Mental health and gun control

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

The fact that you are a mental health nurse? explains a lot. Most of you guys (not pyschologists, psychiatrists) want to be prison guards and failed so now you enjoy lording your authority over people who don't have an option to resist. i can see how this would appeal to you.

Not a nurse, Dear. But lotsa guys come in the hospital and wanna shove the nurses around. So you gotta put them on the carpet and tie them up. I managed emergency services; that is, when the cops brought people in I screened them for transfer to detox, the medical hospital, the veterans hospital, our psychiatric wards, or released them after assessment. I also controlled the restraints and seclusion rooms.

I pretty much mind my own knitting till someone dumps dog turds on my feet.

 

[Weird Harold]

Harold, Prime Minister Howard was not an anti- gun fanatic... ever. ...

He does a credible long-term impersonation of one if he is not:

In one interview on Sydney radio station 2GB he said "we will find any means we can to further restrict them because I hate guns... ordinary citizens should not have weapons. We do not want the American disease imported into Australia".[54] John Howard had earlier expressed a desire to introduce restrictive gun laws when he was Opposition Leader during a 1995 interview with Australian political journalist Laurie Oakes ([4]). In a television interview shortly before the tenth anniversary of the Port Arthur massacre, he reaffirmed his stance: "I did not want Australia to go down the American path. There are some things about America I admire and there are some things I don't. And one of the things I don't admire about America is their... slavish love of guns. They're evil".[55] During the same television interview, Prime Minister Howard also stated that he saw the outpouring of grief in the aftermath of the Port Arthur massacre as "an opportunity to grab the moment and think about a fundamental change to gun laws in this country".

 

[Zeb_Carter]

This is the...what?...tenth thread on this board alone, about gun control. The fact is clear. The same people whine about the people who own or advocate the private ownership of guns. It's a never ending whine to boot.

And some of the biggest whiners are those who don't even live in the US. Go figure. The SCOTUS has struck down several local municipalities gun control laws just last year as unconstitutional and told them to go back to the drawing board.

There is an adage that goes something like this...when it's criminal to own a gun, then only criminals will.

Personally, I don't see a problem with a law abiding citizen owning and carrying a gun.

It's the criminal with a gun I worry about, as there is no compunction for them not to use it, to get what they want.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Let us put these things in an historical perspective, an anti-gun historical perspective. During the entire XIX Century, Britain had a very relaxed attitude towards the private ownership of firearms. During that time the larger game animals in the isles were much reduced in numbers and by the turn of the XX Century there was very little left to hunt with anything but a shotgun. Keep this in mind.

During the first World War, millions of British commoners who had never handled a firearm before in their lives were trained to use rifles, very good Enfield rifles, long considered the finest combat bolt action ever built. When they were mustered out of service, the Bolshevik coup d'etat was a very recent memory and it only happened because the Russian Army rebelled on the side of the Communists. This terrified the British gentry, the ruling classes, and they saw their own veterans as a potential seditious army. So the first British gun laws were passed to make it very difficult for the common man to own a rifle or pistol. Shotguns were the arm of choice for the rural gentry so their ownership was simpler, much simpler.

So what is the origin of gun control? The fear of the ruling class for their ability to stay in control. Not a Communist conspiracy, not some Tri-lateral Commission or UN plot, just the irrational fear of the ruled by the rulers.

Nothing has changed. In the United States, gun control is a product of big cities and the Atlanto-centric Northeast. The former fear their own citizens and the latter still regret having seceded from the Crown. Why does PM Howard hate guns? He's slavishly imitating the British model because he thinks being Australian is inferior to being British! Don't believe it? Ask Dame Edna Everage! Barrie Humphries jaundiced view of his country's upper class is spot on.

 

[jomar]

...

So what is the origin of gun control? The fear of the ruling class for their ability to stay in control. Not a Communist conspiracy, not some Tri-lateral Commission or UN plot, just the irrational fear of the ruled by the rulers.

Nothing has changed. In the United States, gun control is a product of big cities and the Atlanto-centric Northeast. The former fear their own citizens and the latter still regret having seceded from the Crown.

...

Bear, I was following along until that last para...

Please clarify, thank you.

 

[R. Richard]

For those who think that better mental health services could prevent violence, here's an item from England. England has free medical services.

Docs freed ‘maniac who killed Kasey

A man held after a 15-year-old boy was stabbed to death outside a school was yesterday revealed to be a mental patient freed into the community.
Fellow pupils of victim Kasey Gordon claimed Serif Arslan, 33, had been spotted hanging around the school gates on many other occasions.

Last night horrified residents living nearby told how he was a constant "nuisance". One raged: "If he was that safe, why was he apparently carrying a knife?

"The people looking after him have got the blood of this young boy on their hands."

Kasey fell dying after he and three chums were said to have confronted Arslan for hassling a girl classmate.

Air ambulance paramedics battled in vain to save Kasey - described by head Alex Atherton yesterday as "a highly talented and popular student who had a bright future".

Kasey's pals - at least one of whom was also stabbed - were taken to hospital.

Long-haired Arslan, who is of Turkish origin, was said to have been stained with blood when he was arrested in a cafe minutes after the horror as children left school.

Pupils and teachers formed a cordon outside the eaterie to prevent him leaving.

David Vanlangenaeker, 18, an ex-pupil at Park View Academy in Tottenham, North London, said: "He's always chasing girls around and trying to chat to them."

Arslan was under the care of doctors from the Enfield and Barnet Mental Health Trust.

He had been sectioned but was living at a hostel after being released back into the community.

Pupils were in tears yesterday. Head Mr Atherton said: "The whole school community is in shock."

Kasey's loving sister Dionne yesterday was among those who laid flowers at the cordoned-off spot where he died.

A note read: "To my bro, Kasey. You didn't have time to grow into a man."

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Bear, I was following along until that last para...

Please clarify, thank you.

The only region in the U.S. where gun control still has any following is in the Bos-Wash corridor. Check out what happens every time a British Royal comes for a visit. All the movers and shakers in the region fight for a chance to get close. They haven't gotten over fascination with royalty. Personally, I don't understand. I mean it was Boston that was in the forefront of the Revolution but now . . . ?

I swear, given a chance they would vote to withdraw the Declaration of Independence. Perhaps they figure that they belong in that gentry that introduced the concept of gun control in the first place.

And California? Now it's in the hands of the Loony Left of the Democratic Party because that's who can win the Dem primaries. Now that we're about to be redistricted to kill all those safe seats things may change.

I figure the limousine liberal branch of the party is terrified of black and latino gang violence, even though crime in America is same-on-same. Show me a black crook and I'll show you his black victims. Show me a white victim and 90% of the time I'll show you his white criminal. That doesn't matter to the editorialists and city councils. They actually think that somehow or other violent crime will seep into white neighborhoods unless they take away everyone's guns. Like the guns cause violence!

Violent crime in white neighborhoods in the U.S. is about as common as it is in Canada . . .

 

[1sickbastard]

Notice how everyone gets all up in arms (yes, pun intended) about gun control, but no body gets all freaky about a truly dangerous weapon-the automobile.

Fact-More people die in the US from car deaths than gun deaths
Fact-there's no waiting period to buying or owning a car, even the criminally disturbed and those of proven violent historys can get a car.
Fact-The majority of gun-related deaths each year are self-inflicted, i.e. suicides.
Fact-the majority of auto-related deaths are homocides (manslaughter is still homocide)

Let's work on resticting cars first-they really are the bigger threat to society.

 

[jomar]

Appreciate that, but still unclear. Are you saying that the US gov't, mostly Dems I suppose, promote gun control for fear of their safety, but mostly out of fear of an uprising in which they would lose control?

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Appreciate that, but still unclear. Are you saying that the US gov't, mostly Dems I suppose, promote gun control for fear of their safety, but mostly out of fear of an uprising in which they would lose control?

I honestly believe that big city urban democrats, not the blue dogs or the rural or the southerners, equate violent crime with the loss of control that is just about the same as rebellion. And they've got a point. Areas of large cities that are more controlled by gangs than they are by the police are out of control and the gangs that control them are a de facto shadow government. But why the pols think that by making it hard for law-abiding citizens to obtain guns peace will come to the ghetto I cannot fathom. Perhaps there is an idea that the police really can keep everyone safe. Fat chance of that.

 

[jomar]

I honestly believe that big city urban democrats, not the blue dogs or the rural or the southerners, equate violent crime with the loss of control that is just about the same as rebellion. And they've got a point. Areas of large cities that are more controlled by gangs than they are by the police are out of control and the gangs that control them are a de facto shadow government. But why the pols think that by making it hard for law-abiding citizens to obtain guns peace will come to the ghetto I cannot fathom. Perhaps there is an idea that the police really can keep everyone safe. Fat chance of that.

I respect your belief...however, gang against gang is not rebellion against govt, but localized gang against gang violence.

I'm not informed about gangs taking over and becoming de facto shadow govts. Have to look into that...any references?

Ghettos...I imagine pimps, dealers, crack whores, hookers with a heart of gold, baby mommas and grandmas raising babies shooting it out...would that result in a net victory for the good guys?

I'm honestly on the fence and am curious. Shooting is kind of fun and I own a couple of rifles. But I find the nations gun fascination fascinating.

 

[sr71plt]

Oh, hogwash. The only political leaders of either party in the States who believe in an eminent uprising or mass-based conspiracy theory are wearing aluminum hats and thumbing their lips with their thumbs.

The concern for easy public access to guns--and particularly semiautomatic guns--stems from innocent people being offed in the streets--by gangs and other crazies--to an alarming degree in the States.

There's no fear of an uprising at all among anyone with a brain. It's all a rationale view of "what's wrong with this picture?"

and, 1sickbastard, I don't know what they're doing in your neighborhood, city, state, and nation, but in mine there's a great concern about car crash statistics. This isn't an either/or proposition.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Oh, hogwash. The only political leaders of either party in the States who believe in an eminent uprising or mass-based conspiracy theory are wearing aluminum hats and thumbing their lips with their thumbs.

The concern for easy public access to guns--and particularly semiautomatic guns--stems from innocent people being offed in the streets--by gangs and other crazies--to an alarming degree in the States.

There's no fear of an uprising at all among anyone with a brain. It's all a rationale view of "what's wrong with this picture?"

and, 1sickbastard, I don't know what they're doing in your neighborhood, city, state, and nation, but in mine there's a great concern about car crash statistics. This isn't an either/or proposition.

Check your stats. The majority of gun victims, (and I mean only the majority, not all) already have criminal records. Check the FBI stats, especially. The problem of letting the bangers kill each other off is that they are such lousy shots that innocent people get hit in the crossfire or are shot mistakenly. Now when I say de facto shadow government, I mean that witnesses are so intimidated by these assholes that they won't testify in court, won't report criminal activity outside their houses or in the house next door. That's not rule? Pull the other one, it's got bells.

 

[sr71plt]

Check your stats. The majority of gun victims, (and I mean only the majority, not all) already have criminal records. Check the FBI stats, especially. The problem of letting the bangers kill each other off is that they are such lousy shots that innocent people get hit in the crossfire or are shot mistakenly. Now when I say de facto shadow government, I mean that witnesses are so intimidated by these assholes that they won't testify in court, won't report criminal activity outside their houses or in the house next door. That's not rule? Pull the other one, it's got bells.

Unfortunately, what I think is that this forum has more than twice its share of loonie tunes posters.

What's moving the death stats up on gunfire is the increase in the gang cultures coming into the country from the south matched with truly loony American attitudes toward easy access to private ownership of semiautomatic guns. It has nothing to do with a "shadow government" or political conspiracies. Get a grip.

 

[jomar]

Bear, you haven't addressed my question, got lost in the mist - you seem to assert that the US gun control movement is due to govt fear of losing power/control. Any sources?

 

[1sickbastard]

and, 1sickbastard, I don't know what they're doing in your neighborhood, city, state, and nation, but in mine there's a great concern about car crash statistics. This isn't an either/or proposition.

Other than standard DWI & seatbelt enforcement, nothing.
The point I was making, or at least I though I was making, was that between guns and cars, cars do far more damage to far more people, but there's no national debate on whether people should be allowed to own a car.

Even if that yahoo in Tucson had driven a Ford F150 through that crowd and killed more people, there still wouldn't be a national debate on the subject.

Yet guns and cars are both inanimate objects, tools in the hand of the wielder. It's the hypocrisy of the debate that galls me.

 

[jomar]

Other than standard DWI & seatbelt enforcement, nothing.
The point I was making, or at least I though I was making, was that between guns and cars, cars do far more damage to far more people, but there's no national debate on whether people should be allowed to own a car.

Even if that yahoo in Tucson had driven a Ford F150 through that crowd and killed more people, there still wouldn't be a national debate on the subject.

Yet guns and cars are both inanimate objects, tools in the hand of the wielder. It's the hypocrisy of the debate that galls me.

I think you might actually be serious.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Bear, you haven't addressed my question, got lost in the mist - you seem to assert that the US gun control movement is due to govt fear of losing power/control. Any sources?

No, no, no. There is no U.S. Government fear of guns. The NRA has won that debate. It's over. The only thing the U.S. government fears is loosing elections. The Gore debacle proved that. Billery thought that gun control was a good horse for Al to ride and it turned out to be a disaster. The US gun control movement is centered in upscale neighborhoods in big urban areas. Go ask them what their honest fears are. The chances of being murdered in the US (unless one is a young urban black male, unfortunately) is in the order of a million to one. As 1sickbastard keeps pointing out, you're far more likely to die in a traffic accident.

And as for those drug gangs in Mexico, may I point out that Mexico has some of the strictest gun laws in the world? And please don't anyone start quoting Hillery on how the evil drug lords are buying their guns from American stores. Those guys have billions. They're in the same gun market as FARC, Al Qaeda, the Provisional IRA and such ilk. When they want guns, they fly them in in private jets by the case. Just think about the numbers involved. And no, you can't buy RGP's in American gun shops so where are they coming from?

 

[sr71plt]

Other than standard DWI & seatbelt enforcement, nothing.
The point I was making, or at least I though I was making, was that between guns and cars, cars do far more damage to far more people, but there's no national debate on whether people should be allowed to own a car.

Even if that yahoo in Tucson had driven a Ford F150 through that crowd and killed more people, there still wouldn't be a national debate on the subject.

Yet guns and cars are both inanimate objects, tools in the hand of the wielder. It's the hypocrisy of the debate that galls me.

Well, again, all I gotta say is that you live somewhere much remote from where I live. We've had major safe driving campaigns going on the East Coast for decades.

There are, in fact, national debates on who can drive a car and under what conditions--and what to do with repeat offenders. Owning a car isn't really what's relevant.

 

[sr71plt]

And as for those drug gangs in Mexico, may I point out that Mexico has some of the strictest gun laws in the world? And please don't anyone start quoting Hillery on how the evil drug lords are buying their guns from American stores. Those guys have billions. They're in the same gun market as FARC, Al Qaeda, the Provisional IRA and such ilk. When they want guns, they fly them in in private jets by the case. Just think about the numbers involved. And no, you can't buy RGP's in American gun shops so where are they coming from?

Who's talking about the gangs in Mexico here? The gangs that are relevant are the Hispanic gangs (adding to the black gangs before them--and white vigilantes before them) increasingly boldly operating in the STATES.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Exactly, it isn't the owning, it's the misuse. The same applies to guns. Now it is already illegal for any convicted felon to possess a firearm. Notice how effective that has been. Also notice how many uninsured drivers are involved in auto accidents and they aren't supposed to be on the road. Doesn't seem to be very effective, either. What we need to do is make people illegal, that will solve everything.

 

[amicus]

It is entirely possible that one sick bastard has never owned an automobile or driven in across country in traffic.

From San Diego to a hundred miles North and East of Los Angeles, there are areas of ten or twelve lanes of bumper to bumper traffic, the fast lanes moving at a steady 80 miles an hour, about 130 kph for the retards; and you know what? They do so almost without a single accident. Young people, old people, heavy truckers and City Delivery trucks, all those 'stupid, ignorant' Americans with the guaranteed right to travel, exercising their freedoms in a rational manner...

Restrict, restrict, control, manage, manipulate, VM has it right, the rotteness in America is in the Beltway and the inner city Mafia, be it Irish, Italian, Black or Hispanic. Just like in Watts, entire areas of Los Angeles and many metro areas heavily populated by minorities, are seldom visited by law enforcement unless the inhabitants are stupid enough to set themselves on fire.

And those ghetto's were created by....? Yup, you got it, affirmative action programs, welfare programs, 'free lunches' paid for by working Americans apparently so the problem groups could be confined to specific areas as they cannot be managed in any other fashion.

One sick bastard indeed, one does not expect you to comprehend the right to bear arms or the right to unrestricted travel, but expect to be reminded of your ignorance whenever you spout it.

Amicus

 

[1sickbastard]

I think you might actually be serious.

I'm just making an observation.
Maybe I am being serious, maybe I'm seeing how absurd the whole thing is, trying to give it some perspective.

 

[sr71plt]

Exactly, it isn't the owning, it's the misuse. The same applies to guns. Now it is already illegal for any convicted felon to possess a firearm. Notice how effective that has been. Also notice how many uninsured drivers are involved in auto accidents and they aren't supposed to be on the road. Doesn't seem to be very effective, either. What we need to do is make people illegal, that will solve everything.

I guess exaggerating anything to ridiculous lengths is as good a technique as any to see that nothing is done to deprive you of your toys. Most certainly the public good doesn't hold a candle to your personal privileges. It's the American way.

 

[1sickbastard]

It is entirely possible that one sick bastard has never owned an automobile or driven in across country in traffic.

From San Diego to a hundred miles North and East of Los Angeles, there are areas of ten or twelve lanes of bumper to bumper traffic, the fast lanes moving at a steady 80 miles an hour, about 130 kph for the retards; and you know what? They do so almost without a single accident. Young people, old people, heavy truckers and City Delivery trucks, all those 'stupid, ignorant' Americans with the guaranteed right to travel, exercising their freedoms in a rational manner...

Restrict, restrict, control, manage, manipulate, VM has it right, the rotteness in America is in the Beltway and the inner city Mafia, be it Irish, Italian, Black or Hispanic. Just like in Watts, entire areas of Los Angeles and many metro areas heavily populated by minorities, are seldom visited by law enforcement unless the inhabitants are stupid enough to set themselves on fire.

And those ghetto's were created by....? Yup, you got it, affirmative action programs, welfare programs, 'free lunches' paid for by working Americans apparently so the problem groups could be confined to specific areas as they cannot be managed in any other fashion.

One sick bastard indeed, one does not expect you to comprehend the right to bear arms or the right to unrestricted travel, but expect to be reminded of your ignorance whenever you spout it.

Amicus

Way to miss the point!
And I'll thank you NOT to put words in my mouth.