Looking for thoughts on a book on writing

[PennLady]

My publisher suggested I read a book called "Hooked: write fiction that grabs readers at page one and never lets them go." The author is Les Edgerton.

Has anyone read this, and what do they think? I know I could go look at the Amazon reviews, but it would mean more to me to hear from people on the site who've read it. Thanks.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I wasnt impressed with it. I wasnt impressed cuz the authors examples of great hooks werent so great.

When I write a hook I create something immediately interesting, like a fight with a car dealer service manager, or a young thug stalks Satan to mug him, or a naked kid crawling across the floor beneath the clothes racks at WALMART to lick womens shoes as they shop. In one story a kid cuts his arm off with an axe at the beginning. In yet another story mom and sis drag drunk dad outta the Caravan onto the sidewalk in front of detox. Or 4 horny college boys on spring break help a pretty blond with a flat tire. Or a lady gets caught in the rain racing to her car but breaks a heel, falls, and breaks some nails on the pavement.

 

[PayDay]

Why would you want to read that?

My publisher suggested I read a book called "Hooked: write fiction that grabs readers at page one and never lets them go." The author is Les Edgerton.

Has anyone read this, and what do they think? I know I could go look at the Amazon reviews, but it would mean more to me to hear from people on the site who've read it. Thanks.

If you need help to write fiction, then you should not write fiction. Some people are meant to flip burgers, that's just the way it is.

The only writing tools a writer needs are a dictionary and a mind. Reading that drivel would be a waste of time, as the title tells you it's full of common sense and things you should already know. They might as well title the book you are questioning as "Being Creative for dummies."

I mean seriously, this is like someone who lives near a mountain telling you to buy skis at their shop so that you can be a professional and compete in the Olympics.

 

[PennLady]

If you need help to write fiction, then you should not write fiction. Some people are meant to flip burgers, that's just the way it is.

The only writing tools a writer needs are a dictionary and a mind. Reading that drivel would be a waste of time, as the title tells you it's full of common sense and things you should already know. They might as well title the book you are questioning as "Being Creative for dummies."

I mean seriously, this is like someone who lives near a mountain telling you to buy skis at their shop so that you can be a professional and compete in the Olympics.

No offense, but that is crap. Some people do need help on learning to craft a story -- have you seen what gets posted on this site and some others? If everyone knew how, everyone would do it. It's like saying all you need for acting is to repeat lines and pretend emotion; it's not that simple and if it was, everyone would do it.

I have read other books on writing, such as Stephen King's "On Writing," and "Self-Editing for Fiction Writers," by King and Browne, I think. Both have useful information and I don't regret the time I spent reading them. I'm not saying these are any kind of writing Bible and that you need to obey every word. But yes, there is some helpful information out there. All I'm asking for is opinions of this particular book, if anyone has read it.

I'm glad you know everything there is to know about writing a story. Maybe you should write a book about it.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Yes, Stephen King wrote ON WRITING, but he also said in interviews that he was so wasted when he wrote many of his books that he has no idea how he crafted them. THAT said, how is ON WRITING relevant? It isnt. Its FANFARE.

 

[PayDay]

Way to be totally pissed and angry.

No offense, but that is crap. Some people do need help on learning to craft a story -- have you seen what gets posted on this site and some others? If everyone knew how, everyone would do it.

My point exactly. Some people should not write, they only do it because they want to.

It's like saying all you need for acting is to repeat lines and pretend emotion; it's not that simple and if it was, everyone would do it.

That's all acting is. Ask any actor what they tell their kids about their career, I bet it includes the word 'pretend' or something similar. Any pretty idiot can be an actor, or have you not ever watched a Television?

I have read other books on writing, such as Stephen King's "On Writing," and "Self-Editing for Fiction Writers," by King and Browne, I think. Both have useful information and I don't regret the time I spent reading them. I'm not saying these are any kind of writing Bible and that you need to obey every word. But yes, there is some helpful information out there.

Neat. Were weren't talking about those two books, as they are of a completely different vein than the book you mentioned. They also avoid the 'How To' name in the title.

All I'm asking for is opinions of this particular book, if anyone has read it.

You asked on a public forum full of misfits, not my problem.

I'm glad you know everything there is to know about writing a story. Maybe you should write a book about it.

Awesome. Way to make something up and use it as a personal attack as if that was the intention of my writing. Hmm... Let me try. I bet you walk around and introduce yourself to new people as: "Hi, I'm a professional writer and I'm published and you are not." See? It sucks when personal digs are totally fake and out of context.

Learn some perspective, and learn to relax. No wonder your publisher wants you to read How To books, because you clearly miss the points of intention and attack creative thought.

 

[PennLady]

My point exactly. Some people should not write, they only do it because they want to.

True, but not the point. And I'm sure many published authors would say they started out and learned as they went along. So it's more than just a dictionary and a mind.

Neat. Were weren't talking about those two books, as they are of a completely different vein than the book you mentioned. They also avoid the 'How To' name in the title.

So just because it says "How to," it's automatically a bad book? How would you know if you haven't read it? How would you know it's different from the others? Have you read the "Self-Editing..." book? It's a lot of "how to" advice, even though it doesn't say that in the title. Does that make it worthless?

Awesome. Way to make something up and use it as a personal attack as if that was the intention of my writing. Hmm... Let me try. I bet you walk around and introduce yourself to new people as: "Hi, I'm a professional writer and I'm published and you are not." See? It sucks when personal digs are totally fake and out of context.

Learn some perspective, and learn to relax. No wonder your publisher wants you to read How To books, because you clearly miss the points of intention and attack creative thought.

Read any of my stuff? Then you can tell me about my creative thought or lack thereof.

I'm not saying I like this book. In fact, I disagree with the author on various things. I also think there can't be a "how to" on creativity. However, I also know I'm a bit biased going into it, so I'm just asking for opinions on this book; I got yours -- you think it's worthless, without even reading it, and that's fine. FYI, my publisher suggested it because she felt I did not adhere to the proper "formula" as put forth in this book, i.e., I was too creative.

Way to criticize personal attacks and then end with one.

 

[R. Richard]

No, I haven't read the book. However, let me try a bit of analysis here.

If someone writes a book to tell an author how to write a book, then the book will tell an author how to write a book in the style of whoever wrote the book. If the author's style is close to that of whoever wrote the book, then the how-to might well be helpful. Otherwise the how-to book would struggle to rise to the level of useless.

The best how-to books that I have ever read are the ones that I wrote for this site. I made a lot of mistakes early on and I learned from the mistakes. I now have a lot of books published and the books are all in my own style. Many people might not like my style, but I sell enough books that some people must like my style.

 

[PayDay]

Wow, way to fall into a groove.

...I'm sure many published authors would say they started out and learned as they went along. So it's more than just a dictionary and a mind.

In Your Opinion. Your opinion. Not mine, and not everyone's. Also, being published means very little when it comes to talent, see below.

So just because it says "How to," it's automatically a bad book? How would you know if you haven't read it? How would you know it's different from the others? Have you read the "Self-Editing..." book? It's a lot of "how to" advice, even though it doesn't say that in the title. Does that make it worthless?

I never said all HowTos are bad, just the ones aiming to make a person better at something that comes natural. Would you read 'How To become the best athlete in the world' ? I don't read those types of books. There is no reason to, nor is there a need. My HowTo reading stops at technical and mechanical manuals for specific devices and/or machinery.

Read any of my stuff? Then you can tell me about my creative thought or lack thereof.

First off, I never attacked your creativity (well, I'm about to). I don't know where you read that from, or where you fashioned the idea. You are reading into what is not there, and ignoring what is, not to mention outladish assumptions.

You think I haven't tried to read your stuff? Well I did, I tried a while back, and recently. It seemed mechanical and stale and over the top for the sake of arrogance. Sorry, just my opinion. I am quite aware of how many people like your stuff, which is fine, they are entitled to that opinion. The bold writing before this sentence is maybe something you need to look into.

Don't worry, I never made it all the way through one of your stories, so I did not vote on them.

I'm not saying I like this book. In fact, I disagree with the author on various things. I also think there can't be a "how to" on creativity. However, I also know I'm a bit biased going into it, so I'm just asking for opinions on this book; I got yours -- you think it's worthless, without even reading it, and that's fine.

I don't like the author either. I have read some of his 'award winning' short stories, and I firmly believe he should not be instructing others on hooking readers. Stop being so malicious to an educated response and assuming it's rubbish because you do not neccessarily understand it's context, or because you 'dislike' a poster.

FYI, my publisher suggested it because she felt I did not adhere to the proper "formula" as put forth in this book, i.e., I was too creative.

I find this hard to believe, but you are entitled to your own opinion. Maybe you should get another publisher, because, quite frankly, there is no such thing as too creative, only un-market-able writing.

Way to criticize personal attacks and then end with one.

Just replying in kind, as it seems to be the only thing you actually read anyway...

(That was not a dig, that was the truth of my perspective. You seem, based on your posts, to be the nicest person in the world until someone disagrees with you or thinks differently than you do. Not everyone is out to get you. Not everyone is mean and attacking you just because you think so. It is also quite obvious that you skim.)

I have an idea, why don't you argue everything in this post, and misinterpret it. (That was not a dig or cut either, despite what you think.)

 

[latinplayer]

My Two Cents

My suggestion is to read someone else's opinion of writing only if you want to take a break from reading the genre of fiction that you usually write. It's like taking a class on creative writing, or art appreciation for that matter, where you have a single individual telling you what they think is right or wrong, and you find yourself trying to conform to their standards of interpretation.

The most useful bits of information I've gathered from 'how to' books or essays on writing is when I'm looking for specific pointers on a subject I don't have much experience writing in, such as stories aimed at 'tweener's for example. And I've tried a few different techniques from popular authors, tweaked them, and conformed them to MY writing style, instead of conforming my writing to THEIR writing style.

I think a person's wisdom grows, not so much by following someone else's advice, but more by immersing yourself in your genre and reading works written by writers that are legendary, and for me this includes King and Lovecraft for horror, and Asimov, Tolkien and the like for fantasy. It's not like English or Math, where there is a right and wrong answer for every question. Writing is more like tapping into a collective of the human mind, and interpreting it in your own individual way.

I don't get why your publisher would be referring you to read the book you mentioned. Is that going to somehow make your writing more viable?

"He was so mean that wherever he was standing became the bad part of town."

That's the greatest hook ever? A comment from one of the people on Amazon states that Edgerton uses his own opening lines as proof of his assumption that he has mastered the hook to mythical proportions. Come on! He published his book in 2007, hasn't edited shit, and his other subjects include writing books on business, hairstyling, baseball, besides the two where he wants to give us advice on how to write. You'd think the guy would have half a dozen bestsellers, in a single genre, or a slew of edited anthologies, before he tries to school the world.

And from what I gather on this guys' wiki, he's all over the map.

* Sold and used drugs
* Worked for an escort service for older, wealthy women in New Orleans
* Sold life insurance
* Worked as a headhunter for a firm specializing in recruiting executives for businesses dealing with electronic warfare
* Was a sports reporter
* Won 16 state championships for hairstyling, a skill he learned in prison
* Co-hosted a cable-television show about fashion in New Orleans
* Made a television commercial
* Acted in a movie
* Was homeless and eating out of a dumpster
* Went through several marriages
* Attended A.A. meetings
* Began writing seriously

Does this read like this author has a true passion for writing? I've been writing for about 30 years, and I don't have the gall to pretend I know everything about it. In fact, if I had a publisher who recommended that I read someone else's idea of how to write, I'd probably tell them to take that book and shove it up their ass.

Without even reading anything written by Les Edgerton, I already have the impression that this guy is only out to make a fast buck. Who knows? Maybe this guy is the next Mark Twain, but after looking him up, I'm not seeing it.

The 34 five star reviews don't look right, either. Here's what one person wrote:

This book inspired me to write my very first Amazon book review because there are so few for it.

Seriously, I hope you didn't spend the 10 bucks this book goes for on Amazon.

 

[latinplayer]

I wasnt impressed with it. I wasnt impressed cuz the authors examples of great hooks werent so great.

When I write a hook I create something immediately interesting, like a fight with a car dealer service manager, or a young thug stalks Satan to mug him, or a naked kid crawling across the floor beneath the clothes racks at WALMART to lick womens shoes as they shop. In one story a kid cuts his arm off with an axe at the beginning. In yet another story mom and sis drag drunk dad outta the Caravan onto the sidewalk in front of detox. Or 4 horny college boys on spring break help a pretty blond with a flat tire. Or a lady gets caught in the rain racing to her car but breaks a heel, falls, and breaks some nails on the pavement.

Personally, I don't like this style, because it mimics the typical Hollywood movie, where you need an explosion or special effect to settle the audience down at the start. I'd rather take my time and set a scene up like a tree of dominoes, where every branch is inter-connected and leads to everything else. I'm reminded of the opening scene in the movie Hooligans, where a random and unrelated assault gives the audience a good dose of shock factor, before the story actually begins. This was unnecessary, in my opinion, as the story had plenty of violence already.

I compare the idea to that of lighting a firecracker and watching it go off, whereas in my stories, I envision a huge tapestry being woven from the first few yarns.

Please don't misinterpret my post as a flame, because if that style works for you, then by all means use it. It's just that I've read quite a few submission guidelines that specifically state they don't want this type of beginning in a short story, and put such a start under the Don't Do This category.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Heres a story idea for free, including the hook.

A hot gal holds up a bank and takes a loan officer hostage. Back at the hideaway she fucks his brains out and shoots him.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Personally, I don't like this style, because it mimics the typical Hollywood movie, where you need an explosion or special effect to settle the audience down at the start. I'd rather take my time and set a scene up like a tree of dominoes, where every branch is inter-connected and leads to everything else. I'm reminded of the opening scene in the movie Hooligans, where a random and unrelated assault gives the audience a good dose of shock factor, before the story actually begins. This was unnecessary, in my opinion, as the story had plenty of violence already.

I compare the idea to that of lighting a firecracker and watching it go off, whereas in my stories, I envision a huge tapestry being woven from the first few yarns.

Please don't misinterpret my post as a flame, because if that style works for you, then by all means use it. It's just that I've read quite a few submission guidelines that specifically state they don't want this type of beginning in a short story, and put such a start under the Don't Do This category.

I sell my stuff to slasher movie makers and they like it. Plenty of good writers start with pulp fiction. I say, DONT DO IT IF YOURE NO EFFING GOOD AT IT. For me I know that readers can relate to walking outta a beauty parlor, running thru the rain, falling and effing themselves up with soggy hair, broken nails, leg bruises and abrasions! Then they get in the car on the expressway, where some asshole in a big truck rides beside them covering their windshield with water and crap. And after I put her thru hell and she looks like a septic tank she ends up spending the night with the bestseller author she had planned to see at a book signing at the mall.

Yes, indeed, its formula, but it works and it appeals to readers.

 

[PennLady]

I don't like the author either. I have read some of his 'award winning' short stories, and I firmly believe he should not be instructing others on hooking readers. Stop being so malicious to an educated response and assuming it's rubbish because you do not neccessarily understand it's context, or because you 'dislike' a poster.

The first part of this is helpful. I haven't read his material, although I will, because I would want to see this guy in action, so to speak. I was not malicious, and I don't dismiss people's opinion, whether I like them or not. You came out swinging about these type of books in general, which is fine, but it wasn't helpful on that particular book.

 

[PennLady]

The most useful bits of information I've gathered from 'how to' books or essays on writing is when I'm looking for specific pointers on a subject I don't have much experience writing in, such as stories aimed at 'tweener's for example. And I've tried a few different techniques from popular authors, tweaked them, and conformed them to MY writing style, instead of conforming my writing to THEIR writing style.

I've found that there are helpful hints in some of these advice books, ranging from grammar suggestions to ideas on how to get an idea across. And I'd think, yes, if you wanted to target a specific audience, it'd be good to read something that gives you at least a broad understanding of what they (seem to) like.

This is also less a book on style than on structure mechanics, I guess you'd say. Edgerton talks about how to set up a story, then backs up to setting up scenes, then backs further up and gets into different aspects of conflict.

I think a person's wisdom grows, not so much by following someone else's advice, but more by immersing yourself in your genre and reading works written by writers that are legendary, and for me this includes King and Lovecraft for horror, and Asimov, Tolkien and the like for fantasy. It's not like English or Math, where there is a right and wrong answer for every question. Writing is more like tapping into a collective of the human mind, and interpreting it in your own individual way.

I think reading lots of stuff and then writing is really the only way to get better. I've read a lot of romance since starting to write here, and those have given me both ideas on how to write it, and how not to, but also shows me how stories are set up and flow, etc. Those are good things to know in any genre.

I don't get why your publisher would be referring you to read the book you mentioned. Is that going to somehow make your writing more viable?

She apparently thinks so.

"He was so mean that wherever he was standing became the bad part of town."

That's the greatest hook ever? A comment from one of the people on Amazon states that Edgerton uses his own opening lines as proof of his assumption that he has mastered the hook to mythical proportions.

I didn't like that either; it sounded like a weak joke from Johnny Carson or some other older stand up comic. And I didn't think much of him citing his own work. Another thing I don't like is that he makes constant comparisons to movies, especially Thelma & Louise, at least in what I've read so far. Nothing against the movie, but it doesn't seem right that if you're going to give people advice on writing a story that you'd keep turning to a movie for examples.

ETA: To be fair, in the wiki article, there is a list of stories that have been up for awards. Unless that's all a lie, someone thinks he's okay. Also, as to coming to writing later in life -- well, Brian Jacques who wrote the Redwall books, which I love, didn't start until he was in his 40s or 50s, I think. Not trying to defend the author, just tossing this out there.

Seriously, I hope you didn't spend the 10 bucks this book goes for on Amazon.

No, I did not. Oddly, the week or so before she'd mentioned it to me, I'd gotten that one and five others for free. So so far the only thing I've lost is time.

 

[D_Lynn]

Yeegads!

I haven't read the book of which you are referring. In fact, I've purposefully avoided formal instruction in the area of writing. I really am afraid of horking-up (technical term) my natural writing style.

I think sometimes it's just best to read other fictional novels. Take a break, set your story aside for no less than 3 weeks and read other fictional works. Clear your head of this project. When you get back to your story, a hook may just come naturally to you.

You already understand what a hook is; how much could a 'how to' book help you on this topic?

Anyway, that's my amateur advice, for what it's worth. The part about taking a complete break was professional advice given to me on my first novel. I know...you were only asking for a simple book review...lol.

 

[TxRad]

I haven't read the book either but there was a thread several years back by Rumpled Foreskin that was titled, "Happy Hooking" or some such that has a lot of good advise in it. I'll see if I can dig it up.

 

[PennLady]

Yeegads!

I haven't read the book of which you are referring. In fact, I've purposefully avoided formal instruction in the area of writing. I really am afraid of horking-up (technical term) my natural writing style.

I can see that, but I don't think it's so bad to read these books. After all, you don't have to do or adopt any of the the ideas they put forth. Sometimes it's been a pleasant surprise to find out that I'm already doing the recommended action.

In a way, though, this reminds me of an argument my son tried a couple of years ago. He didn't want guitar lessons because he didn't want it to "interfere" with the way he plays. Well, that's not right, of course, and although I'm all for experimenting, I still think it pays to have a grounding in the basics. There is a way to play a guitar, and once you know that, you can play with that knowledge.

It's not a perfect comparison to writing, naturally. Writing is more flexible, and there's no one "right" way to do it, although there do seem to be plenty of wrong ways.

This book, like I said, is not about style so much as it is about construction. And I don't think I agree with a lot of the guy's opinions on that. Now, he may be right in a general way, that publishers look for X Y Z and if you give them X Y Q, they'll stop and scratch their heads.

I think sometimes it's just best to read other fictional novels. Take a break, set your story aside for no less than 3 weeks and read other fictional works. Clear your head of this project. When you get back to your story, a hook may just come naturally to you.

You already understand what a hook is; how much could a 'how to' book help you on this topic?

Anyway, that's my amateur advice, for what it's worth. The part about taking a complete break was professional advice given to me on my first novel. I know...you were only asking for a simple book review...lol.

I'm also not looking for help in this book on writing a current story. This came about because of a completed story my publisher rejected, and in doing so, recommended this book. I'm not sold on the guy, obviously, and am a bit disappointed that she seems to be pushing me to make my story fit a formula, since formulae seem better for science than fiction writing.

The story had a hook, I thought, but she didn't like it. What can you do?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Everyone knows how to write cuz everyone has years of experiences with tv and cartoons and fairy tales and Bible stories (and your booze talking to you if youre TEX). What most lack is imagination and interesting experiences.

 

[TxRad]

http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=523433

http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=522360

I found two actually.

 

[TxRad]

Everyone knows how to write cuz everyone has years of experiences with tv and cartoons and fairy tales and Bible stories (and your booze talking to you if youre TEX). What most lack is imagination and interesting experiences.

As i have told you many times, I don't drink so quit trying to transfer your problems on to me.

An yes, people with good imaginations can write. It has nothing to do with the garbage you're spewing above. Experience has nothing to do with it if you have a good imagination. One of the best and top rated First Time stories on this site was written by a virgin.

By the way, have you ever gotten around to posting any stories here on Lit? Probably not but I thought I would ask.

 

[PennLady]

http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=523433

http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=522360

I found two actually.

Thanks.

 

[GimletEdge]

Zen in the Art of Writing (1989)

By Ray Bradbury, one of my favorite authors and a master of both short stories and novels. You being as prolific a writer as you are might find Bradbury a kindred spirit.

Zen in the Art of Writing is a collection of his essays on writing.

"On the occasion of his 80th birthday in August 2000, Bradbury said, 'The great fun in my life has been getting up every morning and rushing to the typewriter because some new idea has hit me.The feeling I have every day is very much the same as it was when I was twelve.In any event, here I am, eighty years old, feeling no different, full of a great sense of joy, and glad for the long life that has been allowed me.I have good plans for the next ten or twenty years, and I hope you'll come along.'"

Here" a little clip by him on his experience as a writer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlYAhSffEDM

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

As i have told you many times, I don't drink so quit trying to transfer your problems on to me.

An yes, people with good imaginations can write. It has nothing to do with the garbage you're spewing above. Experience has nothing to do with it if you have a good imagination. One of the best and top rated First Time stories on this site was written by a virgin.

By the way, have you ever gotten around to posting any stories here on Lit? Probably not but I thought I would ask.

My stories would feel like lonely lil petunias in an onion patch, here.

 

[alwayswantedto]

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