"Minimum legal age is 18"

[asianToy]

So, I'd like guidance. I have a story where the young woman begins visiting a massage salon at 16 for sports related therapy. There is no sexual contact until she's 18 but she does get massages without clothing. Obviously there is touching, it's a massage, but no orgasm or anything inappropriate happens, as the law is written, just a lot of her thinking about the encounters.

Is this forbidden by the minimum legal age rule?

At some point before 18 she becomes an intern and gives the staff practice massages and thinks she sees one of her coworkers masturbating while she is doing it.

Is this forbidden by the minimum legal age rule?

Is masturbation forbidden by the minimum legal age rule?

Is there an email I can submit the question for a definitive pre-approval?

 

[sr71plt]

Thinking graphically about sex is a form of sex. (Similar to the "but he was only watching sex at the age of twelve.") So, if what was written up about her thoughts while she was being given a massage before 18 was graphically sexual, I doubt the story would fly here. Probably would be seen as just another attempt to get around the rules.

I have ones where the protag fantasizes about what's going to happen on an eighteenth birthday (and it does), but the tension is provided in just that it's thought about and anticipated (and slightly feared), not that what is thought about is given in detail.

Masturbation is a sex act, so I assume you can figure that one out.

There's only one submissions editor, Laurel. To contact her, you have to send her a PM (private mail message, upper right on this page).

 

[lovecraft68]

The site is really anal about underage sex to the point the character thinking about sex or hearing or seeing someone else have sex will get the story booted.

Best thing you can do is bump her age to 18 when she starts getting these massages that way everything you want to do is fine.

 

[HandsInTheDark]

The only applicable law is laurel's decision. As far as I can tell, a rough summary of that law is "if it looks like it's under legal age and it gets aroused, or someone gets aroused by it, you can't post it".

Legal age seems to be the greater of what the story's culture considers age of consent, and 18.

 

[LJ_Reloaded]

If it's sex related, don't apply it to anyone under 18.

Easy rule to follow. Personally speaking I'm glad it's just that simple.

 

[lovecraft68]

If it's sex related, don't apply it to anyone under 18.

They should put this line in the rules.

Because for some reason it seems the way its worded now is confusing because this question-and usually an ensuing debate/argument comes up constantly.

 

[Hypoxia]

You may say underage sexual activity occurred; you may not describe it. "Sexual activity" includes thinking about sex; you may not have an adult fantasize about screwing a minor, nor vice-versa. A minor may be massaged but neither party may think about sex. It's best just to age your players.

 

[asianToy]

Thank you for your reply. One qualification, if I may. It seems to me, and I'll ask Laurel, if a young woman gets a massage and feels grossed out about it, without graphic sexual detail (as there is no sex or fantasy about sex) then her being without underwear should not be the determining factor.

The scene is setting to show how unprepared for sex the girl is.

 

[JKendallDane]

There are a number of well-written stories here at Lit where your plot idea is applied successfully. High school settings, first loves, etc. The "Thou shalt not" rule is not set in stone as far as no one under 18 may be a protagonist that will eventually become sexually active once that magic number has been reached. BUT...you would be walking a very thin line with Laurel. She will permit certain things but will nuke a story quickly too, if her line gets crossed.

The only way you can do it is to have NOTHING sexually explicit (thoughts or deeds) occur prior to turning "Lit legal" and keep even any lines broaching masturbation to the very most minimal of mentioned in passing terms. (ie: "Other than circle jerks at scout camp, I had never had anything close to an actual sexual experience" or "My girlfriends and I would share stuff about Jilling-off and dildos back in high school, but I was too afraid to ever touch myself down there." NO DETAILS! AT ALL!)

Don't let the "18+ ONLY" rule discourage you if you feel you can stay within what is allowed. There are some great coming-of-age stories here on the site and it actually creates a wonderful challenge to shine as a writer. Your mission, should you decide to accept it, Mr. Phelps, is to develop the curiosity and desire of the typical virgin teen, but do so in a non-sexually explicit build up over time while keeping your character totally chaste.

And don't forget...there is one rule that is above the 18+ one as far as importance. Be completely upfront with Laurel and let her know what you are planning or submitting. I've found she is very willing to publish a true coming-of-age story so long as you don't try to sneak anything through or push the envelope too far.

Good luck with your idea.

 

[asianToy]

Thank you very much, JKD, for the helpful reply. I think you've hit what I'm looking for in the coming of age comment.

 

[NotWise]

I think there are fairly specific guidelines posted on the site somewhere -- may be in a how-to, or in writers' resources. But they are just guidelines. Admin's judgement can always vary based on specifics.

My recollection is that it is acceptable for a character to recall that an earlier sexual experience occurred. It would probably not be acceptable if the earlier experience were described in any detail.

I have a story up now (not originally written for Lit) in which a female character recalls (probably in a single sentence) masturbating since she was twelve. It was mentioned in order to introduce a stuffed animal to the story. The stuffed animal then had an added significance.

 

[HandsInTheDark]

I think there are fairly specific guidelines posted on the site somewhere -- may be in a how-to, or in writers' resources. But they are just guidelines. Admin's judgement can always vary based on specifics.

My recollection is that it is acceptable for a character to recall that an earlier sexual experience occurred. It would probably not be acceptable if the earlier experience were described in any detail.
.

"I lost my virginity at 16" - fine.
"I lost my virginity at 16. And it was amazing." - risky.
"I lost my virginity at 16. He pinned me to the wall and..." - don't even go there.

I had a story bounced back because it was written in a fantasy setting and the main female was only described as being too young to marry in the local (and fantasy based) culture. At the end of the story you find out she's actually a succubus and thousands of years old. Despite the fact that she was non-human, very old, and I never described the marriage age in that culture, the story did not pass muster. Specific rules don't matter; I think Laurel goes by first impression and gut reaction.

If you want your female to be virginal or at least inexperienced, which is nearly de rigueur in reluctance stories, you really have to stretch things to describe why a hot girl is still a virgin at 18. In Captured Princess I made it a cultural rule that Princesses couldn't wed, masturbate or dally until 25; the culture was a far-future one in part because that would never fly in any historical setting.

Society in the US is starting to debate the age question more and more, driven by sexting, which is rampant in the under 18 set. In parts of Europe the question is decided and sexuality generally becomes legal at 16. I think the next ten years might see changes in US law; whether that influences Lit is another question, since writing about sex at 16 isn't illegal now. But the social rules where I live are definitely in flux.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

I cant fathom why anyone wants to play with the rule.

 

[sr71plt]

I cant fathom why anyone wants to play with the rule.

Really? It attracts readers.

 

[HandsInTheDark]

JBJ: Look up Ephebophilia.

I suspect it's fairly common. I don't quite qualify - my characters are generally early 20s. But broadly speaking I find the 16-28 range most appealing and I have a strong wtf reaction to "mature" porn.

Biologically it makes sense; get them early and often and you produce more offspring, selfish gene, etc. so I'd expect most guys to find that range most appealing.

 

[Hypoxia]

Biologically it makes sense; get them early and often and you produce more offspring, selfish gene, etc. so I'd expect most guys to find that range most appealing.

It's appealing, and historically, legal age for women has been as young as 12 or even less. Some cultures hold child marriages that aren't consummated for a decade or more. Exciting stories can be told about sexual discovery. But they can't be told on LIT because this private website has specific rules. Those rules are often pushed and skirted but they're there nonetheless. Real-world legality is irrelevant; Laurel rules here.

 

[GforGraham]

So many stories have the female be 18, look like a mature 25 yr old, screw like an oversexed 30 yr old, and act like a12 yr old. Ahh Nirvana, except for the last bit.

 

[NotWise]

It's appealing, and historically, legal age for women has been as young as 12 or even less.

I think the common age of adulthood has moved back over time because of the increasing complexity of our societies. If you call someone adult at the age of 12 (as at least some American Indians did) then they spend their youth dealing with adult responsibilities and don't have the time for the more complex learning and socialization required in advanced societies.

I don't know about the rest of latin america, but in Mexico and the adjoining parts of the US southwest, girls from traditional families celebrate their quinceaneros (15th birthday) and then are expected to soon after move out, set up a household and have kids. Their high school graduation rates and the graduation rates for the 16 and 17 year old boys who knock them up are abysmal. That limits their income possibility and also has a large-scale economic impact.

 

[MagicalErotica]

Sorry. I edited out the message because I felt like I was kinda going to hijack the thread. I'm gonna make my own. Sorry again.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

My 2nd great grandfather wrote an interesting book about life on the American Frontier where he detailed life in Illinois & Kentucky in the early 1800s. He covered almost all the relevant topics to existence. Town was 70 miles away on the Mississippi River, they went there once a year, to trade what they had for lead and gunpowder and whatever. People were almost entirely self sufficient. Especially clothing.

He talked about a young man who bought his wife a new bonnet during the trip to town. It was a scandal because no woman ever got new anything. He said the bonnet was like wearing a scarlet letter A. Only depraved whores had such things. He said the alarm seemed absurd at the time he wrote the book but back in 1820 it was serious business because no decent woman ever got anything new. Fallen women did.

 

[NotWise]

I've got a story that I'm not sure about this 18 year-old rule.

(replying to a post that was then removed) I think that might pass the rule but give you another problem.

The male protagonist in the first story I submitted to Lit was a family man and the story included his two sons both as part of his characterization and as story-telling tools. One of the boys was even naked In the first paragraph or two. I received several complaints about including children in an erotic story, even if the children were not even remotely part of an erotic scene. The story got past the admin, but it made some readers uncomfortable -- some may not have read past the first couple paragraphs.

 

[Hypoxia]

@NotWise: I included naked children in a story and had not the slightest peep.

The scene: Black's Beach (clothing optional) in San Diego. Randy and Ruth hit the beach naked and encounter Ruth's mom Deborah, her hubby Avram, and their little twins. The twins slam into "Unca Ran" (who is actually their father) and then run down the beach with roly-poly Avram in hot pursuit. Meanwhile, Ruth and Deb are standing next to sitting Randy arguing with their steaming muffs mere inches from his face.

No sex, mere tension in a public place.

 

[CeasarBoobage]

It sure makes me wonder when this question comes up every other week. Lit may be new to some people, but online forums generally aren't; running a search shouldn't be that hard, right?

OP: I'm not trying to pick on you, please don't hate me.

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For anyone still reading this thread, like most people have commented on, no sexy stuff with people under 18 years old is the rule here. Follow it or don't post your stuff. If you do post, don't complain when your story is denied or reported. Hell, it's just good sense to steer clear of it anyway. Featuring minors in a sexually-involved story may or may not be reflective of reality, but it seems to me like it's getting too close to the thin line of being a pedo. Just don't.

It may not be realistic to say the person is 17 years and 361 days old and without a sexual thought, then the day they turn 18, they turn into a slut. So what? Suspension of reality is needed for 98.538275% of the stories here, so what's one more factor to ignore for the sake of the rules?

If you're so incredibly insistent on having under-18 people involved in your stories, go somewhere else. If you have to ask if it's OK to dance around that rule twenty different ways, maybe you should revisit your plot, or go somewhere else. Some rules should be broken because they are stupid, some can be bent because it's so easy to do and nobody cares, and some are rigidly enforced. There aren't many here, but they have to be followed. No kids, no animals, and no getting off on death. It's not that difficult.

 

[lovecraft68]

I generally make my male characters 20 in mom/son or milf stories, just to shake the 'you say 18, but we know what you mean' crowd.

I'm fine with following the rule, my only issue with the rule is how lax the enforcement is in the sense authors can say 18-25 and make the character so child like its beyond obvious yet that stuff seems to fly though easily.

For me the only category where it bugs me is first time. That's a genre I enjoy, but it gets old that every single story features a hot girl or good looking young guy whose never had sex, get unrealistic after awhile so my answer is I don't try to write them. A story is not going to turn out well if I'm rolling my own eyes at it.

I did write one last year as a challenge issued by someone here with the added rule it had to be 'sweet'. It ended up winning a contest somehow.

On the other side of the coin the 18+ saves the incest and non con categories from sinking into the total cesspool sites like asstr are where you can find stories of 11 year old girls being gang raped and pre teens involved in incest. So the rule there at least keeps those two categories somewhat respectable for what they already are

 

[MiddleAgedMan]

Not that I've read all the previous threads on this, but it seems to me this is primarily a pragmatic approach by Literotica. I don't know exactly how this is done in the U.S., but anyone posting anything even remotely approaching underage-sex are at risk of being shut down where I live.

I see this as a 'better safe than sorry' approach to make sure the site stays safe, for our combined enjoyment.

[Rant]
As for the historical context of legal age increasing, why is this even an issue? It doesn't matter what was considered underage half a century ago, those are not the regulations the site has to adhere to. And as for working around the rules: It's not a victory if you manage to sneak in a sixteen-year-old girl having sex, it's a very real and looming threat to very site's existence if some do-gooder reports it to an overzealous government official.
[/Rant]