Looking for Feedback

[Angeline]

This is true. It also may provide some insight into my weirdness, but that's neither here nor there. I added definitions for the Yiddish terms for those who need them. I want to submit it for publication, so any feedback (general or any that will help me tighten it up) is much appreciated:

Frogday Morning

When I was six they called me their Moschekapoyer*
with but not of them contrary to their conformity
sinistral dark to their suburban light outside and inward
a spectacle of different embracing books and solitude

Once upon a nightmare of heavy rain I woke on the divan
wet I hid in shame's way a big girl hearing the sluicing
in the morning lawn chairs were blown sideways tossed
like discarded tops the pool sparkled bobbing with frogs

Old men sagged bony frail in yarmulkes ringing the concrete
they waged war in madras shorts black socks and sandals
brandishing nets arguing technique they pressed and jostled
yeshiva** boys again freed from pilpul*** and years free again

On some grassy bank of imagination some river near Lodz
or Riga "Oh you missed him! You got to hold the net straight!"
while Tessa and I stared at the spectacle of grandfathers
shouting and tossing frogs that hopped across neon lawns


Moschekapoyer*--character from Eastern European Jewish folk tales; he was "contrary." Whatever you did, he did the opposite just to be different.

yeshiva**--school

pilpul*** --a type of scholarly debate practiced by learned Jews, where various Hebrew texts are used to argue arcane points of Jewish law. Taught to schoolboys in traditional Eastern European communities.

 

[Kate.E]

I think it's really really really really really really really really good.

 

[Angeline]

Kate E. said

I think it's really really really really really really really really good.

I love you, too.

Platonically, Lauren. Platonically.

Thanks Kate.

 

[Blue Dolphin]

Kate E. said

I think it's really really really really really really really really good.

I love you, too.

Platonically, Lauren. Platonically.

Thanks Kate.

Hey
I like it too, an I luvs ya ange
hugssssssssssssssssssssss

 

[Angeline]

Blue Dolphin said
Hey
I like it too, an I luvs ya ange
hugssssssssssssssssssssss


Thanks BD and back atcha.

 

[Cordelia]

Awesome poem, Ang.

But I felt the first stanza didn't have the wonderful imagery that the rest of the poem has. Starting the second stanza, and onto the end, you had me gasping in delight.

I re-read the whole thing a few times, and just became slightly bewildered at how that first stanza fit in with the rest. May I suggest you either re-write it? or come up with a segue of some sort? I would suggest a re-write, but I am not exactly sure what you are trying to say, and I don't want to presume.

Those last three stanzas, however..... wow.

I am humbled.



Cordelia

 

[WickedEve]

Yes, it's an excellent poem. And I've read it, at least, a half dozen times, but after Cordelia's comment I have to agree about the first stanza. Honestly, I think the poem would be spectacular if you just dropped that stanza and saved it for another poem... unless I'm missing the significance of it.

 

[Angeline]

The first stanza

Cordie and Eve, thank you both for the comments. I've been debating with myself (the beauty of being a gemini ) dropping that stanza all day. I woke up this morning with that memory and you know how it is--you start writing thinking you're going one place and you wind up another? And I like that stanza, lol, but maybe it belongs with another poem...


On one hand I think it provides a context--jagged yes, but an intro nonetheless. Also I don't want to start the poem with "Once upon a nightmare," cause I think that sounds trite.

Maybe there's another way--a rewrite or segue. I have to think it through.

And thanks guys---praise is great, but I need critique!

 

[Lauren Hynde]

I've already talked about this with Ange, but since these feedback threads are for the benefit of all of us and not only of the person asking for feedback, I'll post it here anyway.

I liked the poem. It has a really good quality about it, this nostalgia (more than nostalgia, really: saudade)--kind of lulls you while you read. I had to read every line two or three times, before I could advance. Missed some punctuation, I guess. Of course it also slows down the whole process, which works for that lulling feeling, so...

There are pros and cons to the puntuation, and I think Ange made this option aware of this, and it does work.

As for the first stanza, I'm not so sure she should drop it. Yes, it's a different record from the rest, it doesn't exactly fit, but I like the jagged effect it has on the whole of the poem. Almost works like an explainatory note hovering above the other three stanzas, contextualizing the dreamlike landscape of the poem, anchoring it.

It all depends on what is your personal style. I happen to like these jagged cuts and seemingly inexplicable details, but not everyone's a Lynch fan...

And 'Once upon a nightmare' is a great line, but if it was the opening line of the poem, i wouldn't be so fond of it. As is now, it's just disconcerting enough to work, but weren't for the first stanza, it would scream triteness.

 

[Kate.E]

see

 

[karmadog]

Ange, I was going to PM you this, but the debate is so interesting, I thought I'd post it.

First, I think this is the best line in the thing:

Old men sagged bony frail in yarmulkes ringing the concrete
they waged war in madras shorts black socks and sandals


That image works on so many levels. Funny, poignant. It's all that and more. You've shown what an incisive eye you have.

I also like the way you used yiddish in this poem. I don't think you should define your terms. While I certainly appreciate it, and it may (or may not) add another level, it also... Well, let me say this instead. Umberto Eco was asked about all of the Latin he used in "The Name of the Rose", and how so few readers would be able to understand it. Eco, bless him, said, I didn't write it so that people would understand the Latin, I felt that the Latin would be a melody or a tune. It isn't necessarily to be understood.

I paraphrased that in a big way, but I hope my point makes some kind of sense.

Now, as far as that contentious first stanza goes, you can't take it out. It is important to the rest of the poem, I think. I don't particularly like the phrase 'sinistral dark', I think you could edit the whole first stanza, but I don't think it should go. It's all about the context, baby.

Great poem.

 

[Angeline]

I'm so sinistral

Thanks, Lauren and Kdog (and uh Kate again because, well because you minx).

Ok. Lauren and I pretty much see eye to eye on this poem--we discussed it last night and found ourselves (as we often do) not only seeing things the same way, but actually using the same terms to describe how we feel. (Except of course that sometimes Lauren has better words because she has a better vocabulary than me, goddamnit). Besides if we *don't* agree, we prefer to screech at each other on Yahoo and present a united public front, right Lauren? lol.

Anyway.

kdog made two new points.

1. Definitions of Yiddish terms--I only did that for here (and I should have told you that) to make it easier for potential reviewers. In truth the only term that isn't made clear by context is "yeshiva," and that's a fairly well-known one, I think. Pilpul is pretty arcane (unless you read Chaim Potok, whom I adore), but all you really need to know is that it's something from which boys "were freed." So no, no definitions in the final form.

2. The phrase "sinistral dark" is maybe not great. This is tricky to me because I often find myself putting sort of "secret messages" to me in what I write because, well, it amuses me and because I'm an oddball. (Does anyone else do this? I know OT does cause we talked about it once. lol. I just outted OT as a secret word user.)

Sinistral means left-handed, which I am, and I have dark hair and eyes--on both these counts the only one thus in my immediate family. I look like my great grandparents--a schtetl throwback. So it was a way of establishing difference, albeit for me alone, haha.

Again, thanks guys. You really helped me think this through. I found this great site, which lists links to all the best literary journals and small presses that focus on poetry. Next step is to figure out who might accept it!

 

[Angeline]

Old Men

kdog said:

Ange, I was going to PM you this, but the debate is so interesting, I thought I'd post it.

First, I think this is the best line in the thing:

Old men sagged bony frail in yarmulkes ringing the concrete
they waged war in madras shorts black socks and sandals

I forgot, I wanted to mention that I got the idea for that from a set of lines from a poem I love, Sailing to Byzantium by William Butler Yeats.


An aged man is but a paltry thing,
A tattered coat upon a stick, unless
Soul clap its hands and sing, and louder sing
For every tatter in its mortal dress,

Isn't that a beautiful and bittersweet way to describe an old man? I tell you, there's really nothing new under the sun. And that's also a good reason why writers should be readers, IMHO.

 

[OT]

Punctuation in poems is oft times over rated but in this piece the (lack of) punctuation really threw me off. By the time I finished puzzling over the first stanza, I wasn't in the proper mood to appreciate the rest of the poem (where the lack of punctuation was not as confusing, but now with soured mood, I noticed it -- which is never a good thing )

On the subject of keeping the first stanza ... I weigh in on the side of keeping it. I like how it sets the scene and the mood of the piece. I've no real suggestions on how to "fix it". In a warped sort of way, I like it. (I suspect that simply adding punctuation would ruin the unique flavor )

This line just doesn't feel right:
"jostled yeshiva boys again freed from pilpul and years free again"
I sort of like the repetition, but am not sure.
Can you drop the trailing "free again" ? Or maybe the first "again"? Should "freed" be free?
Dunno -- no big deal (maybe just sour mood punctuation hangover)

Should "neon lawns" be plural?

Lastly, lest you think otherwise ... I liked it.

 

[Angeline]

Thanks OT

Punctuation in poems is oft times over rated but in this piece the (lack of) punctuation really threw me off. By the time I finished puzzling over the first stanza, I wasn't in the proper mood to appreciate the rest of the poem (where the lack of punctuation was not as confusing, but now with soured mood, I noticed it -- which is never a good thing )

Punctuation stays out--I've been doing a lot of poem reading these past few days, and I can find similar examples that do not use any. This confirms my feeling that I'm not the only one to think punctuation both clarifies and confines. I'd rather let the reader work and have a choice of intepretations. If they don't want to read it, that's ok.

"jostled yeshiva boys again freed from pilpul and years free again"
I sort of like the repetition, but am not sure.
Can you drop the trailing "free again" ? Or maybe the first "again"? Should "freed" be free?

I think I need to keep the repetition and keep it on that line, again because it gives the reader a few ways to go with interpretation, which here is a good thing.

I don't however want to change the first "freed" to "free" beccause while "free" suggests "not with" to me "freed" gives more of a sense of "released from," which is precisely what I mean.

Should "neon lawns" be plural?

I'm not sure. This incident took place at a small apartment complex near Miami. The complex had a ring of pink (hey it's Florida ) stucco buildings surrounding a courtyard. The pool was in the center of the grass-covered courtyard, so I think it should be singular.


Gracias!

 

[Guest]

Angeline,

I disagree with the remarks about excluding the first stanza.
Why did you include it in the first place? It makes me wonder what Irving Berlin was up against with this introductory stanza.

The sun is shining
The grass is green
The orange and palm trees sway.
I've never seen such a day
In Beverly Hills LA.
But it's December the 24th
And I am longing to be up North.


WHITE CHRISTMAS, 1942

Follow your heart,

 

[JUDO]

Blew by it in the first read. This time, I'm not.

Frogday Morning

I'd like "Moshekapoyer" much better as a title. It's a poem of suburban Jewish life -- an experience of that childhood. The title should set it up.

When I was six they called me their Moschekapoyer*
with but not of them contrary to their conformity

The start of that second line -- What the f**k! "with but not..." I'm lost! How about: But none of them contrary to their comformity

sinistral dark to their suburban light outside and inward
a spectacle of different embracing books and solitude

I don't see the "dark." How about: secretive beyond the suburban light outside bent inward
a spectacle difference, embracing parchment and solitude

Once upon a nightmare of heavy rain I woke on the divan

"sinistral, dark, nightmare" What is this? Poe? How about: A week's end of heavy rain, awakened me from a dream on the divan

wet I hid in shame's way a big girl hearing the sluicing
in the morning lawn chairs were blown sideways tossed

Trim this -- Like: Wet, hidden from shame's way a big girl heard the sluicing of morning lawn chairs blown sideways

like discarded tops the pool sparkled bobbing with frogs

I like "Lawnchairs like discarded "boats" instead.

Old men sagged bony frail in yarmulkes ringing the concrete

"charging" the concrete

they waged war in madras shorts black socks and sandals
brandishing nets arguing technique they pressed and jostled
yeshiva** boys again freed from pilpul*** and years free again

Marvelous, but...

"after" years free again.

On some grassy bank of imagination some river near Lodz

Lose a "some."

or Riga "Oh you missed him! You got to hold the net straight!"

Lose the "or Riga" --you know where they are.

while Tessa and I stared at the spectacle of grandfathers
shouting and tossing frogs that hopped across neon lawns

"Neon" doesn't fit. What's that word for illustrated texts, like Apochraphal works, or old parchment works in the Bible. Is it "Illuminated?"

How about "Illuminati" lawns?

My thoughts.
- Judo

----------------

Moeshkapoyer

When I was six they called me their Moschekapoyer
but none of them contrary to their conformity
secretive beyond the suburban light outside bent inward
a spectacle difference, embracing parchment and solitude

Once, a week's end of heavy rain, awakened me from a dream on the divan
Wet, hidden from shame's way a big girl heard the sluicing of morning lawn chairs blown sideways
like discarded boats the pool sparkled bobbing with frogs

Old men sagged bony frail in yarmulkes charging the concrete
they waged war in madras shorts black socks and sandals
brandishing nets arguing technique they pressed and jostled
yeshiva** boys again freed from pilpul*** after years free again

On some grassy bank of imagination a river near Lodz
while Tessa and I stared at the spectacle of grandfathers
shouting and tossing frogs that hopped across Illuminati lawns

 

[Senna Jawa]

Angeline, let me write this and that--nothing complete, nothing final about my comments. And don't give up on this poem!

You have the great scene in which grandpas are cleaning the swimming pool from frogs I've seen such frog postrain invasions in Florida. Try to provide the geographical location (even describe it, and possibly the neighborhood, in the intro part of the poem) and see what happens.

Anyway, I would build the poem around that one scene, cleanly, with no other moments (they may provide material for other poems. Or have separate parts in this poem: (1), (2), etc).

Composition: I feel that stanza 1 and stanza 2-4 are two separate poems (well, stanza 1 is only an idea at this moment).

Style: You have a topic which you know very well and which is dear to you. Trust it, make it your only foundation. Instead, you are relying on superficial phrases, on "poetic technique". Your technique can only support your poem but it cannot make your poem, it cannot add to the poem. When it tries then it then it replaces the poetry, it goes against the poem.

Also, you are pushing it too much, taking too much chances, risking that readers will not be able to parse your lines. Yes, I can parse them, I am trained in it. But my first reaction is disbelieve. I have to read them twice. (Occasionally lines hard to parse may be used as artistic means. I don't see it working this way here, in your poem. I don't see any rationale to it here. On the other hand, do not solve the problem by introducing punctuation--what is good for a legal or business document is not necessarily good enough for poetry).

No punctuation is nice .   I don't know, one way or another, about starting each stanza with an upper case letter. However three "O"-s after a "W" make a pleasing impression.

BTW, in my opinion Judo made mostly valid critical points but her cure is worse than the disease.

Stanza 1: Instead of writing "they" it would be nicer and warmer to say "relatives". The "mysterious" introduction of characters via pronouns is badly abused in poetry.

"contrary to their uniformity" is talk, an abstract talk. "uniformity" is especially unpoetic. And unsympathetic. Don't judge anybody. Provide nothing but images, scenes. "contrary" is bad too.

Instead, you could spent the first two lines to illustrate the situation. Then you would mention that relatives called the lirical subject (LS) "Moschekapoyer".

"I was six" is not a poetic way to present a child--it is a statistical style of demographic surveys.

The voice of the phrase "when I was six" is different from the voice of the rest of the poem.

"a spectacle"? No.

"of different" -- that's not poetry.

"embracing" is talk

"solitude"? Ugh! Uck!

Angeline, you are trying to say in this stanza too much. Whatever you say, say it poetically or not at all.

Stanza 2: Does the voice of "Once upon" belong to this poem?

It is very possible that I don't understand the first and a half of the second line of this stanza. Would you explain it to me in plain English before I comment on them further? (I can risk looking silly but it would be too much of a distraction and detour).

Stanza 3: Is "they" from line 2 necessary? "Waged war" is talk again. Sure, it is not literal talk but still talk. Keep it pure. "war" here is an abstraction anyway, a summary of what you are about to show. No need for summaries.

I would prefer tiny fragments of the conversation in place of the declaration about "arguing technique".

The last line is hard to parse, especially "and years" is the culprit.

Stanza 4: I dislike "On some"   &   "of imagination". (Word "some" can be removed).

You see?! You do quote from the exchange between grandpas! Get rid of that "arguing technique" from the previous stanza.

Who is Tessa? You need to say something about her (him?), something like: while my older cousin Tessa and me.

Again that word "spectacle". Stop talking--it is enough to show!

Please, Angeline, don't get discouraged by my remarks. Just give up on colorful beads of plastic and grow the perl, let it be big.

I also would like to thank you for writing very kindly about my recently posted 4 poems. I am also grateful to Cordelia for mentioning my "orio" so nicely. Hm, I should thank her in the "new poems" thread. I am not active on Literotica for some time. I don't know why, or I do but it has nothing to do with Literotica.

Best regards,

 

[Somme]

Almost forgetting my manners...just you keep the ink on your fingers! I, for one, am proud of you.

 

[Angeline]

Faint with Feedback

I came onto the board this morning and saw all this feedback and well--I passed out for a bit, but I'm ok now . Actually, I'm touched that you have all been so helpful. You all are wonderful. The family members I've never met.

First off, Senna it's great to see you! (Now, that's evolution, huh? ). Your review is just terrific. More specific comments follow, but I wanted to thank you especially for your point about my skating on "poetic technique." You're right. I've become very good at it, and it is a crutch that I need to lose. I'm glad you saw it. I would not have otherwise.

SP, my friend. I want that first stanza, but you (and everyone else who commented) are right. It is very problematic. I know there are two things I am trying to say there:

1. I'm Jewish as they all were.

2. I felt like I didn't fit.

Now how that fits with the grandfathers and the frogs I'm not sure and that is the crux of it. Senna and JUDO have suggestions that will help or at least get me started thinking in the right direction.

Ok. Here Senna is the story that will put those unclear lines in context. We were very poor then and my family could not afford to stay together for a while, so my mom and I went to FL while dad and sister stayed up north. I don't remember a lot, but I know I was traumatized by the separation. One of the results of that was that night.

Once upon a nightmare of heavy rain I woke on the divan
wet I hid in shame's way a big girl hearing the sluicing

There was a big storm. I remember the way the palm trees looked, bending --(use that, I hear Senna saying ). My grandparents had made me a bed on the divan in the living room. I woke up in the middle of the night and had wet the bed (I was 6, lol, this ain't recent history). I was very ashamed, thinking of the way they would look at me--what they might say. But of course no one said anything because of the frogs, which overruled all other family events.

[I want the poetic bravery award for this admission, lol.]

Tessa was the only other young person in the apartment complex. A she by the way.

JUDO, thank you gf! You parse a poem like nobody's business. Here are a few specific responses:

1. The "tops" metaphor--I like the word "tops" because it suggests spinning. What I really need is a word that describes turning end over end because that is what those lightweight chairs would do in storms, but I can't think of the precise one. Anyone got an idea?

2. The "neon" lawn--maybe it was Florida or maybe it was the grass they used, but it looked too bright to me--unnatural, which is why I went for "neon" as opposed to something that suggests "glow." "Glow" isn't strong enough.

3. Charged vs Ringed--When I walked outside, the men were standing around the pool, so if there was a charge, I didn't see it. I think that would be uncharacteristic for these guys anyway--they were definitely more the walk slow and argue alot type, lol.

And Somme. You are my dear friend. Thank you for your kind words. Believe it or not, this is how these yo-yo's show they care. It's a good thing and I know it.

By the way, I checked the name in stanza 1 with the Center for Yiddish studies at Columbia U. It's Moyshe Kapoyer. And "kapoyer" means "backwards," which I had transliterated in my head to "unique." hahaha. The ego is a wonderful thing, eh?

I am schlepping (to keep with the vernacular) back to the drawing board. Be back in a day or two with revisions. I am very grateful for the help.

P.S. Kdog, did you get my pm where I said I need a poem "workshop"? Lol. I just had one!

P.S.S. For a short poem, this is beginning to feel like War and Peace.

 

[OT]

just a quick note on this line:

"ringing the concrete
they waged war in madras shorts black socks and sandals"

I thought "ringing" was a reference to the slapping of sandals on the wet surface around the pool. A distinctive "ringing" sound to it.


Ya put words out there, and readers will warp them in strange and mysterious ways.

 

[Angeline]

Well yeah

Ya put words out there, and readers will warp them in strange and mysterious ways.

I sometimes wonder if I ever get what a poet really mean...

and I rather like your interpretation

 

[Senna Jawa]

Re: Faint with Feedback

  Once upon a nightmare of heavy rain I woke on the divan
  wet I hid in shame's way a big girl hearing the sluicing

There was a big storm. I remember the way the palm trees looked, bending --(use that, I hear Senna saying ). My grandparents had made me a bed on the divan in the living room. I woke up in the middle of the night and had wet the bed (I was 6, lol, this ain't recent history). I was very ashamed, thinking of the way they would look at me--what they might say. But of course no one said anything because of the frogs, which overruled all other family events.

[I want the poetic bravery award for this admission, lol.]

I understood your poem perfectly but I didn't dare to state my understanding. No bravery award for me!

Now I can comment more about stanza 2. Let's see your variations first.

So, it was Florida, perhaps South of Palm Beach, in the Palm Beach-Boca Raton-Fort Lauderdale-Miami area.

Well kept grass right after a heavy rain, especially when illuminated at night, but even in the morning, to a child fresh from her sleep, may have a neon shine to it.

I've written a poem (in Polish) which features dead frogs in a swimming pool (my poem is very different than yours otherwise), in Florida, after a rain. It was dated 2001-05-28/29, and there were frogs in that swimming pool weeks earlier that year too. Thus you are safe to place the action of your poem in spring.

Angeline, did you call me yo-yo?

Regards,

 

[Senna Jawa]

Re: Faint with Feedback

First off, Senna it's great to see you! (Now, that's evolution, huh? ).

Ev...? Shock!

[...]skating on "poetic technique." [...]it is a crutch[...]

The less technique a poet has the more s/he relies on it!!!

Hey, guys, don't skate on a crutch .

Regards,

 

[Angeline]

Skating and Evolution

It was Hollywood, between Fort Lauderdale and Miami. At the time it was a fairly quiet suburban community by the beach.

Ev...? Shock!

Yeah, for me too.

Hey, guys, don't skate on a crutch

Mercifully, winter is just about over, so unnecessary (I don't rollar skate anymore).

Angeline, did you call me yo-yo?

Well, yes, but with great affection. I like yo-yos.