Lyrics vs. Poems, or Is There A Elitist Difference?

[mojo_cat]

I want proof.

I've been told recently (in a very heated argument) that the difference between poetry (ha ha let's not even get into describing poetry) and lyrics, as in song lyrics, is staggering and saturnine, and I disagree.

I've found song lyrics to be moving, well-written and vivid, and I've found some poems to be wooden, lame and awkward. I think it's all a matter of style.

Now, my debate partner agreed that some are good and some are bad in each category, but put forth the argument that song lyrics, of necessity, don't have to reach the same standards as poetry because musical accompaniment provides much of the emotional heft of the piece.

I can see her argument, but I think fans of Tom Waits and Tori Amos would argue that sparse accompaniments (or a cappella songs, which feature only one instrument, the voice, and only a melody line) rely more heavily on lyrical might than anything else.

Thoughts, counterarguments, proof?
I've noticed that song lyrics I have submitted to Lit and to other sites in the past don't generally rank as well or have the same impression as poetry, and I think it's because without a sense of rhythm or melody they don't come across as powerfully- but I believe that is MY failing as a songwriter, NOT a proof of the weakness of the form.

I'd be interested in your opinions.

 

[Maria2394]

hey cat
well, Good luck finding actual proof. I think its very subjective. Take for instance, the song from the Wizard of Oz- somewhere over the rainbow..personally, I think its a beautiful song and reads well as a poem ( a simple on, yes), on the other hand, take the song ( cringe) Smack my bitch up, by whoever released it..I can find nothing poetic OR lyrical about that one, of course my opinion...but you have a hard struggle ahead if you insist on absolute proof. Maybe someone more knowledgeable than I can help you. have a great day, maria

 

[Rybka]

Although I hate to differ. . .

I would take the opposite of Maria. I would say that while all lyrics are poems, not all poems can be sung. (Songs are a subset of poetry.)

Regards, Rybka

 

[Maria2394]

its ok to differ!!! dont hate it, I dont cry when people think differently than I do thats what makes life interesting, and besides you will NEVER convince me that Smack my bitch up is a poem anyway,

 

[WickedEve]

When I started writing more poetry a couple of years ago, I began paying better attention to song lyrics. Many of them do need musical accompaniment to bring out the best in the lyrics. I've been a fan of Prince since the very early 80s, and more for his words than just the sound of his music. But many songs that I enjoy don't have the greatest lyrics but when the words and music come together, it can be a memorable song.

 

[The_Fool]

When I started writing more poetry a couple of years ago, I began paying better attention to song lyrics. Many of them do need musical accompaniment to bring out the best in the lyrics. I've been a fan of Prince since the very early 80s, and more for his words than just the sound of his music. But many songs that I enjoy don't have the greatest lyrics but when the words and music come together, it can be a memorable song.

Just to play Devil's advocate, I have seen poetry that does not stand was well alone as it does in the desired visual presentation. Rybka, for one, I know has strong feelings about how poems are presented. Poems integrated with visual images are quite often an example of the whole being greater than the sum of the parts.

I'm just trying to stir up trouble....



Fool

 

[mojo_cat]

Hmm..

I can agree that many song lyrics do not stand alone, and that many poems canot be sung.

But then we have examples like Leonard Cohen and to certain extent Shel Silversteins' children's poems which read beautifully and make lovely songs ("Sarah Cynthia Sylvia Stout", for one).

Maria, the song was by the Prodigy, and I actually think that makes a good point..

Electronic music has a different aural tapestry than guitar or analog music, and sometimes features "poems" made entirely of sound. Should we define poetry to answer this question, or should we redefine what we feel poetry to be?

The song "Smack My Bitch Up" was about heroin use; and caused a huge stir when released because it was perceived as being about wife abuse. Yet, the song itself feels like a violent fit of ague; does that mean it succeeded as a sound poem but failed in its titling, or that it failed as a "poem" altogether?

I gotta say I've read lyrics by Nick Cave and Tom Waits that read beautifully as poems and failed somewhat as songs because the musical accompaniments were not able to parse the material effectively; or were so simple that the music seemed almost to be a detriment to the song itself, since the lyrics stood on their own.

Ever heard "Me And A Gun" by Tori Amos? I think it's my proof, and I'd be happy to post it if you'd like. I'm not sure how many of you are familiar with it already and wouldn't want to presume.

and, hey maria thank you for your lovely feedback.

 

[WickedEve]

Ever heard "Me And A Gun" by Tori Amos? I think it's my proof, and I'd be happy to post it if you'd like. I'm not sure how many of you are familiar with it already and wouldn't want to presume.

Please do post it.

 

[mojo_cat]

Me And A Gun
tori amos

5 a.m.
Friday morning
Thursday night
far from sleep
I"m still up and driving
Can't go home
Obviously

So I'll just
change direction
'cause they'll soon know where I live
and I
wanna live
got a full tank and some chips

it was me
and a gun
and a man on my back
and I sang "Holy Holy"
as he buttoned down his pants
me and a gun
and a man on my back
but I haven't seen Barbados
so I must get out of this

and I know
what this means
me and Jesus
few years back
used to hang
and He said
"It's your choice babe
just remember
I don't think
you'll be back
in three days' time
so you choose well"

tell me what's right
is it my right
to be on my stomach
in Fred's Seville

me and a gun
and a man on my back
but I haven't seen Barbados
so I must get out of this

and do you know Carolina
where the biscuits are soft and sweet
these things
go through your head
when there's a man
on your back
and you're pushed
flat on your stomach
it's not a classic
Cadillac

me and a gun
and a man on my back
but I haven't seen Barbados so I must get out of this
no I haven't seen Barbados
so i must get out of this



If you can tell me that that sucks without musical accompaniment, I'll eat this hat.

 

[Icingsugar]

Some poems work best printed on a sheet of paper, and may have typographical intonation in flowing lines and spacing, or are even accompanied by illustative elements. Others work better read out loud, where an audible flow gives it it's right shape. Yet others should be sung. Even accompained with a certain musical production.

I don't think it's a matter of poetic "quality" which media it works best for. But I'll have to admit that a more simplistic, cliché ridden, plainer piece of text can more easily be accepted when it's not just written down.


Last, here's the song that I nicked my nick from. If this doesn't both read and look like what we most often regard as valid poerty here on the board, then I don't know what.

Icing Sugar by R. Smith (the Cure)

You're delicious
Dreaming
Slack jawed
Green eyed
Rub my nose in
Icing sugar
Smooth as
When this cold and deadly
Blade
Kissed the fruit
So soft
And gently breathing
Under your skin

Oh I'll empty you
I'll empty you
As empty as a boy can be

 

[mojo_cat]

I love that song

I stole my LJ nickname from a Tom Waits song, "Clap Hands", which is a similar example, I think.

I prefer "The Exploding Boy" but Bob's lyrics always read like poetry to me.

 

[jthserra]

Joni Mitchell

Most anything by Joni Mitchell is excellent poetry... Listen to the words from "A Case of You" ...so intensely intimate.



jim

 

[Guest]

Leonard Cohen too.

 

[Rybka]

Re: Joni Mitchell

Most anything by Joni Mitchell is excellent poetry... Listen to the words from "A Case of You" ...so intensely intimate.

jim

Has anybody ever heard of Paul Simon? . . . or what was his name. . . that guy from the 50s. . . ahh. . . you know who I mean. . . Bob something wasn't it? . . . Yeah, That's it! That was the guy. . . Robert Zimmerman, Right?

 

[jthserra]

or that

Beetle guy... the one who married the Japanese Artist...

 

[mojo_cat]

Oh, you're talking about Justin Timberlake, right?

He's dating that Charile's Angels chick..she was Asian or something...


I mentioned Cohen earlier, and yes, Paul Simon, the songwriter's songwriter.
I was mostly trying to prove that poetry is poetry no matter what the form it takes; though musical poetry, or lyrics, have an edge in settling inot one's consciousness through mnemonic device (I'd remember John Prine's "Angel From Montgomery" much less easily if it weren't melodic, but e.e. cummings's "may i feel said he" remains with me faultlessly due to its rhythmic pattern.)

So we all agree that songwriters (some of 'em, anyways) can be poetic; but is their work poetry?

I argued that it is.

oh, and nobody can say that the works of Robert Frost don't read like song lyrics; for all it's worth, he sure gets sh*t on for being a hack, because of his simplistic style and delivery. That's why I dropped out of high school (and also part of how poetry becomes pretention so easily, no?)

 

[Maria2394]

Re: Hmm..

The song "Smack My Bitch Up" was about heroin use; and caused a huge stir when released because it was perceived as being about wife abuse. Yet, the song itself feels like a violent fit of ague; does that mean it succeeded as a sound poem but failed in its titling, or that it failed as a "poem" altogether?

QUOTE]

you're welcome
and I had NO idea it was about heroin use, ( smack my bitch up) my 15 year old just went through a stage where I had to listen to that about 20 times a day.... now I dont know if I hate it cause of what it means( meant) or just because....

 

[HomerPindar]

So we all agree that songwriters (some of 'em, anyways) can be poetic; but is their work poetry?

The question almost demands a definition of poetry, a point already wisely avoided.

versatile . complete . value
PostScript Level
fast, true
built in
standard
supports
reliability

Hardly musical, but that's from a test print sheet off of a HP printer here in the computer lab. As anything can be seen as poetic I think the question of comparing song lyrics to poetry needs to be clarified.

Now, my debate partner agreed that some are good and some are bad in each category, but put forth the argument that song lyrics, of necessity, don't have to reach the same standards as poetry because musical accompaniment provides much of the emotional heft of the piece.

Again, it's a matter of definition, what standards? If you are writing poetry, no, the song does not have to reach the same standard. If you're writing a pop song that you want to get stuck in the minds of a few million caffine addicted youths, then you don't want poetry, you want a bass line and repitition. In effect, you're comparing apples and oranges at that point.

Ultimately though, Rybka summed it up,

I would say that while all lyrics are poems, not all poems can be sung.

Just don't ask if all lyrics are GOOD poems, and certain don't think too much about it the next time you're on the dance floor...


is that disco inferno I hear coming from that other thread?

HomerPindar

 

[Icingsugar]

Again, it's a matter of definition, what standards? If you are writing poetry, no, the song does not have to reach the same standard. If you're writing a pop song that you want to get stuck in the minds of a few million caffine addicted youths, then you don't want poetry, you want a bass line and repitition. In effect, you're comparing apples and oranges at that point.

Hmm. I'd rather not define poetry at all. It's words, they are designed to convey emotion, stir reactions. They are not regular prose. Them are all apples IMO. Or at least fruit, where what we call poerty is a whole diverse basket in itself. Song lyrics, sonettes, soapbox spoken-word, kennings, freeform rants, scribbled on a napkin, shouted from the rooftops, whispered in your baby's ear, tatooed on your butt or pouring out from MTV. Really, is there any difference?

Just don't ask if all lyrics are GOOD poems,

Niether are all poems.
The only difference is that simpler poetry can get published in a song, because then there are other focal points than the mere words that can improve it's values. But the caffeine kids sometimes get fed really great poetry, without realising it.

/Ice

ps. Here is another great songwriting poet, Mike Scott.

 

[HomerPindar]

But the caffeine kids sometimes get fed really great poetry, without realising it.

Very true, and I certainly shouldn't suggest that all pop songs are without poetic merit - on that point I sit corrected

HomerPindar

 

[Icingsugar]

Very true, and I certainly shouldn't suggest that all pop songs are without poetic merit - on that point I sit corrected

Just too bad the little critters know good enough to appreciate it, eh?

 

[Guest]

Hola! I mostly lurk here but I had to come out for this. Seriously, and with heart, I think Smokey Robinson is one of our greatest poets. This is just one example. Call it street, call it folk, call it pop; I call it poetry. (Bet you can't read it though without the melody coming through, ha ha!)

Perdita

The Way You Do The Things You Do

You got a smile so bright
You know you could've been a candle.
I'm holding you so tight
You know you could've been a handle.
The way you swept me off my feet
You know you could've been a broom
And baby you smell so sweet
You know you could've been some perfume

Well you could've been anything
that you wanted to, I can tell
The way you do the things you do, alright.
The way you do the things you do.

As pretty as you are
You know you could've been a flower
If good looks were minutes
You know you could've been an hour
The way you stole my heart
You know you could've been a crook
And baby you're so smart
You know you could've been a schoolbook

Well you could've been anything
that you wanted to, I can tell
The way you do the things you do, alright.
The way you do the things you do.

You make my life so rich
You know you could've been some money
And baby you're so sweet
You know you could've been some honey

 

[Angeline]

Smokey is the man! I always thought "You Really Got a Hold on Me" is one of the swooniest songs ever (and 'dita I just know you love him for the Pagliacchi lyric, lol)

I don't see, in seriousness, why one has to define "poem" or "lyric" to draw a conclusion. Defining art is subjective; each individual defines for him or herself what is artistic. Here's a quote that says it for me. If it feels like art (e.g., poetry) to me, it is...



They teach you there's a boundary line to music. But man, there's no boundary line to art.
Charlie Parker

 

[denis hale]

Great Thread Cat!

This is such an excellent topic for discussion! You could literally bat this one around all night.

For me, really good song lyrics have just as much power as poetry-- they hit on the same level.

By the same token, great poems are like music. Like listening to your favorite song over and over, you never get tired of re-reading a great poem. That is what gives poetry its edge, over other forms of literature. IMO. That parallel with music.

They are inseparable really.

I love Mark Knopfler's lyrics. And Jackson Browne. These guys are poets, in every sense of the word.

Don Henley is absolutely superb, also:


"Got the bubble headed bleach blonde
comes on at five...

She can tell you 'bout the plane crash
with the gleam in her eye

it's interesting when people die

give us
dirty laundry."


Now that is poetry!

 

[Maria2394]

HOT damn!!! isnt that smuggler's blues, or at least by the same guy? no, wait, thats Glenn Frey, right???? killer song...yes indeed

I wanna be a denis when I grow up!!!