All a foreign country could do is to try to block the transmissions; it has no legal leverage. (Literotica is blocked as pornographic even in the States in many cafes and hotel business centers--but that, again, has nothing to do with law).

 

[HandsInTheDark]

Fiction is considered incomprehensible by some strict Muslim societies - because the whole concept is untrue. "If it is written, it must be true" applies to the Koran in some interpretations, so if it is written but is NOT true, it is considered blasphemous. Reading anything that is not the Koran is unacceptable.

That doesn't apply to all lies because it is acceptable to lie to an unbeliever.

Even in European societies, the idea of fiction took some time to be accepted...

http://sciencenordic.com/origin-fiction

Um.. the artice you cite is trash and shows what is most charitably described as a willful misunderstanding of one topic I know something about and another I have a nodding familiarity with.

As for reading anything other than the Koran being a sin in Islam, I don't know where you got it, but try https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_fiction . There might be *someone* out there who has decided that nothing but the Koran is halal for himself, but he'd be considered nuts. What you describe is not a feature of Islam and given the current responsibilities described in that wiki, it can't become one.

Allegory has been a standard feature of just about every written tradition we have examples of. Pilgrim's Progress is considered by some the first allegorical fiction of an "everyman" character and was well accepted by readers of the time. (I think there's some Chinese work that did something like that earlier but I can't find it quickly). I don't doubt there were semi-literate pesants who believed whatever they read was true, but before and during the middle ages there were quite a few educated people who understood and used allegory and fiction (and not just in writing).

In short, your post is bullshit, and at a quick glance at some other articles on that site you mentioned, you need to consider some better sources. Just saying.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I don't hate. But if you read the post you'll see that it's not so simple. I wish to establish that the girl gets therapeutic massage without the encumbrance of under clothing. She's a bit uncomfortable about it. Then, when she turns 18, the massages become more and more a sensual, sexual thing. I need the history, that's all.

I guess I'll have her demonstrate her reluctance, and thus increase the drama, by keeping her panties on.

Suggestion: what if she changes masseurs at age 18 for one reason or another? Might help establish the separation between non-sexual under-age massage and sexual over-18?

 

[Hypoxia]

Suggestion: what if she changes masseurs at age 18 for one reason or another? Might help establish the separation between non-sexual under-age massage and sexual over-18?

This is a fine mechanism. Her pre-18 rubdowns came from a mature asexual. Her post-18 kneadings are at the hands of a young hotty. The expected ensues.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Fiction is considered incomprehensible by some strict Muslim societies - because the whole concept is untrue. "If it is written, it must be true" applies to the Koran in some interpretations, so if it is written but is NOT true, it is considered blasphemous. Reading anything that is not the Koran is unacceptable.

In some Islamic fiction e.g. versions of the 1001 Nights you'll find a standard disclaimer for this reason, along the lines of "long ago, it is said (but only Allah knows for sure)..."

It'd be hard to combine that with the Western standard "all persons and events are fictional", but you could do a Literotica version: "She said she was over 18, but only Allah knows for sure..."

 

[sr71plt]

This is a fine mechanism. Her pre-18 rubdowns came from a mature asexual. Her post-18 kneadings are at the hands of a young hotty. The expected ensues.

Nice plot bunny. And I can fully understand that. I played a lot of competitive tennis when I was younger and worked out a lot in gyms. So, I'd had a lot of sports massages before I moved to Bangkok, where I continued playing tennis and joined a gym. How was I to know I'd joined a men's gym where not only I was initiated in male-male, but that the massages were full body massages?

 

[TxRad]

Tina got off the bus at the corner of 5th and Main. Usually her mother drove her downtown so she could get her massage but today her mother had other things to do. Her mother's last words as she walked out the door this morning had been, "You be extra careful today. It's your eighteenth birthday after all."

What her mother had said, didn't really mean much to Tina as she skipped long the sidewalk without a care in the world. Half a block later, she stopped suddenly, her eyes wide and her mouth slightly open. Her sex had clamped down tightly on nothing and her clit had started to tingle.

"What the heck?" Tina whispered in confusion as her nipples started to tingle.

She moved slowly across the sidewalk to lean on the wall of the drugstore. Something was wrong, very wrong. She pulled her phone out of her pocket so she could call her mother. As it came on, the time floated across the screen. Nine, fifty nine in the morning.

Tina giggled for a second. The giggle turned into a chuckle and then into a laugh.

With a big grin, she pushed off from the wall and walked down the street with a new swivel and sway to her hips. She was now officially eighteen and her sex life had officially started. Her grin took on a wolfish quality as she thought about the new young guy doing massages now.

"Old lady Dawson just lost another customer," she said to herself as she opened the door to the Massage Parlor.

 

[LukeWalker_HornyWidower]

My question is: Are there really therapeutic massage places that would allow a 16 year old to get fully naked?

 

[HandsInTheDark]

My question is: Are there really therapeutic massage places that would allow a 16 year old to get fully naked?

In Lit stories, sure.

In the real world, massage places vary in respectability. One writer for (I think) Jezebel (hate that rag) set out to get a happy ending massage. She had to try several places but she did find one that would oblige. My guess is there are places that wouldn't care about age if the girl was hot and paid well, but I suspect it's very, very uncommon.

But not as uncommon as 16 year old girls who would go into a massage parlor for a naked massage.

Lit's not about realism. Reality is rarely erotic.

 

[lovecraft68]

Oh, that doesn't have anything to do with the decision not to post underage here or the legality of anything, I believe. The site is registered in the United States. All a foreign country could do is to try to block the transmissions; it has no legal leverage. (Literotica is blocked as pornographic even in the States in many cafes and hotel business centers--but that, again, has nothing to do with law).

Exactly, a business only needs to obey the laws in the country within which it operates. I thought that was fairly obvious, but I guess not.

An example in the erotica world is fantasy incest videos are allowed here because they are actors, not real family members.

But there are a lot of real incest vids that originate from countries where its either not illegal or simply not enforced. German porn is pretty much lawless from what I've seen of it.

 

[lovecraft68]

What's amazing about this is many people in this thread have all been involved in this conversation/debate many times. It just keeps coming up and it never bothers me when its a new person doing it, because they aren't sure about things yet.

But then the same people will make the same points over and over again-including me-and we always will, its like a Pavlov's dog effect.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Exactly, a business only needs to obey the laws in the country within which it operates. I thought that was fairly obvious, but I guess not.

Mostly yes, but there have been some weird legal bullshit cases where courts have been very creative in interpreting that "within which it operates". Dow Jones v Gutnick was a pretty bad Australian example, and there's been at least one case where a court required Google to censor certain search results worldwide.