Loving Wives

[TQM]

In a thread below, a question is raised as to why people continue to write Loving Wives stories.

Here's my own opinion: its one of the few interesting ethical areas left in writing about sex.

Our society (ies) have moral norms. These norms change over time. There have been norms about gay/lesbian sex, pre-marital sex, for instance, just as there are still norms about incest and pedophilia.

Now clearly there can be sound reasons for moral norms. Society needs to act on cases of incest and pedophilia. This is all good. But it also has a sorry history of taking action against gay and lesbians, and even pre-marital and extra-marital sex.

Fortunately, today, we have advanced enough as a culture to take a more reasoned approach to such issues, and now, for instance, at least gays and lesbians are, in many places, allowed to be married - and have that marriage recognized by the state.

The extra-marital sex issue, though, is a particularly interesting one. First, many people do in fact engage in extra-marital sex. And yet, in spite of this, if you were to take a poll on the street, almost all would say extra-marital sex is wrong. There is hypocricy here. That's interesting. (to spell it out - some people engaging in extramarital sex would tell you it is wrong to do so.) I'm not taking a stand one way or the other - I'm merely pointing out that a lot of people are hypocrites.

There is something further going on though - in addition to hypocricy, there is an element of misogyny. Men cheat all the time, but when a woman does it she's a slut/whore/tramp. And it is worse when a woman cheats and gets away with it unpunished.

In many of my stories here (whether they are good or bad) the woman engages in extramarital sex, enjoys it, and there are no negative consequences for her. She isn't beaten up by her husband, some of whom are unhappy at her cheating. She isn't divorced. The boyfriend isn't beaten up either. They "get away with it".

A number of people, then, find my stories "unfinished" because there was no fight; no divorce no comeuppance. My story ends with the woman wanting more extramarital sex because it was good. And she may be willing to strain her existing relationship to keep having extramarital sex.

In the old Hollywood flicks, the good guys always win in the end. Well - if you see the woman as the bad guy, in my stories, she is winning - therefore, the story must be finished. Bad guys win in the middle of the movie - not at the end.

So what a segment of the readership want is that the woman engaging in extramarital sex be denounced as a slut/whore/tramp and then punished. She should be divorced out on the streets, and left penniless, having thrown away a good life.

So I think writing about sex is mostly mundane. I personally like the added moral issue of infidelity. I thinking writing about male infidelity is fairly uninteresting because it is too commonplace and frankly, a fairly accepted practice.

That leaves me with female infidelity - and sure enough - responses show the issue remains controversial (for some).

In most cases, my female characters are attractive, bright, and usually very successful. They make their own decisions. They have desires. They make choices. They make choices they are happy with, even if it might lead their partners to be less happy with. They aren't one dimensional story props. Their extramarital adventures open up new perspectives for them on life. (meaning the experience becomes something they want to continue to be open to. They were positive experiences.)

Rather than paint women as naive, easy to prey on, weak-willed, etc., (thereby "explaining" how they could fall into an extra-marital relationship), I prefer to depict them as being introspective - contemplating their own desires and what they should do about them - and as decision makers; and as aggressive (sometimes at least); and as winners.

The tension for my stories, then, falls on the impact on the husband.

Sorry if these thoughts are a bit jumbled.

 

[Lynn_MXX]

Hi there TQM

I've never read any of your stories nor the comments left by others about them, but I do take your point that male infidelity is 'a fairly accepted practice' and 'fairly mundane.' Come to think of it, has anybody on here actually written about it?

Have the people leaving comments on your stories been angry ones? The eroticism of female infidelity and angry comments go hand-in-hand, though the story would have to be good to attract those angry comments. So if you're receiving them, don't be too upset. If you're not, then you ought to question the quality of your stories.

The Loving Wives section is my favourite, though it would be better divided into sub-sections as there are three basic categories, viz:

A) Wife cheats, husband gets his revenge a thousand times over. They often stay together, with the wife now very much a frightened mouse and under the husbands thumb. Lots of people like those stories - all very Charles Bronson - though I fail to see what's erotic about them

B) Husband encourages his wife to take a lover and gets off by watching them. A willing cuckold

C) Wife begins an extramarital affair, often reluctantly but due to the charm of the pursuer and her lack of willpower to say 'no.' She then gives in to temptation. Husband is unhappy about this situation, but can't help but get off on his wife's infidelities. The reluctant/unwilling cuckold.

'B' is the most popular of those categories, though 'C' is my personal favourite. Unfortunately, category 'C' stories are difficult to find. I'll certainly check out your stories, since you hint that some of them may be in category 'C.' If anyone knows of any further 'Loving Wives category C' stories, I'll be glad to hear from them

 

[StrangeLife]

Hi there TQM

I've never read any of your stories nor the comments left by others about them, but I do take your point that male infidelity is 'a fairly accepted practice' and 'fairly mundane.' Come to think of it, has anybody on here actually written about it?

Oh yes - most certainly. I'm a strong advocate for the noble principles of equal opportunity...

 

[R_Falcoln]

Hi there TQM

I've never read any of your stories nor the comments left by others about them, but I do take your point that male infidelity is 'a fairly accepted practice' and 'fairly mundane.' Come to think of it, has anybody on here actually written about it?

Have the people leaving comments on your stories been angry ones? The eroticism of female infidelity and angry comments go hand-in-hand, though the story would have to be good to attract those angry comments. So if you're receiving them, don't be too upset. If you're not, then you ought to question the quality of your stories.

The Loving Wives section is my favourite, though it would be better divided into sub-sections as there are three basic categories, viz:

A) Wife cheats, husband gets his revenge a thousand times over. They often stay together, with the wife now very much a frightened mouse and under the husbands thumb. Lots of people like those stories, though I fail to see what's erotic about them

B) Husband encourages his wife to take a lover and gets off by watching them. A willing cuckold

C) Wife begins an extramarital affair, often reluctantly but due to the charm of the pursuer and her lack of willpower to say 'no.' She then gives in to temptation. Husband is unhappy about this situation, but can't help but get off on his wife's infidelities. The reluctant/unwilling cuckold.

'B' is the most popular of those categories, though 'C' is my personal favourite. Unfortunately, category 'C' stories are difficult to find. I'll certainly check out your stories, since you hint that some of them may be in category 'C.' If anyone knows of any further 'Loving Wives category C' stories, I'll be glad to hear from them

I see your C way more often, Myself.

*shrugs*

-Mr. Falcoln

 

[R_Falcoln]

I think there is a simple answer: These stories continue to be written and propagated because a sufficient number of readers and writers get off on them.

Nothing more complex than that.

*shrugs*

-Mr. Falcoln

 

[PennLady]

I think there is a simple answer: These stories continue to be written and propagated because a sufficient number of readers and writers get off on them.

Nothing more complex than that.

*shrugs*

-Mr. Falcoln

I think that's the basic reason, yep. And I know that a few writers get off on poking the LW trolls as well.

 

[msgrant67]

Always wondered

I've always wondered why Literotica doesn't just set up another section called Cheating Wives or something. I think many of the complaints come from the category title.

My entries get lots of negative feedback (and positive for that matter) because the section has distinct groups of readers looking for different things.

 

[sr71plt]

I've always wondered why Literotica doesn't just set up another section called Cheating Wives or something. I think many of the complaints come from the category title.

My entries get lots of negative feedback (and positive for that matter) because the section has distinct groups of readers looking for different things.

Apparently because it doesn't want to. Suggestions on changes have been given--and ignored--every week or so back into the Middle Ages.

 

[laptopwriter]

To paraphrase Popeye...

LW is what it is and that's all that it is...

 

[Lynn_MXX]

I've always wondered why Literotica doesn't just set up another section called Cheating Wives or something.

There already is one. It's called Loving Wives

 

[R_Falcoln]

There already is one. It's called Loving Wives

The section plainly is mislabeled quite horribly. However all it took for Me was a few seconds of scanning the story summaries to realize such and avoid the section.

-Mr. Falcoln

 

[StrangeLife]

The section plainly is mislabeled quite horribly...

A cheating wife is still a loving wife - she's merely loving somebody other than her husband.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

LW is the gladiator arena, and I enjoy sticking offensive reality up the reader's ass.

The stats reveal that 75% of males, and 70% of females want to cheat. Those who do cheat range from 55% for males, to 40% for females.

The numbers are consistent over time.

My own life experiences make me believe that all females will cheat if the conditions are right. I recall a military friend of mine who appealed to me to fuck his wife while he was in Asia for 18 months. The way he rationalized it was, YOURE NOT INTERESTED IN HER SO THERE'S NO RISK OF YOU STEALING HER, SHE CANT GO WITHOUT COCK BUT IS LOYAL TO THE COCK SHE GETS, SO FUCK HER AND HELP ME OUT. Sure enough, he wasn't gone a month when she intimates to me that she's so horny she's about to climb the walls.

 

[TQM]

LynnMXX and others,

The need to categorize (stories) is very very similar to the need to see a story "finished."

Basically, here, the categories are designed for people to be able to get to the kind of stories they can masturbate to as quickly as possible. This is why people come here.

Motivations for the writers are usually different, and more varied.

Again, I don't see much point in writing about sex (whether straight or gay or multiperson or whatever) just for the sake of it. A story needs to have an issue; needs to have conflict. A story needs to move somewhere from here to there. (I'm not saying I'm a good writer - just saying what a story needs.)

So - if you think a woman having extramarital sex is wicked, a story where she has it, enjoys it, and wants more is upsetting if she doesn't get punished in the end. It's similar to writing a non-sex story about a guy who does some terrible thing to others and gets away with it and profits from it - in a way.

Categorizing further doesn't make much sense. The women in my stories, for instance, are somewhat reluctant to engage in extramarital sex, but none of them are being pushed by their husbands into it. In my stories, the women are finding themselves sexually attracted to others and are struggling with the desire to be faithful and the desire to act on their sexual attractions. Generally, they recognize potential damages to the husband but try to mitigate them or limit them, so that the damage doesn't outweigh the benefit. This is a very different kind of reluctance from the wife who is pushed and pushed into some kind of extramarital sex.

More to the point it would be easy to construct a story that fits into all your categories: the woman who is at first very reluctant, is pushed by her husband but refuses, then gradually changes her mind, and does it behind his back, then he finds out that he got what he wished for, now realizes he doesn't want it after all and punishes her, but he sees the error of his ways, and they reconcile and she continues extramarital affairs.

Putting stories in categories doesn't accomplish anything - except to get people to their masturbation quickly.

 

[Lynn_MXX]

My entries get lots of negative feedback (and positive for that matter) because the section has distinct groups of readers looking for different things.

You're getting it right. The top writers on here will get as much negative feedback as they do positive. All feedback is in fact positive feedback in the same way that all publicity is good publicity. Good writers will always get peoples dander up.

Before I invest my time reading a Lit story, I always check out the feedback. Angry comments - so called negative feedback - are a good incentive to read it

Are there any authors on here that DON'T get as much negative feedback as they do positive? No, I don't think so. It's rather like those popularity polls they have for celebrities. The most loved also tend to top the polls for the most hated

 

[mvengemvenge]

LW stories. ..

Been coming to this site now for 11 years and LW is still my favourite section. However, if you look at the Top List and combine it with many story comments, it becomes obvious that what many actually crave are 'Revenge' stories. Witness the popularity of these stories in the chart. Great stories though some of these are, they are not what I and many others class as LW stories. It is nearly always made clear that these stories feature extra-marital sex, yet guys (presumably) still get in a froth over them. I can only assume these guys had a bad experience and can't understand that others can get gratification from something they obviously hate? It would be better if Lit could have sub-sections so that wife-sharing stories could be split from revenge stories. Anyone moaning then would be an obvious troll, surely?

 

[Lynn_MXX]

It would be better if Lit could have sub-sections so that wife-sharing stories could be split from revenge stories. Anyone moaning then would be an obvious troll, surely?

Agreed

 

[gabaa]

TQM's original submission to this thread was very thought-provoking and the subsequent comments are most interesting. They highlight the very important distinction between fantasy-'It's only a story' and believability i.e. realism. Fantasies of cheating or spouse-sharing are common and, no doubt, enjoyable for many who haven't personally been damaged by them, However, making Loving Wives credible is very difficult if the author chooses to ignore the nasty realities of real-life cheating or spouse-sharing. And nasty they are-I have spent the last 15 years clearing up the wreckage of divorces or trying to minimise the damage by appropriate pre or post-nuptial contracts.

Firstly I (and my colleagues in the partnership) would strongly resist the notion that there is an increased tolerance for cheating. We have seen no sign of it and the published statistics don't support it. The parties to a solemn contract have a immutable right to expect that it will be honored-indeed this is a fundamental requirement of most societies. Consequently people expect cheaters to be punished and are unsatisfied if they 'get away with it'. Furthermore cheaters hurt others and, naturally, society doesn't like that either. It isn't really a question of whether they are 'wicked' but rather that they are behaving in a way which, if widespread, undermines the fabric of human relations. Consequently the natural desire for offenders to be punished is not decreasing, nor will it as long as humans interact with one another by entering voluntarily into contracts. In LW terms the bitch doesn't have to be beaten but she sure should suffer. Having seen a fair number of 'attractive, bright and usually successful' (TQM's words) husbands and wives destroy their marriages and their spouse's and children's lives I have to say that they are often more than usually self-centered, they put their own desires ahead of their families', they don't fully appreciate the likelihood that they will be found out and they have a quite absurd belief that 'it's OK if no-one else knows about it'. It's also incredible that these bright people never seem to have a contingency plan to handle the moment when suspicions start to be aroused. Incidentally in our experience cheaters are often found out because cheating is so much easier to justify to themselves the second and subsequent times so the opportunities for discovery rise rapidly. However many marriages stagger on, seriously wounded or permanently maimed and, therefore, with a lot of regrets, because the costs of divorce both emotionally and financially are so high. Conversely it is always grimly amusing to hear from those who have gone through a divorce that 'In retrospect it was a good thing'. In most of these cases the dispassionate observer, even a divorce lawyer, might seriously disagree. A very expensive mistake is still that.

There appears to be an early indication, in the US and Canada at least, that divorce rates are falling. If our experience is any guide (and I recognise that it may not be) the reasons for this are clear. Fewer people are choosing to get married and, inevitably, the ones whose personalities make them less willing to commit (and more likely to cheat) are avoiding marriage. However, the chances of a marriage failing are still 40% to 50 % in the US and cheating is still a significant cause. incidentally for all you cuckolding fans, the chances of divorce among those who voluntarily share their spouses are several times higher. This accords with common sense-the more your spouse samples others the greater their chance of finding someone they prefer over you. So don't run away with the idea that sharing your spouse shows maturity or security-it actually shows total lack of realism in the face of the facts, if you share them you have an overwhelming chance of losing them eventually.

So for us believability fans, if you are going to try to get us excited by a sexual encounter you should try to avoid suggesting that in the background there is an innocent family who could be badly hurt That isn't a sexy thought. Similarly, if you are trying to write a credible cuckolding story rather than a total fantasy, admittedly very difficult, you need to consider and address the reality that the chances of a marriage surviving much of that sort of thing are small. Otherwise, in both cases, the reader says, 'Too unrealistic to be credible'. It's no coincidence, I feel, that many of the most highly regarded Literotica writers deliver on these requirements.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Most people are liars and good at hiding their activities.

The most damaging experience I ever encountered occurred 20 years ago when a couple I knew since childhood came to my ER to hospitalize the wife. She wanted to kill herself. She wanted to kill herself because he was leaving her for another woman.

As a rule you don't treat anyone you know, but it happens.

I suggested that my patient cork her bottle till she got to the hospital, that I'd simply do the paperwork and transport her. But she spilled her guts anyway.

At that time I knew both of them over 30 years, they were Mike and Carol Brady married 25 years. An attractive, prosperous couple with two adult children.

Anyway, he wanted someone wilder, and she agreed to swing if he wouldn't leave her. So they did the swinging for a while, and he decided to leave anyway. She wanted to die. And she did die after the hospital discharged her.

 

[StrangeLife]

So for us believability fans, if you are going to try to get us excited by a sexual encounter you should try to avoid suggesting that in the background there is an innocent family who could be badly hurt That isn't a sexy thought. Similarly, if you are trying to write a credible cuckolding story rather than a total fantasy, admittedly very difficult, you need to consider and address the reality that the chances of a marriage surviving much of that sort of thing are small. Otherwise, in both cases, the reader says, 'Too unrealistic to be credible'. It's no coincidence, I feel, that many of the most highly regarded Literotica writers deliver on these requirements.

People pursue different angles with their stories. If the cheater or a cuckold is the hero it's natural to focus solely on the excitement of the act, but if you are writing a burn the bitch story it's equally natural to include the innocent victims and the family turmoil. In fact, the worse the fall-out the higher the rating.

 

[TQM]

There is certainly a long history

of extramarital activity. Wealthy men were expected to have mistresses, and in fact owned grand homes but also city apartments for the primary use of mating with others.

The inherent sexism, which remains today in a weakened state is that it was normal for a guy to cheat with another woman, but a punishable offence if the woman cheated with another man.

Many women tolerated their spouse's extramarital affairs because they simply couldn't afford any other option. They had no income; no means of surviving. Similarly, many poorer women were happy to be the mistress of a well-off man.

Since the sections is called loving wives, the focus should be on wives that (love) have sex. (Yes - the term 'loving' surely is a euphemism for having sex here.)

The moralizing stories where the woman meets bad consequences or is punished for her cheating - she's a slut so she deserved to be kicked to the ground - strikes me as part of that old sexism still rearing its ugly head.

The stories where a woman feels compelled to be unfaithful through financial concerns, or a controlling boss or a pushing husband - or whatever have a better chance of being interesting.

But a woman who decides to be unfaithful because she lusts and because she made a conscious decision to give in to that lust - can be quite compelling, if the moralizing is left out. (at least in my opinion.)

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

At LIT there's a Brady Bunch kinda morality to all the sex. Reality isn't welcome or tolerated.

 

[duckandbunny79]

Ended

 

[CPBaudelaire]

So - who and what are we, actually?

TQM's original submission to this thread was very thought-provoking and the subsequent comments are most interesting. They highlight the very important distinction between fantasy-'It's only a story' and believability i.e. realism. Fantasies of cheating or spouse-sharing are common and, no doubt, enjoyable for many who haven't personally been damaged by them, However, making Loving Wives credible is very difficult if the author chooses to ignore the nasty realities of real-life cheating or spouse-sharing. And nasty they are-I have spent the last 15 years clearing up the wreckage of divorces or trying to minimise the damage by appropriate pre or post-nuptial contracts.

Firstly I (and my colleagues in the partnership) would strongly resist the notion that there is an increased tolerance for cheating. We have seen no sign of it and the published statistics don't support it. The parties to a solemn contract have a immutable right to expect that it will be honored-indeed this is a fundamental requirement of most societies. Consequently people expect cheaters to be punished and are unsatisfied if they 'get away with it'. Furthermore cheaters hurt others and, naturally, society doesn't like that either. It isn't really a question of whether they are 'wicked' but rather that they are behaving in a way which, if widespread, undermines the fabric of human relations. Consequently the natural desire for offenders to be punished is not decreasing, nor will it as long as humans interact with one another by entering voluntarily into contracts. In LW terms the bitch doesn't have to be beaten but she sure should suffer. Having seen a fair number of 'attractive, bright and usually successful' (TQM's words) husbands and wives destroy their marriages and their spouse's and children's lives I have to say that they are often more than usually self-centered, they put their own desires ahead of their families', they don't fully appreciate the likelihood that they will be found out and they have a quite absurd belief that 'it's OK if no-one else knows about it'. It's also incredible that these bright people never seem to have a contingency plan to handle the moment when suspicions start to be aroused. Incidentally in our experience cheaters are often found out because cheating is so much easier to justify to themselves the second and subsequent times so the opportunities for discovery rise rapidly. However many marriages stagger on, seriously wounded or permanently maimed and, therefore, with a lot of regrets, because the costs of divorce both emotionally and financially are so high. Conversely it is always grimly amusing to hear from those who have gone through a divorce that 'In retrospect it was a good thing'. In most of these cases the dispassionate observer, even a divorce lawyer, might seriously disagree. A very expensive mistake is still that.

There appears to be an early indication, in the US and Canada at least, that divorce rates are falling. If our experience is any guide (and I recognise that it may not be) the reasons for this are clear. Fewer people are choosing to get married and, inevitably, the ones whose personalities make them less willing to commit (and more likely to cheat) are avoiding marriage. However, the chances of a marriage failing are still 40% to 50 % in the US and cheating is still a significant cause. incidentally for all you cuckolding fans, the chances of divorce among those who voluntarily share their spouses are several times higher. This accords with common sense-the more your spouse samples others the greater their chance of finding someone they prefer over you. So don't run away with the idea that sharing your spouse shows maturity or security-it actually shows total lack of realism in the face of the facts, if you share them you have an overwhelming chance of losing them eventually.

So for us believability fans, if you are going to try to get us excited by a sexual encounter you should try to avoid suggesting that in the background there is an innocent family who could be badly hurt That isn't a sexy thought. Similarly, if you are trying to write a credible cuckolding story rather than a total fantasy, admittedly very difficult, you need to consider and address the reality that the chances of a marriage surviving much of that sort of thing are small. Otherwise, in both cases, the reader says, 'Too unrealistic to be credible'. It's no coincidence, I feel, that many of the most highly regarded Literotica writers deliver on these requirements.

LW stories in particular, indirectly cut to the core of what it means to be human.

Is our essential humanity, as gabaa suggests, defined by our social organization and the constructs which we manufacture to make a stable society? Individuals have social-behavioral expectations of others, which center around the concept of not harming or hurting other members of our social group. For the most part, we no longer aggregate in small tribes where the degree of social bonding is very close and the acceptable behaviors are tightly defined and rigorously enforced.

In our modern world, we have expanded the concept of tribe to include nearly everyone and we evolve laws and social contracts to protect the collective tribe, recognizing that there aren't any other effective means (short of violence) to maintain something that approaches a stable and predictable structure of interactions among what are essential strangers.

But what if our behavioral expectations are founded on concepts and constructs that run counter to our basic biological drives and instincts? Does being human mean we subsume our own natures to somewhat perverse and artificial rules designed to promote social stability? Or does being human mean we acknowledge our essential natures and recognize that (for example) monogamy is not a natural state for what is probably a majority of our species? For better or worse, humans are characterized in part by being hurt emotionally by broken promises and unfulfilled expectations.

Most of the "storm and stress" that is generated in LW comes out of this paradox, I think. I think it's inherent in our nature that we all get a deep emotional charge out of the successful function of society. There's something profoundly satisfying about seeing altruistic and constructive behavior rewarded and something equally visceral about seeing socially-defined wrongdoing punished. It gives us a sense of stability, predictability and comfort. The "revenge" stories speak to this particularly.

We like the stories because they're hawt. We like them because they allow us to internalize prohibited behaviors harmlessly. We like them because the "good guys" win and achieve retribution for being hurt. We tend not to like (or like less) stories which are ambiguous in message or show people "getting away" with proscribed behavior.

Laws and social conventions work when everyone buys into them. When a majority or large minority of people refuse to validate or choose to ignore these rules, they simply don't work. Prohibition comes to mind. Sometimes conventions and perceptions change, when we acknowledge the essential humanity of individuals who are simply being who they really are. Acceptance of homosexuality and gay marriage come to mind.

Would we be better off if we de-stigmatized infidelity? Hard to say. It's interesting to look at the social organization and structure of pygmy chimpanzees (bonobos) - one of our closest genetic relatives. Bonobo society is matriarchal and intensely sexual, but non-monogamous and pan-sexual as well. It has also been noted to be an unusually non-violent and more tranquil society than essentially all other primates. Is there a message for us there? Or will we be abandoning what makes us who we are if we turn our backs on those institutions we think are at the core of our society and indirectly, our survival as a species?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

IT IZ WHAT IT IZ.

Contrary to the BS posted above^^^^^ almost all of us are members of small social groups that rarely exceed 50-100 members.

Monogamy is the rule within communities where juvenile status is a long span of time; there are exceptions, just as there are two headed babies and four leaf clover.

Another rule is: Males wanna fuck, females wanna make babies. Its the female enthusiasm for pregnancy that keeps males committed. Because! If daddy isn't around to keep her filled she'll get it elsewhere or she'll get it elsewhere if daddy's enthusiasm is weak. Likewise she bonds with the male who's most generous with his seed. Its why females like bad boys.

Men like or hate LW because it puts the reality on the table for all to see.