Mental vs. Physical

[KoPilot]

I always saw the brat/sam thing as something that was just meant to be fun, mostly in the context of play, or at least not in the context of a long term primary relationship. I mean, I've played with people where I've been given free reign to talk back, and we had running commentary through the whole thing and we both had a blast. But obviously I couldn't sustain that all day long with someone, and I wouldn't want to. I guess I'm just thinking the brat thing is an exaggeration or blown out of proportion as a type. Not totally unlike the whole doormat thing.

I do it as a force of habit... with everyone, really. Quips and snide remarks all around, assuming it's not totally inappropriate for the situation. My relationship with S actually kicked off with me acting sammy, I guess, and so he acted like a bastard (assertive and clever) right back. So I guess the dynamic just works for us... and we do it all the time.

I actually had to look up what a SAM was back when chy_girl first mentioned it... and apparently it's got a pretty bad rap. I can see why most PYLs wouldn't put up with it for very long, if at all, so I guess I can count myself as especially lucky to have found someone right off the bat who enjoys the game/hunt/chase/challenge as much as I do. As someone on a completely different forum said, I like being put in my place.

 

[KoPilot]

I'm very much into being weighted down. it's not breath play for me and I don't really identify it as macro/micro (though I do get off on that as well). When I was a kid I used to sleep ~under~ the mattress just to feel the weight of it. sometimes I'd get my sister to lie on top of it to add extra weight.

Man, that sounds like something I'd have done. Being at the bottom of a dogpile, or a pile of couch cushions, or being sat on... I did some weird shit as a kid, haha. I remember one of the best weighty experiences I had as a youngster was when I went to Knott's Berry Farm, and got on this ride that spun you around in circles... except that you had to share the seat with one or two other people, and the centrifugal force would crush you up against the box. Of course, being the crazy idiot that I am, I wanted to sit on the outside and have my cousin and her friend, each twice my size, sit inward from me. That was interesting. And really painful. xD

 

[where]

Man, that sounds like something I'd have done. Being at the bottom of a dogpile, or a pile of couch cushions, or being sat on... I did some weird shit as a kid, haha. I remember one of the best weighty experiences I had as a youngster was when I went to Knott's Berry Farm, and got on this ride that spun you around in circles... except that you had to share the seat with one or two other people, and the centrifugal force would crush you up against the box. Of course, being the crazy idiot that I am, I wanted to sit on the outside and have my cousin and her friend, each twice my size, sit inward from me. That was interesting. And really painful. xD

I loathe fairground rides, but that sounds pretty hot. I'm thinking about centrifugally forced cocks in cunts now....

have you ever seen the spanish comic "Light and Bold"?

That was something that I think chrystalised my obsession with really big tall men, but the other day I recalled, when as a kid, we were on holiday. My parents had kind of hooked up with this couple. she was kinda short and fat but he was a good 6'++++ and very muscular. I had spent the day on the beach being horribly teased as normal and I just walked off. I went about 3-4 miles down the coast and this guy Roger turns up. when it was noticed that I was missing he'd gone after me. I completely refused to go back with him, told him to get lost, everything. He just picked me up in a fireman's lift and carried me back. me screaming, crying, hitting and scratching (he had a very sunburned back) all the way.

I remembered this the other day and as much as I loathed him for what he represented, there was something really quite amazing about being pinned to him, helpless despite my protests. It didn't feel sexual, but thinking about it now, I'm not sure...

 

[Homburg]

I always saw the brat/sam thing as something that was just meant to be fun, mostly in the context of play, or at least not in the context of a long term primary relationship. I mean, I've played with people where I've been given free reign to talk back, and we had running commentary through the whole thing and we both had a blast. But obviously I couldn't sustain that all day long with someone, and I wouldn't want to. I guess I'm just thinking the brat thing is an exaggeration or blown out of proportion as a type. Not totally unlike the whole doormat thing.

Having been in a relationship with someone that would accurately be described as a brat, I will disagree with you that using the term as a type is somehow exaggerated.

I would go so far as to say that the primary difference between SAM and brat is that the former is short term, while the latter is a pattern of behaviour that is long term. That you have not experienced said behaviour in a long term context does not mean that it does not exist.

 

[KoPilot]

I loathe fairground rides, but that sounds pretty hot. I'm thinking about centrifugally forced cocks in cunts now....

Mmmmmm. The pressure...

have you ever seen the spanish comic "Light and Bold"?

I have not. What's it about?

I completely refused to go back with him, told him to get lost, everything. He just picked me up in a fireman's lift and carried me back. me screaming, crying, hitting and scratching (he had a very sunburned back) all the way.

I remembered this the other day and as much as I loathed him for what he represented, there was something really quite amazing about being pinned to him, helpless despite my protests. It didn't feel sexual, but thinking about it now, I'm not sure...

I've got tons of "proto"-sexual memories like that. Ones that weren't sexual at the time, but they were definitely enjoyable in a peculiar way. Interesting how experiences like that shape us and our sexual quirks?

I've got a story somewhat similar to that... I was a kid at a family pool party, swimming around in a pool packed full of people, mostly adults. I think two cousins or distant relatives or friends of the family suddenly decided to play catch, and that I would make an appropriate ball to toss back and forth. I remember thinking to myself "man, I want stuff like this more often".

 

[intothewoods]

I do it as a force of habit... with everyone, really. Quips and snide remarks all around, assuming it's not totally inappropriate for the situation. My relationship with S actually kicked off with me acting sammy, I guess, and so he acted like a bastard (assertive and clever) right back. So I guess the dynamic just works for us... and we do it all the time.

I actually had to look up what a SAM was back when chy_girl first mentioned it... and apparently it's got a pretty bad rap. I can see why most PYLs wouldn't put up with it for very long, if at all, so I guess I can count myself as especially lucky to have found someone right off the bat who enjoys the game/hunt/chase/challenge as much as I do. As someone on a completely different forum said, I like being put in my place.

I hear "smart ass" and think someone who talks back - which can be funny and entertaining. Banter. I hear "brat" and I think someone who behaves badly. Someone who spends all of the grocery money on shoes or something. The former is a personality that meshes with certain other personalities. The latter is just bad behavior. I don't think bad behavior works for most people for that long in a long term relationship.

Having been in a relationship with someone that would accurately be described as a brat, I will disagree with you that using the term as a type is somehow exaggerated.

I would go so far as to say that the primary difference between SAM and brat is that the former is short term, while the latter is a pattern of behaviour that is long term. That you have not experienced said behaviour in a long term context does not mean that it does not exist.

I don't have stats on how many subs are actually brats. The difference I see is between personality and behavior, choices. As I said above, a smart ass to me is someone who talks back a lot. Lots of people in the world are smart asses and also make perfectly mature, rational decisions in their relationships. It's just a personality type. That meshes with some but not others. To me -- and I've heard some people describe their brattiness in this way -- a brat is someone who is actually behaving badly. Someone who behaves immaturely all the time. If we're really just talking about personality and not choices (like spending all of the grocery money on shoes), then that's akin to the smart ass thing. But truly bad bratty behavior cannot sustain most long term relationships. Now, there are some people who thrive in dysfunctional, chaotic relationships, but on the whole it's not sustainable.

 

[FungiUg]

[...]But truly bad bratty behavior cannot sustain most long term relationships.[...]

I would have to agree. You still need honesty in communication, and to me bratty behaivour seems counter to that.

Er, that's not to say it can't be fun at times. But it's not enough to build a healthy relationship (at least in my experience).

 

[KoPilot]

I hear "smart ass" and think someone who talks back - which can be funny and entertaining. Banter. I hear "brat" and I think someone who behaves badly.

Yeah, that's why I refuse to identify as a "brat"... because I just don't like the connotation of the word, and the traditional definition doesn't accurately describe me in any way.

Do people actively call themselves brats, or do those people just use SAM/SAS?

Man, I think we need a change in nomenclature, here.

 

[the captians wench]

Yeah, that's why I refuse to identify as a "brat"... because I just don't like the connotation of the word, and the traditional definition doesn't accurately describe me in any way.

Do people actively call themselves brats, or do those people just use SAM/SAS?

Man, I think we need a change in nomenclature, here.

I've known people who identified as "brat". We didn't mesh well.

Most of the PYLs that I have been with have not tollerated brattiness at all. If I want pain, or anything, I am to ask for it.

Now that's not to say that I don't like being a smart ass from time to time, but it's for the laugh, not to "be punished", and usually a laugh is about all that comes from it. Maybe a playful slap on the ass, maybe some wrestling, maybe some playful teasing, but that's about it.

 

[DirtyPet]

Sorry but whats a SAM/SAS?

 

[BiBunny]

Sorry but whats a SAM/SAS?

what's 'sammy'?

Sammy:

Cutsey nickname for the Acronym "Smart Assed Masochist"(SAM), I.E. a pyl who uses bratty behavior as a means to get 'punished' by his or her PYL, rather than being direct and asking for punishment.

.....

 

[FungiUg]

...whereas "SAS" are the special air services, or is that statistical analytical software? Yup, it's true... I'm a SAD.

 

[Soumis]

I see a lot of folks here into the willing mental submission side of things, and very few into the physically overpowered side of things, if at all. I know bondage and masochistic tendencies play into this, but what I'm beginning to find out I want is to be in a 24/7 relationship that is almost entirely manifested through physical domination, and whatever that might entail. Don't know if that's even possible, though. Again, that sort of thing I can imagine would only exist in a fantasy world where S was double my size.

What are your thoughts on the two ends of the spectrum? Or do you treat them as two sides of the same coin? Do you think this sort of thing has a place here, or is it far more suited to the size-fetish school of thought? Would you consider it to be a "lesser" form of submission?

First, lesser, never.

Second, I think that this forum sees a lot more discussion on the mental, emotional, D/s side of things than on the bondage or s&m front. I find that offline there is more interest in the, "physically overpowered side of things." I think that it's possible to feel physically overpowered regardless of size. Whether by props or personality, there's a way to find the headspace.

I agree with the aforementioned SAM and brat definitions. Sammy is a state of mind, while a brat has certain ingrained behaviors.

 

[the captians wench]

First, lesser, never.

Second, I think that this forum sees a lot more discussion on the mental, emotional, D/s side of things than on the bondage or s&m front. I find that offline there is more interest in the, "physically overpowered side of things." I think that it's possible to feel physically overpowered regardless of size. Whether by props or personality, there's a way to find the headspace.

I agree with the aforementioned SAM and brat definitions. Sammy is a state of mind, while a brat has certain ingrained behaviors.

The bolded part has been very true for me.

Like I mentioned, I tend to out weigh my partners, yet they always seem to make me feel small and fragile. It's very important to me. I think maybe because I like to feel protected, and so feeling fragile makes me more protected in his arms.

 

[DirtyPet]

Thank you..I didnt know there was a term for what I was doing lol

 

[Homburg]

I don't have stats on how many subs are actually brats. The difference I see is between personality and behavior, choices. As I said above, a smart ass to me is someone who talks back a lot. Lots of people in the world are smart asses and also make perfectly mature, rational decisions in their relationships. It's just a personality type. That meshes with some but not others. To me -- and I've heard some people describe their brattiness in this way -- a brat is someone who is actually behaving badly. Someone who behaves immaturely all the time. If we're really just talking about personality and not choices (like spending all of the grocery money on shoes), then that's akin to the smart ass thing. But truly bad bratty behavior cannot sustain most long term relationships. Now, there are some people who thrive in dysfunctional, chaotic relationships, but on the whole it's not sustainable.

Disclaimer: I'm going to explain this in a less than stellar fashion.

Brat, when used to describe a subset of submissives (both by me, and in the elusive goddamned article that I can't find, but was endlessly revelatory), refers to a set of behaviours, attitudes, and personality quirks.

The big one is a desire for punishment/correction (a beating, in short), but a corresponding inability to ask for it in a functional manner. viv is perfectly comfortable with bending over and sticking her ass up if she wants a spanking. She doesn't do this often, but she can, and has. MIS will do likewise, and even ask. A brat, in this context, simply cannot.

There may be all sorts of underlying reasons, but the net effect is that the brat won't ask. But they need that correction. They need that strong hand guiding them. Feelings of insecurity, worthlessness, etc can be abated by a firm correction, but they can't ask outright, so they will act out. It is less of a matter of manipulation of topping from the bottom (a phrase I've come to despise because it is bandied about in such an asinine and accusatory fashion), and more a matter of flawed communication.

The idea being that communication of threat, or even verbal correction, has little weight in the emotional build of the brat. "Deeds, not words," is the rule in this situation. A strongly physical reminder is the communication that the brat craves.

Further, brats will often struggle, resist, and just flat not be all" lay back and suffer in dignified (and severely turned-on) silence" like the 'classic' submissive. They will fight you, they will act out more, and they can be an active pain. The reason being, is that they need that show of strength from the person they are with. They need to be reminded that this person is bigger, stronger, or simply more willful.

There can be a lot of playful fun to it, but there is just as likely to be a frenzied, dark, obsessive demand fueling the acting out.

A brat is a handful. They can be difficult as hell, and a whole lot of dominants have no desire to fuss with that much muss. But the ones that do enjoy an utterly different dynamic that, I would guess, satisfies a need. If I were to use an example, I would point to ataxia girl's descriptions of her relationship with Bigbill (I think that's his name. If not, my apologies). In many ways, I would say that 00syd probably fits it too.

What bugs me is how derogatory the label can be for many people. Yeah, brats can be annoying. So can uptight asshats that think that their way is the only way (no, I'm not saying that this sort of asshat is posting in this thread). While the brat that I was with drove me crazy at times, other time she was a joy to be with. You get the good with the bad, I guess. In the end, it didn't work out, and that was true for both of us.

I wouldn't try to take on a full-blown brat again because I realise that it is not my thing. But, that said, I understand the idea, and don't find anything wrong with it. While I wouldn't take on a brat, neither would I be likely to find a switch compatible, or a dominant, or even a submissive with a long list of limits. Compatibility is compatibility.

Fortunately, neither I, you, or anyone else here is forced to be in a relationship with a brat. And, in all honesty, I would not feel bad in speculating that many of the brats that people here have had bad experiences with were simply annoying people. The one I was with was very well behaved in public, and well liked. Sparkles, a (quietly) self-proclaimed brat that used to post here quite a bit was likewise very well behaved and a joy to be around in person. But, me being nice aside, there is something inherent to the term that attracts those that consider the appellation to be license to act out. That sort would fall into the "annoying people" mentioned above.

 

[BiBunny]

Geez, H, by that definition, I'M a brat. Not so much on the needing punishment part, but in the "are you going to do what you say you're going to do?" sense. Hmm. Must think.

 

[FungiUg]

What bugs me is how derogatory the label can be for many people. Yeah, brats can be annoying. So can uptight asshats that think that their way is the only way.

Agreed. Like you, not my thing... but my feelings are that there are doms out there that love their brats and wouldn't have them any other way. As always, it's about knowing yourself and finding the right, compatible, person.

Good description of the behaivour, by the way.

 

[Homburg]

Geez, H, by that definition, I'M a brat. Not so much on the needing punishment part, but in the "are you going to do what you say you're going to do?" sense. Hmm. Must think.

I'm not trying to pigeonhole anyone. Just pointing out a behaviour pattern. As to you, hell if I know. Hell if you know either. That said, being exposed to different ways of lookign at the same conundrum is never a bad thing.

--

Agreed. Like you, not my thing... but my feelings are that there are doms out there that love their brats and wouldn't have them any other way. As always, it's about knowing yourself and finding the right, compatible, person.

Good description of the behaivour, by the way.

Oh, absolutely. I think that is the core lesson to learn here. It may not be your thing or mine, but it is obviously somebody's thing. And we would do better to help those sort of folks get together, because, well, because it's the right thing to do. And it might cut down on random bratting at munches and events...

 

[KoPilot]

Disclaimer: I'm going to explain this in a less than stellar fashion.

Brat, when used to describe a subset of submissives (both by me, and in the elusive goddamned article that I can't find, but was endlessly revelatory), refers to a set of behaviours, attitudes, and personality quirks.

The big one is a desire for punishment/correction (a beating, in short), but a corresponding inability to ask for it in a functional manner. viv is perfectly comfortable with bending over and sticking her ass up if she wants a spanking. She doesn't do this often, but she can, and has. MIS will do likewise, and even ask. A brat, in this context, simply cannot.

There may be all sorts of underlying reasons, but the net effect is that the brat won't ask. But they need that correction. They need that strong hand guiding them. Feelings of insecurity, worthlessness, etc can be abated by a firm correction, but they can't ask outright, so they will act out. It is less of a matter of manipulation of topping from the bottom (a phrase I've come to despise because it is bandied about in such an asinine and accusatory fashion), and more a matter of flawed communication.

The idea being that communication of threat, or even verbal correction, has little weight in the emotional build of the brat. "Deeds, not words," is the rule in this situation. A strongly physical reminder is the communication that the brat craves.

Further, brats will often struggle, resist, and just flat not be all" lay back and suffer in dignified (and severely turned-on) silence" like the 'classic' submissive. They will fight you, they will act out more, and they can be an active pain. The reason being, is that they need that show of strength from the person they are with. They need to be reminded that this person is bigger, stronger, or simply more willful.

There can be a lot of playful fun to it, but there is just as likely to be a frenzied, dark, obsessive demand fueling the acting out.

A brat is a handful. They can be difficult as hell, and a whole lot of dominants have no desire to fuss with that much muss. But the ones that do enjoy an utterly different dynamic that, I would guess, satisfies a need. If I were to use an example, I would point to ataxia girl's descriptions of her relationship with Bigbill (I think that's his name. If not, my apologies). In many ways, I would say that 00syd probably fits it too.

What bugs me is how derogatory the label can be for many people. Yeah, brats can be annoying. So can uptight asshats that think that their way is the only way (no, I'm not saying that this sort of asshat is posting in this thread). While the brat that I was with drove me crazy at times, other time she was a joy to be with. You get the good with the bad, I guess. In the end, it didn't work out, and that was true for both of us.

I wouldn't try to take on a full-blown brat again because I realise that it is not my thing. But, that said, I understand the idea, and don't find anything wrong with it. While I wouldn't take on a brat, neither would I be likely to find a switch compatible, or a dominant, or even a submissive with a long list of limits. Compatibility is compatibility.

Fortunately, neither I, you, or anyone else here is forced to be in a relationship with a brat. And, in all honesty, I would not feel bad in speculating that many of the brats that people here have had bad experiences with were simply annoying people. The one I was with was very well behaved in public, and well liked. Sparkles, a (quietly) self-proclaimed brat that used to post here quite a bit was likewise very well behaved and a joy to be around in person. But, me being nice aside, there is something inherent to the term that attracts those that consider the appellation to be license to act out. That sort would fall into the "annoying people" mentioned above.

I think that's a good explanation.

I know that for me, sometimes I can ask, but sometimes I can't. It's difficult, though, because I'm still guiding S down the bdsm rabbit hole to an extent, so I HAVE to outright tell him sometimes. The funny thing is, though, is that he responds to my "brat" behavior the best! If he spanks me and I go "pfft, the hell was that" he'll go back and hit me hard... almost too hard, and often repeatedly for a few seconds. I can tell that he gets a serious kick out of the one-upsmanship, and even though it hurts like a motherfucker, I get a serious kick out of it too.

Part of the reason it's difficult for me to ask is that I have this really pesky sense of pride and ego that just does NOT allow me to do some things, even if I want to. So being embarrassed by him, or put in my place, or "losing the game" just feels good. And every time one of those things happen without me having to flat out ask (sometimes he'll make me ask for a bit of that humiliation factor), I secretly thank him with everything I got.

 

[where]

Mmmmmm. The pressure...



I have not. What's it about?



I've got tons of "proto"-sexual memories like that. Ones that weren't sexual at the time, but they were definitely enjoyable in a peculiar way. Interesting how experiences like that shape us and our sexual quirks?

I've got a story somewhat similar to that... I was a kid at a family pool party, swimming around in a pool packed full of people, mostly adults. I think two cousins or distant relatives or friends of the family suddenly decided to play catch, and that I would make an appropriate ball to toss back and forth. I remember thinking to myself "man, I want stuff like this more often".

Light y Bold is basically about a chick (tiny of porno proportions) whi feels no pain (cue lots of bdsm style tortoure) who meets bold who is like nikoli valuev. tall huge sexy (to me) match made in heaven in the end. I'm abit inebriated so can't expand right now. will later if interested xxxx

 

[satindesire]

Light y Bold is basically about a chick (tiny of porno proportions) whi feels no pain (cue lots of bdsm style tortoure) who meets bold who is like nikoli valuev. tall huge sexy (to me) match made in heaven in the end. I'm abit inebriated so can't expand right now. will later if interested xxxx

Drunk posting=Bad Ky.

 

[FungiUg]

[...]we would do better to help those sort of folks get together, because, well, because it's the right thing to do. And it might cut down on random bratting at munches and events...

Ahahaha! You mean it would cut down on our perfectly well behaved innocent subbies being shown how to be brats and learning by example?

If wishes were fishes...

 

[VelvetSin]

I think that it's possible to feel physically overpowered regardless of size.

How much of the height/strength thing is the real need to ask for things? Barefoot, B is six inches taller and if I'm going to get anything like a kiss he has to permit it. With his shoes on, there's no way I could just steal one. I thought of this thread this morning (well on the drive to work) when he was dressed and ready to head out the door long before I was but wouldn't give me the “have a good day” kiss until I asked exactly how he wanted. It was a fun, playful way to start the day!

That feeling of being towered over can be done through force of personality also even if it's technically possible to steal that kiss, but how much of that feeling comes from the game of needing permission because there's physically no other way it would happen? It sort of ties the mental in with the physical (in my mind at least).

 

[KoPilot]

Barefoot, B is six inches taller and if I'm going to get anything like a kiss he has to permit it. With his shoes on, there's no way I could just steal one. I thought of this thread this morning (well on the drive to work) when he was dressed and ready to head out the door long before I was but wouldn't give me the “have a good day” kiss until I asked exactly how he wanted. It was a fun, playful way to start the day!

Hot.

That feeling of being towered over can be done through force of personality also even if it's technically possible to steal that kiss, but how much of that feeling comes from the game of needing permission because there's physically no other way it would happen? It sort of ties the mental in with the physical (in my mind at least).

I know S does a very good job of seeming much taller than he is, and I am ETERNALLY grateful that he is able to exude that from every pore. Especially since I might be an inch taller than him.

Your thought on the needing permission both rings true, and has got me thinking. In my fantasy-dream-land of macro/micro interactions, the idea of demanding something from a much larger partner and having them carry out your wish at their ultimate discretion is another fantasy of mine. I've actually recently thought about how I could probably feel comfortable "dominating" such a person, because there'd still be the thrill of them truly being in control of the situation, no matter how many orders I barked, how well I attempted to restrain them. Perhaps that fantasy is just an even more complicated manifestation of my inherently "bratty" behavior, I wonder?

But yes, actual and physical limitations like that I find to be supersexy. Slight tangent: Have you or anyone else reading this known someone who's gotten off on being penetrated by an enormous cock? I only hear how inconvenient they actually are because it makes sex really uncomfortable, and I never hear about masos getting off on that kind of pain.