LW and No-Fault Divorce

[desecration]

I thought this was an interesting insight:

It might seem hard, but I thought I came away from my marriage better off than if it had ended in a divorce. I was her sole beneficiary so all her assets became mine. If we'd divorced I would have had to split everything with her and it would have been very expensive. I'm looking for another wife now and I'm still young at 36, so children will definitely be part of my next marriage.

From "Bed Bugs" which is unnerving but I can find no fault in the writing.

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

I thought this was an interesting insight:

From "Bed Bugs" which is unnerving but I can find no fault in the writing.

Yeah, no, sorry. It's the perfect example of a clueless author writing just yet another "by the book" plot, with no attachment to its characters whatsoever, and even less desire to get their facts straight.

First of all, this story doesn't have a single paragraph that doesn't have typos, messed-up punctuation, or straight-up missing words. So, the writing in itself is already bottom-tier. But the storytelling isn't any better.

So, the MC loves and cares about her, but once he finds out she cheated, he INSTANTLY loses all interest in the woman, to the point where he doesn't even care when she's violently killed. Not a single second of remorse, let alone grief, before he simply decided that her death was inevitable.

I'm sorry to say: That's not how it works.

But, again, since the author is just writing down a fantasy plot and obviously doesn't care about it making sense, I'm not surprised. I mean, seriously, he even included the tale of his former neighbor catching his wife cheating and then leaving her with an "under-water" mortgage while he doesn't have to pay alimony. But at the end of the story, the MC talks with a lawyer and, suddenly, HE would have lost half his shit, even though he was in the exact same situation as his former neighbor. Of course, the author makes no effort to explain why that would be the case.

It's probably THE worst example you could have chosen to try and make a point other than "LW is overloaded with Reddit authors who don't care about storytelling".

 

[SimonDoom]

I don't understand what this has to do with no-fault divorce. In fault-based divorce systems, fault is used to decide whether a divorce decree should be granted, but it's not the sole factor in deciding who gets what. It's not as though the system would likely leave the wife destitute just because she committed adultery. Divorce is an expensive and often economically devastating process to the parties regardless of whether it's fault-based.

 

[Seadog777]

I'm not gonna get sucked in

I'm not gonna get sucked in

I'm not gonna get sucked in

 

[desecration]

In fault-based divorce systems, fault is used to decide whether a divorce decree should be granted, but it's not the sole factor in deciding who gets what.

These are designed to be 50-50 splits. That's the point of no-fault: instead of handling it like a normal tort case, where the guilty party funds the other, the fault is assumed to be equal and all assets are divided regardless of who did what.

 

[Britva415]

In fault-based divorce systems, fault is used to decide whether a divorce decree should be granted, but it's not the sole factor in deciding who gets what.

In no-fault systems, the absence of fault is not the sole factor in the asset split. There are couples who just do it 50-50, but there are probably more who use fault to negotiate things like asset splits and custody.

I can't speak for every jurisdiction but at least in mine, the judge doesn't want to hear about fault, but the judge does want to see a completed agreement regarding assets and children.

So, the couple spends just as much time and money on their lawyers and private investigators as they would in a no-fault state, and the dispositions of the settlement are only barely less unbalanced than in the states which only grant divorce for cause and recognize fault.

 

[lovecraft68]

So, the MC loves and cares about her, but once he finds out she cheated, he INSTANTLY loses all interest in the woman, to the point where he doesn't even care when she's violently killed. Not a single second of remorse, let alone grief, before he simply decided that her death was inevitable.

I'm sorry to say: That's not how it works.

Wife cheats, dies violently, and he gets all her money, and you say its not how it works?

Did you forget we're discussing LW? That's a BTB hall of fame premise right there.

As for typos, they've never bothered me, its a free site. Want great editing, pay for it.

 

[desecration]

As for typos, they've never bothered me, its a free site. Want great editing, pay for it.

It's a great place for authors to get started and then move on to selling edited versions on Amazon, Lulu, and Smashwords.

 

[lovecraft68]

It's a great place for authors to get started and then move on to selling edited versions on Amazon, Lulu, and Smashwords.

That's exactly what I, and many others, have done.

People always assume bad grammar is a sign of laziness. I see it as-well, first off you don't know if the author is ESL, but maybe the person just struggles with grammar and its the best they can do, and they worked hard on it and are proud of it.

The topic is something I have no love for, but I'm not going to insult their writing ability.

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

Wife cheats, dies violently, and he gets all her money, and you say its not how it works?

Did you forget we're discussing LW? That's a BTB hall of fame premise right there.

As for typos, they've never bothered me, its a free site. Want great editing, pay for it.

I'm still operating under the assumption that OP posted this story to illustrate a point they made in another thread: That, somehow, no-fault divorces are causing violent tendencies in divorced spouses.

It wasn't made in the context of LW stories, but as a statement to the real world. And, in the real world, things don't work that way. People don't go from loving and caring for their spouses to total indifference within the span of two days, and certainly not because they discovered that they COULD be cheating.

 

[desecration]

People always assume bad grammar is a sign of laziness. I see it as-well, first off you don't know if the author is ESL, but maybe the person just struggles with grammar and its the best they can do, and they worked hard on it and are proud of it.

ESL is a good point. Even within native speakers, my feeling is... my experience is... that most people who love language make an attempt to get the grammar and spelling right, but that writing is not about language for its own sake (subsistute "per se" to sound edumacted) but about telling stories, and the focus on that is more important than the details. In the South, for example, you get lots of old quasi-illiterate dudes who tell great stories. For the university set, some of the really great writers like Tolkien and Austen broke many of the "rules" but told a good yarn regardless. I know of lot of people, both wanky academics and frustrated basement dwellers, who are really good with all the rules but have no ear for the content, just like I know a lot of talented, educated, and virtuostic shredders but only one in a million can write a memorable and relevant tune.

 

[lovecraft68]

ESL is a good point. Even within native speakers, my feeling is... my experience is... that most people who love language make an attempt to get the grammar and spelling right, but that writing is not about language for its own sake (subsistute "per se" to sound edumacted) but about telling stories, and the focus on that is more important than the details. In the South, for example, you get lots of old quasi-illiterate dudes who tell great stories. For the university set, some of the really great writers like Tolkien and Austen broke many of the "rules" but told a good yarn regardless. I know of lot of people, both wanky academics and frustrated basement dwellers, who are really good with all the rules but have no ear for the content, just like I know a lot of talented, educated, and virtuostic shredders but only one in a million can write a memorable and relevant tune.

That's me in a nutshell. My first stories were grammatical nightmares, and over the years, I have gotten better, but I'm story first, technical second. I feel I have good ideas, enjoy telling stories, and for years I've been told I have some of the best natural sounding dialgue on the site, but...natural dialogue (I.E how people speak in real life) butchers the shit out of the language. So I do the best I can crossing the T's but my focus is telling a fun story first.

My wife and I, are a great example of your point about the different types of people. My wife is a professional speaker. She's been a president of Toastmasters (a club for publis speaking) and won several speech contests, and has spoken in front of crowds upwards of a thousand people. She won the advanced orator award(and yes, those jokes write themselves) multiple times. She speaks clearly and perfectly, meanwhile I still talk like the street rat drop out I am. "I don't got nothin'" "Whadaya doin?" stuff like that.

But, my wife, for all her mastery, cannot for the life of her, tell a good joke, or even a funny story, or story at all. Once things shift to 'freestyling' she's lost. Meanwhile I tell those long jokes that are more like stories, and I've done stand up. I have great timing and delivery because its all natural. Force me into rules and I'm a hot mess.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

ESL is a good point. Even within native speakers, my feeling is... my experience is... that most people who love language make an attempt to get the grammar and spelling right, but that writing is not about language for its own sake (subsistute "per se" to sound edumacted) but about telling stories, and the focus on that is more important than the details. In the South, for example, you get lots of old quasi-illiterate dudes who tell great stories. For the university set, some of the really great writers like Tolkien and Austen broke many of the "rules" but told a good yarn regardless. I know of lot of people, both wanky academics and frustrated basement dwellers, who are really good with all the rules but have no ear for the content, just like I know a lot of talented, educated, and virtuostic shredders but only one in a million can write a memorable and relevant tune.

As I've told some people I've edited, you can fix grammar and pacing. You can't fix boring.

(I only tell the ones who aren't boring, obviously!)

 

[lovecraft68]

As I've told some people I've edited, you can fix grammar and pacing. You can't fix boring.

(I only tell the ones who aren't boring, obviously!)

There's a couple of authors here who I know are technically sound, but their stories are devoid of feeling and just seem like cardboard cut outs. I'd rather something that might suffer from some shoddy grammar but have some substance story wise.

 

[desecration]

It's the same way with music. Good music with bad production = good, bad music with good production = bad. Good music with good production = good and slightly more pleasant.

 

[Bramblethorn]

That's exactly what I, and many others, have done.

People always assume bad grammar is a sign of laziness. I see it as-well, first off you don't know if the author is ESL, but maybe the person just struggles with grammar and its the best they can do, and they worked hard on it and are proud of it.

I'm sympathetic to ESL writers, but these don't look like ESL issues:

I'd been absently scratching a spot on my a arm

We've been married fot ten years or so

The police were bould be checking to see what kicked off Joe's wife

Anybody who knows enough English to write those sentences knows enough English to see what's wrong with them. My guess is a native speaker writing in a hurry and not giving the story a read-through before posting it.

 

[desecration]

Anybody who knows enough English to write those sentences knows enough English to see what's wrong with them. My guess is a native speaker writing in a hurry and not giving the story a read-through before posting it.

Typos are the bane of my existence. Spell check helps. So does (as you note) re-reading. Emily's suggestion of using voice-to-text was also a good one.

 

[desecration]

Another interesting mention from a high-intensity story of the LW variety:

We live in Biloxi Mississippi, a beautiful antebellum community on the Gulf of Mexico and since Mississippi is one of the states where adultery is cause for divorce I could avoid paying alimony and maybe even get custody of my children.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

I don't understand what this has to do with no-fault divorce. In fault-based divorce systems, fault is used to decide whether a divorce decree should be granted, but it's not the sole factor in deciding who gets what. It's not as though the system would likely leave the wife destitute just because she committed adultery. Divorce is an expensive and often economically devastating process to the parties regardless of whether it's fault-based.

Divorces are expensive because they’re worth it.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Another interesting mention from a high-intensity story of the LW variety:

Author seems to be a bit divorced from legal reality:

https://www.divorcenet.com/resources/adultery-and-divorce-mississippi.html

Judges don't award alimony in order to punish an unfaithful spouse, and courts can't use it as a sanction for bad behavior. However, the judge must at least consider the facts about any marital misconduct or fault that has occurred, including adultery. The only exception is if the court is awarding lump sum alimony, in which case the judge can't consider adultery. Fault is only a factor in periodic alimony cases.

However, just because adultery has occurred doesn't mean that the judge has to rule against the unfaithful spouse. Even if there has been adultery, the judge must issue an alimony decision that's fair to both spouses.

Marital fault is just one of twelve factors, and the court must put it into perspective when deciding whether to award alimony and, if so, in what amount and for what duration. For example, suppose a spouse had an affair and depleted the marital savings account to buy lavish gifts for a lover. In that case, the court is likely to weigh adultery more heavily because of its impact on the spouses' finances.

Will Adultery Impact Child Custody or Support?​

Adultery will not impact a child support order. Courts determine child support by evaluating the number of children and the noncustodial parent's income. For example, if the parents have one child together, the court will determine the noncustodial parent's adjusted gross income and will award 14% of that income to the custodial parent for child support. Mississippi law presumes that the formula is accurate, so judges cannot measure marital fault when calculating child support. (Miss. Code Ann. § 43-19-101.)

In Mississippi, the courts have ruled that judges cannot use marital fault in custody decisions. Instead, the court must evaluate the Albright factors, which include the child's age, relationship with each parent, home and school record, and preference. Additionally, the court must evaluate each parent's ability to care for the child, provide food and shelter, physical and mental health, and moral fitness. Although it may seem that an unfaithful spouse is low in moral character, that, in itself, is not enough to convince a court to deny custody.

 

[SimonDoom]

Author seems to be a bit divorced from legal reality:

https://www.divorcenet.com/resources/adultery-and-divorce-mississippi.html

This is what I have noticed. Within the Loving Wives community, there is a concept of the system of divorce that is borderline delusional. The fact is that all states in the USA recognize no-fault divorce and in many or all of them fault is no longer the issue it once was when determining custody. In most cases it's based on issues unrelated to fault like the interests of the children and trying to achieve a fairly even division of property that was acquired or earned during the marriage.

As to the question of whether no-fault divorce incentivizes murder, one could flip it around and say that a cheating husband in a fault-based system would have a great incentive to murder his wife to make sure that if she found out she couldn't divorce him and take his property. So the incentive argument is not only far-fetched and non-evidenced based, but invalid because, to the extent it carries any water, it can be flipped the other way.

 

[LMWM321]

As an aside, It's a shame that there isn't a better category than LW for those looking for revenge tales - stories where the wife (usually) suffers some terrible fate EVEN when her non-monogamy is endorsed or even encouraged by her husband.

One of the people who commented on my Midnight Yoga As Husband Sleeps story wanted the wife - who has permission to engage in NSA sex whenever she wants - to die in a horrible explosion along with 14 other people who were there.

 

[Bramblethorn]

As to the question of whether no-fault divorce incentivizes murder, one could flip it around and say that a cheating husband in a fault-based system would have a great incentive to murder his wife to make sure that if she found out she couldn't divorce him and take his property. So the incentive argument is not only far-fetched and non-evidenced based, but invalid because, to the extent it carries any water, it can be flipped the other way.

Quite so, and there seems to be better evidence to support the flipped version: https://www.nber.org/digest/mar04/divorce-laws-and-family-violence

"States that passed unilateral divorce laws saw total female suicide decline by around 20 percent in the long run. The authors also find a large decline in domestic violence for both men and women following adoption of unilateral divorce. Finally, the evidence suggests that unilateral divorce led to a decline in females murdered by their partners, while the data reveal no discernible effects for homicide against men."

(Although, on that last point, one wonders what the result would be if we had data on the ones who got away with it. I'm reminded of this story about the nice old lady on the bus.)

This research is based on much older French data (1852-1909) but is interesting because the records distinguished between cases where somebody was motivated to murder by (believed) adultery on the victim's part, and other motives. It came to similar conclusions: when divorce became more accessible, the rates of men murdering their wives for reasons of (wife's) adultery declined in following years. They did also find some decline in the rate of wives murdering husbands, but not enough to achieve statistical significance.

 

[StillStunned]

while the data reveal no discernible effects for homicide against men.

They did also find some decline in the rate of wives murdering husbands, but not enough to achieve statistical significance.

We learn from this story that if you've pissed your woman off she'll get even, no matter what.

 

[lovecraft68]

Quite so, and there seems to be better evidence to support the flipped version: https://www.nber.org/digest/mar04/divorce-laws-and-family-violence

"States that passed unilateral divorce laws saw total female suicide decline by around 20 percent in the long run. The authors also find a large decline in domestic violence for both men and women following adoption of unilateral divorce. Finally, the evidence suggests that unilateral divorce led to a decline in females murdered by their partners, while the data reveal no discernible effects for homicide against men."

(Although, on that last point, one wonders what the result would be if we had data on the ones who got away with it. I'm reminded of this story about the nice old lady on the bus.)

This research is based on much older French data (1852-1909) but is interesting because the records distinguished between cases where somebody was motivated to murder by (believed) adultery on the victim's part, and other motives. It came to similar conclusions: when divorce became more accessible, the rates of men murdering their wives for reasons of (wife's) adultery declined in following years. They did also find some decline in the rate of wives murdering husbands, but not enough to achieve statistical significance.

Watch out B, you're going to get mansplained to, because we all know, men are the real victims in any divorce.