Lost.

[Joe Wordsworth]

I just don't get it.

I've been at this for a few months, and I actually like it here. But if 'Dita is right, maybe I should just go--cause less problems that way.

Every time I get into an argument on here, I think "Oh, great, not again". I'm not baiting people, that's for sure. Most of the time its just me commenting like anyone else about the topic at hand. Sometimes its in agreement with many people, sometimes its not. Opinions just go that way, it seems.

But, someone doesn't agree with me and it's like I just up and assraped the world by having a different view. There begins the argument.

But the same people that raise their ire about my getting into confrontations or how I go about debate are the ones that only have praise for my habit when I happen to be advocating their position. That's happened a few times. Its strange. It seems like people are only interested in the opinions that satiate them or agree with them, they support the stubborn so long as the stubborn support them.

I've tried learning how to do all this. I, honestly, have. But there aren't any real rules, any real mandates or guidelines for how to go about things. "Just be yourself" appears to be a popular phrase of advice, but if "yourself" includes things that aren't appealing to the majorty--well, we're all openminded and inclusive here, but not THAT openminded and inclusive.

I just don't know.

I don't know that I can manage to go about on here without stating an opinion or disagreeing with anyone at all. That seems ridiculously hard. I get PM's from people saying that I shouldn't take things personally, even the personal stuff. I get apologies from people all the time who blew up or wigged out during an argument with me. I even get the "this place doesn't take kindly to being wrong" kind of stuff.

I dunno.

I guess if this place isn't "your opinion (or facts) are only as important as they agree with the masses here", then I don't know that I entirely understand it. Its surely possible I don't. My age gets brought up a lot, but only when someone isn't in agreement and its used as a "you must be wrong because you're young" kind of way. How that can bear relavence when there are people twice and thrice my age with the same opinions is beyond me... unless they're all "immature", too. 'Course that seems like a self-satisfying generality, made to make one feel more secure rather than actually reveal anything meaningful.

I feel bitter, I suppose. Angry, to some extent. Disappointed, for sure. A little depressed about it. A little hurt by it. This is one of those situations where "be yourself" isn't very good advice if being yourself means being hated.

 

[Guest]

Hey, Joe, I don't have a problem with you. You bring something different to the mix here, which isn't a bad thing. But, in the same token, I am not the kind of person who will hold her tongue if you (or anyone else for that matter) says something I find offensive (I didn't say unagreeable).

Just chill, try to think a little before you post (yeah, like I do ) and if you post something that is deliberately contentious - as you did in the breastfeeding thread - be ready to take the back-lash.

Yeah, I know I got personal, and for that I do apologise, but I am human afterall, just like you.

Now go suck a tit, you 'll feel much better for it.

Lou

Edited cos I'm dense sometimes, too. I used a double negative.

 

[Guest]

Joe, I may not be right. But I did post to you honestly. What I said to you had naught to do with your opinions, even when in a minority (even if only seemingly), but with your manner of discourse and expression. There have been jokes about your use of logic but there’s a crux to the humour. I can’t quite explain why but you make a point often of your professional status and put it in our faces so that it precludes more normal conversation, or argumentation if that's the case. Perhaps an example would be someone proclaiming their professional status as landscape painter and then bringing all their peculiar language and rules of perspective into a friendly discussion of such.

I could take apart some posts vis-a-vis logic, but most often I get what a person says and that is what matters to me. I actually wonder if your way of thinking gets in the way of that. Logic and rhetoric have their place and use but I would not let them preclude communication. Can you understand that?

There may well be people here who simply don’t like different opinions but I’ve personally rarely found that to be the case. I can’t recall more than a couple instances when my having an opposing view caused any rancor with me or others. That it happens to you regularly should tell you something about yourself. One of my alcoholic brothers finally understood the expression, “If 50 people tell you you’re drunk, sit down.”

I brought up your age because it’s a reality. You cannot have the experience of living and communicating with people that I have, or Gauche or McKenna and others. You also don’t have the experience on this forum that others have. If you did I daresay you would not be so at odds with Gauche now. Of course that is only my opinion.

Perhaps I haven't credited your youth, but of course no one wants a forum of people all the same age (or the same anything). The Earl just turned 20 and has at times given great arguments against the best minds here but has not encountered the problems you have. Same with MathGirl who is only 21 (though unfortunately long absent now). Still, there were times I had to bring their age up in a matter of understanding. Neither of them took offense as they knew I liked and respected them. Maths in fact often teased me about my age.

I very much appreciate this thread, I read it as honest and forthright. Don’t know what else to say at the moment, but I never meant to imply you should leave or give up. In fact, I hoped you would think about what I said and perhaps want more input re. how things have come to this point.

You are smart, mature ‘for your age’ (that’s a general point is all), and seem to have a sense of humour and curiosity—all welcome here, or to me at least.

Perdita

 

[Guest]

 

[ABSTRUSE]

Hey Joe, don't go.

Here's the straight up....you're like a dog with a bone boy, sometimes you just need to post and let it go.
You're a natural debater, which is good, and you're very smart, also good.
Somtimes you just have to lay back and go with the flow. You sometimes come on a bit too strong. Sometimes it's best to learn through listening.

There are a lot of awesome people here and they are not only great resources of knowledge, but many have become my dearest friends, several of whom right now are helping me through a very difficult and painful time in my life. I would even eat a bug for some of them.

You have a sense of humor love, lets see some more of that silly side of you...and get your ass over to my bar once in a while.

~A~

 

[Guest]

i disagree.

I balk.

Perdita

 

[Guest]

 

[Guest]

 

[Colleen Thomas]

When you post something with the intent of provokeing someone, you sometimes catch hell not only from that person, but from others. This isn't a debate society, there is no mediator to enforce rules against ad homim attacks, blind rheotric and other sophistic techniques.

I think the real problem is that there are threads where you don't have anyting to say, but post anyway. In some of those, at least, you post things that are deliberatly contentious. While the object of such posts may be to stimulate debate, you seem blissfully unaware that many times the subject is important to the people there. The responses then seem out of line, as you were just stateing something to stimulate a debate or stir the pot, depending upon whom is characterizing you.

Basically, you need to learn not to stir up the hornets if you aren't prepared to deal with the stings. The stings are going to come.

In this forum, even with the most solid argument, the most well thought out and rational approach, you can still get in a siclian knife fight with someone who has an opposing view. It's going to happen because people who care enough to enter into these threads generally care about the subject matter.

In general, you are going to find, that most people here simply ignore you when they decide you are just an agent provacatuer. Those who still respond to you come out swinging, because they expect an argument from you and not a debate.

If the situation really bothers you, then you need to add one more step to your thought process before you post. You need to consider what the fall out might be and then judge the statement's importance to you. Discretion, is often the better part of valor. You have, IMHO, shown very little discretion in whom you antagonize with a lot of posts.

When you have antagonized enough people, you find yourself in the same boat with the trolls. Even when you have a good point, people can't accept it coming from you.

-Colly

 

[English Lady]

Hey Joe...I haven't crossed paths with you over much as I tend to post infrequently and in only threads that take my fancy. I avoid all the politics (I don't get it) I avoid alot of the debating ('cos I'll probalby end up looking dumb) and I don't post on anything to do with grammar and spelling ('cos i'm crap at both of'em) so I tend to post on the "nicer" threads unless osmething comes up that I really do feel strongly about.

Anyhow, what I am trying to say is you seem alright to me. You've got your views and you air'em. You are intelligent and full of opinions. Pick and choose your threads. Don't start one if you anticipate it will only lead to heartache for you. Life is too short for that.

Also if you need to take a break. get it all in perspective. This is something you do in your leisure time (I guess) and so should be osmething you enjoy. You can always come back whenever you like.

I yo-yo. sometimes (like now) I am here alot. Othertimes i barely check in. It depends on my life and how the board is at the time...sometimes i see lots to join in with and other times I don't.

Do what YOU want to do. that is what it comes down to....

 

[gauchecritic]

[avuncular] Joe, Joe, Joe. Lad, lad, lad. [/avuncular]

Go have a look at your first post here. I mean read it through.

In all honesty this is the most 'human' you've been since you joined the AH. (apart from the odd joke or two)

I could give you psychological reasoning as to why but I won't, that's just my opinion (one of many as you well know)

Even as you got quite angry in the post you stayed at the human end, vulnerable and emotional.

It's the words you used and the meaning you conveyed. Semanticists and semioticists could tell you where and how, I can't, I don't know anything about those things. (Hmm Gauche-the-arrogant admitting he doesn't know about something?) But I do know that the tenor of that post is completely at odds with 99% of your posts that I've read.

Notice above that I said "since you joined the AH". Not 'since you visited' or 'since you popped up'.

Joined. You are joined. You are in fact one of the AH. We know what we expect from you and will (as are at present) be surprised and dare I say; delighted, when you don't behave 'as expected'.

[patronising] You've arrived at the point where quite a lot of people give it up as a bad job and disappear. But you've stopped and asked why first. The others didn't. You've grown. [/patronising]

As for people who are 'down on you' when at odds and encouraging when in agreement. Well, you're a good bloke to have on their side in an arguement. If you agree, then their arguement is not only right, but by association; logical.

You may have noticed in other threads people will say things like "As Doc Mabeus says..." or "I agree with Og..." or "Weird Harold is right..." I'm sure there's some logical fallacy thing in there to do that, but it's what people do.

The "you are young and inexperienced" thing is a number one defence from experienced people, I've used it, in memory, twice, once with you and the other with TheEarl. And you're quite right, experiece is no guarantee of 'right'. Just as age is no guarantee of experience.

It's just that you have to always bear in mind that those with the age advantage have been there and done that. And not a single one of us were as self righteous and arrogant as you are.

Consider yourself cliqued. (you have to work out which clique)

Remember that the maxim "Never apologise" carries with it the burden of never saying anything that you ought to apologise for.

Gauche

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

I see.

 

[herecomestherain]

Beautifully restrained Joe. Follow with "I understand" and I'm sure there'll be a group hug in the offing .

 

[tolyk]

Joe, personally I almost always enjoy your logical arguements. I am also a logical mind, though I tend to leave my logic to myself and to debates that have some logical order to them. Many times I have agreed with what you have said, but I don't bother to post and say that due to the simple fact that you summed it up well enough.

One tip, as some others have said, learn how to shut the logic off and be 'human' (I know, who wants to be, but still.. it has its perks sometimes)


-Tol

 

[nushu2]

Hey Joe

I've stayed away from those arguments about religion and politics but it wasn't because of the way you argued.

Haven't you learned yet that we don't have any right to an opinion. We're not women. They'll let us know what our opinion ought to be. It might even be logical. Oops, is that another argument?

 

[poohlive]

Part of the problem may lie in the other person's corner here. I mean, we're telling Joe he has to be human, and that might be right, but another part is that I think everyone else... (well, not everyone else, but a lot of people) just take things too seriously. They post things which are their opinion, and then all of a sudden when it's attacked, they get all personal.

And Joe. You argue too well, and you don't have any of your own opinions. When someone comes on here, they'll say something like, "Well, I just read this in the newspaper, and this is what I think."

And, you'll go back at them saying, "Well, the great philosopher said this about it..." or "I tend to agree more with all these scholars who have already debated this professionally, and came up with this solution, so there's no need to talk about it anymore."

Sometimes I feel like you don't have an opinion of your own. Rather, your some sort of weird medium for all the philosophers and scholars of the world. Whenever a topic comes up, you just bring in what they had to say, and then argue that.

People really aren't here to argue... well, some are, but they haven't taken classes, they don't know the proper way to debate as you do. You have skills they don't, and they feel threatened by that.

And, details! Man, you get lost in the details. Why does every single word need to be defined? Why do phrases need to be gone over and over and over again? People aren't publishing works of knowledge or text books here, it's just some opinions and good natured thoughts, nothing more. I think a lot of people just get angry at the fact that there are two pages of debate over what the word sex really means, whether it involves a vagina, or not, whether the sex of the determinate species is related to the act itself, peple having to run all over getting different definitions from different dictionaries. It's sad and pathetic.

It just goes on and on and on like that. I like you, Joe, cause I get to brush off my own debating skills, and have some real fun. But, other people don't. People want sympathy, or at least good natured debating.

When's the last time you ever gave out a compliment? I mean, even to someone you're arguing against. This isn't a debate, you don't get points for valid information you bring to the table. This is a guy, who works a job, and just wants to share a bit of his life with you. The least you can say is, "Hey, bud, thanks for offering up your opinion. I don't agree with you, but, still, you put yourself out there... and that means something."

Instead of, "Well, now you're just arguing semantics," or "If that's what you think, I'll just bow out of this right now, go someplace where people are going to look at the real facts," or " they support the stubborn so long as the stubborn support them."

And, at some point, you just have to grow a thick skin if you're going to express your opinion like that. There's freedom of speech here, but that goes both ways. You can't put your opinion out there, and not expect positive and negative feedback. Some people don't know how to argue, so they'll go for cheap shots, they'll go for below the belt kinda things. Age, religion, hell, even your expertise. You don't throw your education in anyone's face, but even mentioning it could make someone feel like if they're just some high school graduate their opinion isn't important enough.

Lighten up. This isn't a debate class... this is a bulletin board. Some people are idiots, some people have stupid opinions, but it doesn't matter, they're all people, and they all deserve a little respect... even if they don't respect you. It's called being the better man. Sometimes, you gotta be the better man, walk away, or whatever.

Even if you know they're wrong... and 9 times out of 10, they are.

 

[Guest]

Hey Joe

I've stayed away from those arguments about religion and politics but it wasn't because of the way you argued.

Haven't you learned yet that we don't have any right to an opinion. We're not women. They'll let us know what our opinion ought to be. It might even be logical. Oops, is that another argument?

Why did you post this on this thread?

 

[Guest]

Remember that the maxim "Never apologise" carries with it the burden of never saying anything that you ought to apologise for.

Gauche

As always, brilliant.



Um, Joe?

I apologize for telling you to fuck off.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

I'm going to fuck all of you.

*trying the "more human" thing*

 

[Guest]

I'm going to fuck all of you.

*trying the "more human" thing*

http://www.addis-welt.de/smilie/smilie/zensiert/Sex_on_the_bed.gif

 

[shereads]

I'm going to fuck all of you.

All? At your age, that could take over an hour!

 

[shereads]

[avuncular] Joe, Joe, Joe. Lad, lad, lad. [/avuncular]

Gauche. In all sincerity, you are a brilliant writer. I had almost forgotten.

 

[Belegon]

I'm going to fuck all of you.

*trying the "more human" thing*

Even me Joe?

 

[Belegon]

Seriously now...

Joe, you piss me off sometimes. I disagree with you often. But so what?

If you enjoy being here then stay. Fuck anybody who says otherwise.


I promise to continue to disagree with you sometimes and agree others. I promise to tell you what I really think. I promise that I will never tell you you have no right to be here.

Fuck em if they can't take a joke. Joke em if they can't take a fuck. You have paid your dues. What you do with the membership is up to you.

 

[oggbashan]

Text on a screen is easy to misinterpret.

What you intend to say and what the reader understands from the bare text can be very different.

When talking face to face, visual clues, body language and tone of voice all modify what you say.

For example, in a face to face situation think of how many ways it is possible to say:

"I didn't know that"

You can convey surprise, thanks for the information; that what was previously said was irrelevant or inappropriate - I could go on.

On a screen only the context can make the statement specific.

Irony, satire and almost any humour are difficult to transmit clearly.

The members of the AH come from a variety of cultures with different uses of the English language. What one may read as "X" another might read as "Y" and that is true just in the UK. In the vastness of the US language clues vary widely. Then there are those among us whose native language is not English...

I am constantly surprised that we understand each other so well.

Og