Made or Born

[dr_mabeuse]

It's a heresy in America today to imply that any sort of talent is innate, or that you can't become whatever you want if you only apply yourself and work hard. That is, of course, nonsense.

Most of the good writers I know of have been writing since they were kids, and have shown talent for as long. I wonder then, is it even possible to learn to be a good writer, or are writers just born that way?

I know what you're going to say: writing is a talent that can be perfected through training. But I wonder if that's even true. CAn anyone on this site point to examples of their own or anyone else's writing that shows improvement over time through practice and conscious effort? I'd like to see a 'before and after' example.

---dr.M.

 

[KillerMuffin]

Yep.

Crap:

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=562

Improved:

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=10593

Much better:

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=30049

Current:

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=63647 (

2000, early 2001, late 2001, a month ago, respectively

 

[English Lady]

hmm well I think my writing skills are a God given talent, he may only have given me a moderate measure but I am pretty sure the essence of my writing ability is "natural" I obviously have improved with age, learnt how to spell,I even have a sort of handle on grammar now too but that is all just head knowledge. You have to have the soul of a writer to be able to write well.


Well thats my view anyway...

 

[PaulX35]

Dr.

Interesting thread, once again. Allow me a few thoughts.
First of all, you have to enjoy writing, but not all who enjoy it are talented; we see many examples of that every day, and not only on this board.

The essence of the talent might be in being capable of looking at things in an original way; not unlike film directors, maybe.
The following process of adequately putting that down on paper is the part where a lot of technique steps in. It's also the part where hard work can get you a lot better results. The result of this reasoning would be that every hard working guy or girl would be able to make it to a decent writer.
The special extra bit that makes the difference between decent and good or even great is however a talent-thing, I think, and something you may never learn if you don't have a few seeds of it planted in your mind somewhere.

Paul, uncertain of his own talent

 

[Weird Harold]

Most of the good writers I know of have been writing since they were kids, and have shown talent for as long. I wonder then, is it even possible to learn to be a good writer, or are writers just born that way?

There are tricks and techniques that can be learned to improve your writing. Communicating in print is a skill which can be learned.

Story-telling, on the other hand, is a talent that can only be nurtured, not taught. If you don't possess the spark of talent for story telling, you'll never be more than a hack writer, no matter how many tricks and techniques you learn. Just as some people will never learn to tell a joke, some people will never learn to tell a story in an interesting way. They may learn all of the technical details of communicting in print and become competent technical writers, but they will never become writers -- just competent clerks.

KM gave you some good examples of before and after, but the improvement is primarily in the technical details of the presentation and NOT in the stories.

 

[christo]

I play volleyball in a couple of leagues. When I started I was OK. Now, two years later, I'm much, much better. My serve is lethal, my passes precise, my setting subtle, my spikes thunderbolts from the Gods.

I got better because I played a lot. You'll get better at most things if you do it enough. When I started posting at Lit two years ago my stories were, ehhh. They're much better now because I've written a bunch and I've learned from doing the work. I've read countless books about writing, and some of them actually helped, but the best way to learn how to write is to actually sit down and get working.

However, I think there's a certain amount of native talent that everyone has, and it's virtually impossible to become a master without some God-given ability. I'm a better volleyball player, but you aren't going to see me in the Olympics any time soon. I'm a better writer, but I don't think I'll ever be in the same league as someone like Michael Chabon. God, in his infinite wisdom, doles out talent in uneven portions. All you can do is make as good a meal as you can out of what got slopped on your plate.

And, as you can tell from that last line, I have a lot left to learn about writing.

 

[kristydoll]

Re: Re: Made or Born

There are tricks and techniques that can be learned to improve your writing. Communicating in print is a skill which can be learned.

Story-telling, on the other hand, is a talent that can only be nurtured, not taught. If you don't possess the spark of talent for story telling, you'll never be more than a hack writer, no matter how many tricks and techniques you learn. Just as some people will never learn to tell a joke, some people will never learn to tell a story in an interesting way. They may learn all of the technical details of communicting in print and become competent technical writers, but they will never become writers -- just competent clerks.

I agree with Weird Harold totally - gotta love this guy!

kristy

 

[deliciously_naughty]

I think that you can become technically a strong writer, but to breathe life into a story is a gift, just as athletic grace or talent is.

 

[Sabledrake]

I think creativity is something that's innate, and it may lean toward a certain form of art. But developing each individual skill is something that has to be learned.

I've known people who desperately want to write and have good skills, but lack a certain je ne sais quois that leaves their stories technically correct but without any sort of real spark. And vice versa.

Both are needed to make something really special, IMO.

Sabledrake

 

[jfinn]

You know, I used to think that everybody could write at least a decent story if they worked at it, but I've come to the conclusion that I was wrong. Like those folks who are tone deaf musically there really are people out there who are word deaf and you could try and teach them until the end of time and they still couldn't write a simple declarative sentence and even worse their ability to relate a story is totally missing.

I think there is such a thing as innate talent and what you're born with, is what you get. That doesn't mean you can't perfect it and make it the best you can do, but there is a limit and unless you want to drive yourself crazy you have to accept that. I'm never going to be F. Scott Fitzgerald and although my disapointment was acute when I realized this, I got over it somehow and went on.

I'm a better craftsman than I used to be and hopefully I'll continue with that trend, but when I look back over things I wrote twenty years ago, I can see that my basic storytelling skills were the same then as it is now. The only difference is I've learned to present in a smoother, more professional package.

Jayne

 

[PaulX35]

French Correction

I've known people who desperately want to write and have good skills, but lack a certain je ne sais quois that leaves their stories technically correct but without any sort of real spark. And vice versa.

Both are needed to make something really special, IMO.

Sabledrake,

While agreeing with you, I couldn't resist correcting the often found error in this French expression, a je ne sais quoi, so without the "s".

Excusez-moi

Paul

 

[ronde]

I believe each of us is born with at least one special ability. This ability is a passion that will not suffer lack of use. Each of us can identify this ability if we are honest with ourselves.

The skills to effectively use this ability are merely fine-tuning an already exceptional instrument. No person can become a great author without the ability to see the world as few can and without having the imagination to relate this vision to others.

People study to become good writers every day. Most of them become at least acceptable writers, but they're not great authors. Writing "skill" encompasses only the mechanics of relating the vision, not the ability to see and dream of what might be.

Since KM volunteered her stories, I feel free to comment on her own evaluation. Yes, her technical skill may have improved, but the visions and emotions she conveys are there in all four. She didn't learn that in a creative writing class.

 

[Quiet_Cool]

Quick answer

Creativity is innate to a point, but the actual craft of writing is always a learned skill, as when we're all born, none of us can read or write even storelists. Yes, there's a difference between the technical skill of writing and the development of story, but either can be learned by a good student of the craft.

 

[Star of Penumbra]

There's a big difference between skill and talent. I have the former; my writing was just as bad as any other beginning writer's when I first started.

Talent only goes so far. Sooner or later, even the most talented person has to learn some skill.

 

[Un-registered]

Talent only goes so far. Sooner or later, even the most talented person has to learn some skill.

The perfect example of this was Bob Beaman. For those who don't know, he was a very talented long jumper who had had little technical training, yet made the US Olympic team (back in the days when athletes were amateurs). During the Olympic final another competitor showed him how to measure out a run up and he tried it. He put about three percent on to the world record that afternoon. Talented but when skill was added ...

 

[Sabledrake]

Paul > thanks for the correction. I took a French class too long ago to think about. Preferred German

Sabledrake

 

[PaulX35]

Talent, skill and luck

The perfect example of this was Bob Beaman. For those who don't know, he was a very talented long jumper who had had little technical training, yet made the US Olympic team (back in the days when athletes were amateurs). During the Olympic final another competitor showed him how to measure out a run up and he tried it. He put about three percent on to the world record that afternoon. Talented but when skill was added ...

Un-registered,

The terribly talented Carl Lewis --I hated the guy, but that is not the point here-- spent most of his athletic career trying to break Beamon's 8 meters 90 record, and despite all his talent, he had to watch someone else do it: Mike Powel in 1991.

For me, that shows you also need a wee bit of luck: to get everything right and have talent and skill be pushed that bit further into perfection. Next to talented, Beamon was also pretty lucky that day in 1968, as was Powel in 1991. Lewis was never.

So, some are lucky, some ain't, but I don't think it makes an argument. Skill eventually does it, provided you possess the talent. But you never can be sure how far it will fly you

Paul
(personal long-jump record under 5 meters

 

[Diane Marie]

Made or Born....both

Originally posted by dr_mabeuse
Most of the good writers I know of have been writing since they were kids, and have shown talent for as long. I wonder then, is it even possible to learn to be a good writer, or are writers just born that way?

I tend to agree with the first part of your statement. Most artist, including artist of creative writing, have started at a very young age. On the other hand there are exceptions, just read the jackets of today’s novels, you’ll find many writers came to the craft later in life.

As to the second part, your question. Talent is important, in my opinion essential, but talent alone is never enough. I do not claim to be a skilled writer, I have not given it the study or practice required to be so. I do believe I have some god given talent to be able to tell a story. I am not overly proud of that talent, I did nothing to deserve it, just a fluke of my genes. In a way I should be ashamed that I have not put in the work required to prefect this craft.

On the other hand I am very proud of my talent as a painter. Not because of that talent but because of the many hours of study and practice I’ve devoted to developing this gift. In my case I did start young, my mother, bless her soul, praised and encouraged my talent. Whereas the woman I would give the most credit for the perfection of my style, along with my sense and use of colors, did not start painting until the death of her husband and child in her late thirties. Not only did she become an accomplished artist, she also became a talented teacher, a rare gift in my opinion.

Originally posted by dr_mabeuse
I know what you're going to say: writing is a talent that can be perfected through training. But I wonder if that's even true. CAn anyone on this site point to examples of their own or anyone else's writing that shows improvement over time through practice and conscious effort? I'd like to see a 'before and after' example.

Do you really believe any artist, in any venue, comes from the womb perfected. All art requires study and practice, talent is never enough. In the case of writing, it doesn’t matter if your an average Jane, or a Fitzgerald, with each story improvement comes.

 

[TheEarl]

You can't make a bad author into a good author and you can't make a good author into a great one. What you can do is make an average author into a good one.

Steven King - On Writing

I agree with this. You've got to have the tools there in the first place. I will never be an international rugby player, because I'm not naturally good enough. What I have done is honed my play through all the things that can be trained to make myself a good player. You can't make what isn't there, but you can refine what is.

If you're interested in seeing how a writer can improve, PM me and ask to see a copy of my first story on here and then read the updated version I've just posted. They're miles apart and that's from just 9 months of learning.

The Earl

 

[Dirt Man]

A writer writes, a teacher teaches...

Someone once asked me why I write, and they were talking about my poetry at the time. The only honest answer I could give them at that time was: "I can't not write." Seeing as how I'd rarely if ever put pen, or pencil to paper before turning 46 years old it sounded pretty lame as an answer even to me. I'd turned to poetry after trying to write my first novel, and even after finishing it, finding an editor, and a typist I knew that novel was garbage. It was a very depressing time for me, but my hands refused to give up, and for encouragement I won a poetry contest online. That inspired me to study poetry, and later take a college course in short stories, and article writing that inspired me to write even more. Like many people who have said that writing is easy, and then sat down to do it, I found that writing is nothing more than old fashioned hard work, and must be a labor of love for an author to continue doing it. When I ran into writer's block as a poet, the very first time, I almost cried. And this after writing over two hundred poems. So I went back, and started to look at them from an editor's viewpoint, and after editing somewhere around 50 poems of mine I once again began writing them, only this time I would edit each poem after finishing it. When writer's block came to my short stories, I was already editing them, so instead of writing I would pic up and book, and start reading. Tom Clancy, Clive Cussler, and pretty much every Star Trek, and Destroyer series books I could get my hands on. Again the hands began to write, and I finished writing a whole book in four months time, along with other various stories as well.
Like any art form writing is chiseling away the chafe, and finding the sculpture inside waiting to be released. The same can be said about any story, or poem waiting to be written. But you have to have the right chisels, and hammers to bring it out propperly enough for others to enjoy your work.

As Always
I Am the
Dirt Man

 

[SlickTony]

This is for Diane Marie

In my case I did start young, my mother, bless her soul, praised and encouraged my talent.

I hope you realize how lucky you were.

Dirt Man, some of your writing experiences and commentary are similar to mine. I just have one suggestion WRT your post--hit the enter key every now and then, make some shorter paragraphs.

 

[sinnndy]

i can feel that my writing has gotten so much better from the first couple of stories that i posted. For one thing, i am more aware of proofreading before submitting them, and i have talken some positive critcism from fans and people who didn't like my stories and i believe have become a better writer. i hated writing in school, but i found that i love writing about my sexual adventures. It helps that i have done a lot of things out of the ordinary, and i have found that writing about actual sexperieces is so much easier for me to write about.

 

[Angeline]

Most people can learn the mechanics of writing. As a former English teacher, I could show you samples of students' essays that do all the right things: supporting general statements with details, organizing with transitions that create a framework for ideas, varying sentence type, using proper diction, etc. Still the essays are mediocre. I could also show you writing that is riddled with errors that break all the rules, but is engaging and exciting. Imagination may be innate--it certainly seems as if some have it and others don't, but without it all the training in the world won't make a great writer. Conversely, great imagination needs the discipline of skill to communicate and reach its potential.

 

[SlickTony]

To me, it's kind of like the difference between the Bible and the Book of Mormon. At the risk of pissing off any Mormons who might be here, while the Book of Mormon contains language that is like the language used in the Bible, it somehow fails to come off. It clanks instead of sings.

 

[ldrequiv]

The usual variety of opinions is on display here, but I have yet to see anyone mention my favorite, least-discussed aspect of storytelling.

To be a storyteller, one must have stories to tell.

Most people can learn the proper use of language. A smaller number have a sense for how a story should be framed, characterized, and told -- and I'm not at all sure that that's an acquirable skill. A smaller number yet can find or create stories that will rivet a reader's attention to the page and drag him gasping to their conclusions.

One kind of successful storyteller is the story finder. There are stories everywhere -- but they're usually coated in irrelevancies that have to be peeled away. The story finder knows how to illuminate basics of human nature by taking "ordinary" events from his daily life, or from the newspapers, and stripping away their dramatic impediments until what remains has real striking power.

The other kind is the story creator. This artisan conceives of unusual, dramatic situations entirely in the cavern of his skull, and presents them to us as whole, new cloth. His offerings sometimes seem more "original" than those of the finder, but the finder's work frequently seems more "real."

Which sort of storyteller are you?