Listen Up! a.k.a. Is there something I'm missing?

[TheBlackDahlia]

As a reaction to some recent threads, as well as witnessing experiences of those I know, I have decided to post this. Keep in mind, this is only my opinion:

I understand what is involved in this lifestyle, I'm relatively new to it myself. I can imagine how good it feels for you subs to let your master have their way with you and how much it means to you to keep them satisfied. Understand that I'm not bashing anyone here, or their lifestyle. However, I do believe that there is a fine line between giving your master control and just simply putting up with whatever the hell they want to do with you, no matter how much you hate it.

In my opinion, it should be about building trust on both sides, not just them trusting that you'll follow their every order. Hell, were I that side, I'd have to have ABSOLUTE trust in him that he would never hurt me badly or cause me any kind of serious stress or discomfort. Yes, that does mean any sort of sexual act that I'm not comfortable with, he'd better either try introduce me to it slowly and gently or just accept the fact that I don't like it and not make me feel like shit over it.

Yes, it's a relationship that is out of the norm, but it's a relationship none-the-less. That means you must love and respect each other. No means no, and I don't care if one is allowed to have more power than the other, when they strongly don't agree to something, you listen. If you don't, the next step over from that is rape or abuse. From what I've seen, it is possible to get too carried away with this lifestyle.

Subs, love should not be about taking the other's bullshit. Once again, no means no, and if they don't listen, leave their ass.

And for God's sake, doms, if you are just in this for your own selfish pleasure and couldn't care less about your sub's well being or comfort, then either you have a lot more to learn, or you should not be involved in this. I swear, some of you are even more sensitive than they are.

Is there something that I'm not getting here, or am I making sense to anyone?

(yes my writing might be a little weird at the moment, but whatever. I'm expressing an opinion, not writing a novel)

 

[A Desert Rose]

I think you've made some very broad generalizations about relationships that are very individual and unique to the participants involved. No M/s or D/s relationship is going to be like the next.

Preaching to people about how and what they should or should not be doing
(Subs, love should not be about taking the other's bullshit. Once again, no means no, and if they don't listen, leave their ass) has little impact on individuals and how they conduct themselves in a relationship.

Like you said, you're new to the lifestyle. Like me and most others here, you still have lots to learn. ;-)

 

[intothewoods]

I totally hear what you're saying. People are often drawn to this lifestyle because there is a huge gaping hole in their lives. I see a lot of Doms, for example, who feel emasculated and have no control over their lives, no power, and so they find power and control as a Master. The thing is, you can't expect D/s to fix the rest of your life. It won't.

And, you know, my usual disclaimer that I am still new to this. But that's been my observation so far.

 

[catalina_francisco]

You are entitled to your opinion but I get the feeling it is a gut reaction based on your personal preferences without considering the intricacies and acknowledged responsibilities of all involved from an informed positon. For instance, I live a 24/7 no limits M/s relationship (and I suspect some of the comments you refer to come from posts I have made). For us that means I have given up my right to make limits and that it was done responsibly and with a lot of talking from him advising me to take more time to think about what I was doing and what it meant. It was the relationship I set out to find, refused to settle for anything less, and fight hard to keep working the way we want it to work.

If I had wanted a relationship that to me would seem to be role play or a game whereby I could decide when and where I would abide by the agreement I made, I would not have bothered with D/s and would have remained mainstream, or at the most remained a submissive with limits and the right to leave. I didn't and don't want that but don't mistake it as not knowing my own mind, or being weak, or not having the intelligence to choose this for myself, or simply wrong because it is not your cup of tea. I am 49, I have lived a full life mostly controlled by me and through some very difficult times others chose to give up on fighting against, I have a degree, I am considered more on the radical end of feminism, and I am considered by most who know me (intellectuals as well) to be highly intelligent with a bagful of common sense and self knowledge.

Just because it isn't right for eveyone doesn't make it wrong for me or those who choose to live this way. I advise others thinking of entering such a relationship to think hard because it isn't something you can just walk away from when the going gets tough, though there is a perception out there by many that it should be....to me I always think then what is the point, may as well remain mainstream with kink on the side to keep things fun.

Just because I have an Owner who gives me some fairly big challenges doesn't mean he disregards my health and well being, though sometimes I have thought and told him he does...reality is he shows me time and again that it is me who has failed to see the final result and that by pushing me hard in the way he has that he has helped me grow and evelop more in 5 years than I did in the 44 years prior to our coming together. What I have learned is that it is not wise to discuss all of our relationship openly because many do not relate to or understand it, but more importantly it is not about whether anyone else approves and thinks we are doing it right by Guide Book 101, it is about whether we are doing it right by our own standards, needs and desires. Of course you are shocked or don't feel it sane at times, because it is not what you yourself want or desire, but that doesn't mean it is not right for me, or osg, or many others who choose and are happy living as a slave. As I said to a friend (mainstream who has no idea of our type relationship) last week, when I look at my life today compared to 10 years ago, I know I have it good and have had a lot of the real worries which stressed my life year in and year out, removed, all by him and the lifestyle I chose to live. As to love, I have it in truckloads and to the point that most people who know us remark on the depth of love we share, regularly, and without our soliciting their view or going out of our way to act any other way than we do day to day when alone.

Catalina

 

[Chicklet]

In my opinion, it should be about building trust on both sides, not just them trusting that you'll follow their every order. Hell, were I that side, I'd have to have ABSOLUTE trust in him that he would never hurt me badly or cause me any kind of serious stress or discomfort. Yes, that does mean any sort of sexual act that I'm not comfortable with, he'd better either try introduce me to it slowly and gently or just accept the fact that I don't like it and not make me feel like shit over it.

*in your opinion*

It's my opinion, too, and so *I* would never put myself in one of those relationships. Everyone else gets to make their own choices.

Stick with what you believe for yourself, but I suggest not stressing too much about other people's life choices when they don't match yours.

 

[LadyAria]

"omg, why would u want to beat your lover?"
"How horrible it would be to be tied down and not move! I have to be able to touch my lover."
"I love the feeling of being tightly bound, straining against the rope and antipating(sic) his touch."
"If my girl ever talked to me like that, then I'd bitch slap her!"
"Humiliation is a key part of foreplay for me."
"Ewww, but you eat poop!"
"I'd never let someone piss on me. SICK! SICK!"
"...warm streams of yellow gold splashing in my face. I love to see her legs spread over me squatting on my face."
"A woman should know her place."
"Men are inferior because they cannot bring life into this world."
"There is nothing in the world like a tight ass around your cock."
"I don't get women that are into anal sex. They are just doing it to make a man happy."
"There is nothing in the world like feel him deep inside my arse."

Welcome to human nature. I don't think we are suppose to get it.

 

[intothewoods]

Hmm, well, fwiw, I don't think twice about you and F, cat, because even if it isn't what I want or need in my life, it seems to work for you. As far as I've observed, you give off a vibe of self confidence. You seem content.

On this board, I raise my eyebrow when I see people who are constantly upset, or fearful of their PYL, or confused by their PYL or complaining baout their PYL. If you have to keep struggling to make it work, well, just my opinion, but that should tell you something.

 

[CutieMouse]

*****

 

[A Desert Rose]

... Just because it isn't right for eveyone doesn't make it wrong for me...
Catalina

Sig line material.

 

[Shankara20]

I have been in "the lifestyle" for over 12 years. I lived with a Professional Domme in San Francisco as a sub. I am no longer subbing and consider myself a Top more then a Dom. Never never never has any of my relationships looked like total control relationship - nor does the term "Master" fit for me. I consider myself a "player" - BDSM MUST be part of any "lover" relationship I am in, but I will not have a total control relationship. I know some do, and have founds ways it works for all people involved. This "lifestyle" has a wide spectrum of relationships.

I work as an educator for a sexual assault center. I deal with rape and abuse issues every day and fully understand "No means No!" - at times I struggle to not make judgments about the very few posts I see here that I fear might be indicators of real abusive and I love the way this community is full of caring individuals that are fast to offer support and advice to someone at risk.

Clear communications, trust, education, established and respected boundaries are a must in this lifestyle.

I am moved by your concern. I wonder what it was that set this off for you over this issue and hope you can see how wide the variety of relationships we have here is. Please ask more information of us, we love to talk about our own lives.

Oh, by the way, if someone here is being abusive they will not stay long. We have a few jerks, and few bitches, some asshats that all add to the flavor of the place - but abusers will be turned out. There are ways to report abuse to moderators without risking to problems of posting screen names in threads.

 

[NALA CAYENNE]

I am new to this lifestyle also but am very happy with the relationship that I have with my Dom. I am a total submissive to him and I give myself totally to him because I trust him implicitly with the decisions he makes for me. I also trust that he won't do anything to hurt me or allow anything, along as it is within his power, to hurt me.

While I do give him total control over several aspects of my life, he also allows me to voice my opinion, ask questions and tell him how I feel about things going on between us or about tasks he assigns me. There is no abuse in our relationship nor do I feel that he takes my submission for granted- quite the opposite. He has told me on many an occasion that one of his jobs as my Dom is to protect me- including protecting me from myself.

I have friends that don't understand my relationship with or my choice to have a Dom and there are folks here that don't understand the depth of my feelings for my Dom and to what measures I'll go to please him. As he and I have discussed on several occasions- our relationship is about us. No one can clearly dictate or understand any aspect of our relationship and it is not for anyone else to do so.

He and I have an understanding on everything that goes on between us from what he will accept and I will do to what he will call me and I call him. The only thing that truly matters is that we are happy with each other and that we trust each other.

 

[ecstaticsub]

I fully understand that every relationship is different, and everyone has a right to be in the kind of relationship that they choose to be in.

I could not be in a M/s relationship. I will admit that after reading some posts from some people I don't understand how they could be in the relationship that they are. It does sound abusive to me. I also have seen enough relationships where the woman puts up with the abuse because of financial reasons, or embarrassment, or fear of being on their own.

I ask with all seriousness--how do we tell the difference? WHen I see a post like that I just keep quiet and tell myself--she (or he) is happy it is what they want, it's their life. But for those of you who have been on this board forever or been out in the BDSM community how do you tell the difference between a strict M/s relationship and abuse? ANd if you suspet abuse what do you do about it?

Please, I don't mean to offend anyone. I just would hate to see someone really get harmed or be in a true abusive relationship and I ignore their veiled cries for help because I was trying to respect their relationship choice.

 

[Evil_Geoff]

Yes, it's a relationship that is out of the norm, but it's a relationship none-the-less. That means you must love and respect each other. No means no, and I don't care if one is allowed to have more power than the other, when they strongly don't agree to something, you listen. If you don't, the next step over from that is rape or abuse. From what I've seen, it is possible to get too carried away with this lifestyle.

It's also possible to get too carried away with collecting Mr. Peanut memorabilia, working on cars, shopping, working in your yard, or scratching that little itch... yes, you know the one... THAT one!

And in my relationships, if, and that's a big IF, I want a romantic, love relationship, that's between me and my partner. If I want an employer/employee relationship without love, that's between me and my partner too. If I want someone just to serve me, I don't necessarily want them to love me, and I certainly am not going to love them. If they strongly disagree with something I want, they have the right to object. _I_ on the other hand, am under no obligation to bend to THEIR will or preference and change my mind. If I want it done or to do it, then can consent and obey, or they can refuse. I will not force them to do anything that is absolutely, totally, 100% against their values, their needs, their well-being.

But I am certainly within my rights to kick them to the curb for refusing to obey.

cat's style of relationship is not _my_ style of relationship. And my style of relationship is not Cutie's style of relationship. And CM's style isn't RJ's style and RJ's isn't Shank's... No matter what kind of M/s, D/s or powerexchange style of relationship we choose to have, what seperates abuse from SM or BDSM is consent. We are all adults, we all have choices to make. Choices can have consequences both positive and negative.

And again, I'll end with my quote in ADR's sig line:
There is a reason they are called submissives and their side of the equation is submission. They submit. If they don't, they aren't submissive then, are they? ~ Evil Geoff

 

[DeservingBitch]

This may be a tangent, but I think it is relevant:

I think that the bottom line here is the issue of consent (whether it is 'repeated' consent or some sort of 'meta-consent' given once). Now, from my experience working with victims of abuse (mostly rape and sexual abuse), consent is often a more complex and tricky notion than we tend to assume. Which is why, when doing education on abuse and rape, we often tell people that 'enthusiastic consent' should be the norm rather than mere 'consent' (this often comes up for instance when talking about date rape or abuse/rape within a relationship).

I wonder how this notion of 'enthusiastic consent' could be useful or translated within the BDSM community to discuss issues of abuse within a D/s or M/s relationship?

Any thoughts?

 

[ecstaticsub]

This may be a tangent, but I think it is relevant:

I think that the bottom line here is the issue of consent (whether it is 'repeated' consent or some sort of 'meta-consent' given once). Now, from my experience working with victims of abuse (mostly rape and sexual abuse), consent is often a more complex and tricky notion than we tend to assume. Which is why, when doing education on abuse and rape, we often tell people that 'enthusiastic consent' should be the norm rather than mere 'consent' (this often comes up for instance when talking about date rape or abuse/rape within a relationship).

I wonder how this notion of 'enthusiastic consent' could be useful or translated within the BDSM community to discuss issues of abuse within a D/s or M/s relationship?

Any thoughts?

Interesting point. However, there are things I am told to do that I don't really want to do, so I can't say I would be enthusiastically consenting to them, but I wouldn't consider them abuse either. Maybe "enthusiastic non-consent" or something similiar would be more useful????

 

[intothewoods]

I have been in "the lifestyle" for over 12 years. I lived with a Professional Domme in San Francisco as a sub. I am no longer subbing and consider myself a Top more then a Dom. Never never never has any of my relationships looked like total control relationship - nor does the term "Master" fit for me. I consider myself a "player" - BDSM MUST be part of any "lover" relationship I am in, but I will not have a total control relationship. I know some do, and have founds ways it works for all people involved. This "lifestyle" has a wide spectrum of relationships.

I work as an educator for a sexual assault center. I deal with rape and abuse issues every day and fully understand "No means No!" - at times I struggle to not make judgments about the very few posts I see here that I fear might be indicators of real abusive and I love the way this community is full of caring individuals that are fast to offer support and advice to someone at risk.

Clear communications, trust, education, established and respected boundaries are a must in this lifestyle.

I am moved by your concern. I wonder what it was that set this off for you over this issue and hope you can see how wide the variety of relationships we have here is. Please ask more information of us, we love to talk about our own lives.

Oh, by the way, if someone here is being abusive they will not stay long. We have a few jerks, and few bitches, some asshats that all add to the flavor of the place - but abusers will be turned out. There are ways to report abuse to moderators without risking to problems of posting screen names in threads.

Wonderful post, Papa Shank.

 

[Shankara20]

Which is why, when doing education on abuse and rape, we often tell people that 'enthusiastic consent' should be the norm rather than mere 'consent' (this often comes up for instance when talking about date rape or abuse/rape within a relationship).

Oh - I like that "enthusiastic consent" - I have just started my training and will be on the look out for that term here, and suggest this if it is not here already.

Thanks much....

 

[DeservingBitch]

Interesting point. However, there are things I am told to do that I don't really want to do, so I can't say I would be enthusiastically consenting to them, but I wouldn't consider them abuse either. Maybe "enthusiastic non-consent" or something similiar would be more useful????

Which is why I made the distinction between 'repeated' and 'meta-consent'. For someone in a D/s or M/s relationship, there is some 'meta-consent' to the terms of the relationship that is given at some point (ie, you consent to give up a power to your PYL). This is where the 'enthusiam' comes in. So, even if a specific task or decision doesn't please you or even greatly displease you, what matters is that you still 'enthusiastically consent' to this relationship.

 

[DeservingBitch]

Oh - I like that "enthusiastic consent" - I have just started my training and will be on the look out for that term here, and suggest this if it is not here already.

Thanks much....

You're welcome.

 

[TheBlackDahlia]

Wow, I really do have more to learn about this. I've had a few friends who tried and failed miserably to be a part of BDSM, a couple did actually lead to full on abuse. Those who are still invovled, I'm scared that they might be giving up too much control and are expected to do too much. Then again, these people are also young and need to learn more as well. If I am a part of it, I just want to be sure that I'm doing things correctly. I'd hate to make my sub uncomfortable. Thank you everyone for responding and giving me further insite.

 

[myinnerslut]

there are times when i read peoples accounts of thier relationships and think "is that safe" or "how can you do that" or "why would you put up with that". then i have to remember that what we read on lit is only part of the story. we all have life outside of the computer screen, and sometimes the things we type arnt the whole story. sometimes we type things with a bias due to emotion. sometimes we just dont have time to type out every part of the situation. even in real life there are things that are kept in our heads, and things kept behind closed doors. i guess what im saying is that we rarely know the entire story of someone relationship from what we observe on the sidelines, and so its tought to make accurate judgements.

 

[marieR19]

(To post, or not to post, that is the question?)

I very much agree with the OP. Of course.... I agree with it in certain situations only. What comes to mind are those posts from new-ish members (subs) who basically don't have much experience, and feel like they have to do whatever their Dom tells them to do. The posts that include "I hate it but He/She won't listen to my concerns" and the like. And likewise, the wannabe-Doms who don't seem to care about their subs or respect their limits.

Now take Catalina, for example... The relationship that she is a part of is a very, very foreign concept to me, and I admit that some of the things she posts do get a raised eyebrow from me. But it is very obvious that it is a safe, carefully-planned and devoted/commited relationship, and that makes all the difference there.



Heather

 

[catalina_francisco]

This may be a tangent, but I think it is relevant:

I think that the bottom line here is the issue of consent (whether it is 'repeated' consent or some sort of 'meta-consent' given once). Now, from my experience working with victims of abuse (mostly rape and sexual abuse), consent is often a more complex and tricky notion than we tend to assume. Which is why, when doing education on abuse and rape, we often tell people that 'enthusiastic consent' should be the norm rather than mere 'consent' (this often comes up for instance when talking about date rape or abuse/rape within a relationship).

I wonder how this notion of 'enthusiastic consent' could be useful or translated within the BDSM community to discuss issues of abuse within a D/s or M/s relationship?

Any thoughts?

As an abuse counsellor myself, any consent that is won through intimidation, coercion, attrition, force, fear, blackmail, or manipulation is highly questionable and where I begin to look more closely at whether it constitutes abuse. If I see it as abusive according to my criteria of abuse I try to remain respectful of all involved and open subtle opportunities for the possible abused to know I am aware of what abuse is (or how I see abuse), and if they feel the need, ask for help. If they do not ask, or they do not feel they are abused at that point, I try to respect their position and mind my own business while also letting them know I am there for them in any capacity and without fear of disclosure or my forcing my own beliefs/choices onto them. What I see as abuse, and what the abuse industry see as abuse, is not always abuse to others as we have all learned...to then push my own view onto another IMHO is being abusive as well.

As to how to give consent, I am not sure I go with the enthusiastic terminology as that conjures up a picture to me which can be enthusiastic but also highly motivated by many things which do not contain information, maturity, or freedom of will...sort of like the excited puppy picture. For me 'informed consent' is more my preference as it implies (and hopefully is the reality) that the person consenting is fully aware of what they are consenting to, possible outcomes both negative and positive, have given it serious thought beyond the 'ooooooo, that makes me so wet/turned on' phase, and are mature enough to assume the responsibility and commitment that goes with that consent. To me that is what most of us already promote as healthy on this forum.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

Which is why I made the distinction between 'repeated' and 'meta-consent'. For someone in a D/s or M/s relationship, there is some 'meta-consent' to the terms of the relationship that is given at some point (ie, you consent to give up a power to your PYL). This is where the 'enthusiam' comes in. So, even if a specific task or decision doesn't please you or even greatly displease you, what matters is that you still 'enthusiastically consent' to this relationship.

LOL, well I live a 'no limits' relationship and I'm afraid (and a little embarrassed to admit at times) I often do not appear enthusiastically consenting. The fantasy and ideal is that one can and will obey blindly with nothing but their Owner's pleasure and happiness in mind. I don't know about everyone else, but there are days when that is far from my thought waves and it is not so easy to just go there when ordered for any variety of reasons. Yes, I know, it is not how the stories and fantasies portray it, but it is reality unless you have an Owner who only asks of you those things you like and/or find a breeze and that is not what I entered this lifestyle to have...I need to be challenged even when I am kicking and screaming or trying to talk him out of his ideas...it keeps me alive.

Catalina

 

[alexanna]

At the risk of having my head bitten off I would say there are a lot of people out there, both bdsm and not, that seek out abusive relationships. I think I've also heard mention or acknowlegement that many people use bdsm as a way to re-experience past abuses. I've also heard Doms complain about subs who like to accuse them of abuse after the fact when they've done nothing that wasn't agreed upon because that sub may have in fact been looking to be abused whether she knew it or not and she wasn't going to settle for anything less. I'm sure there are also Doms that are very abusive even staying within the letter of an agreement and use the agreement as a shield.

Personally I think bdsm relationships reek of co-dependence and it wouldn't surprise me if there wasn't a higher rate of abuse among people who practice bdsm than those who don't because it is so attractive to people who want to both truly abuse someone and to truly be abused but for it to be "okay". Those people are most likely going to have bad relationships whether they practice bdsm or not.

I'm still trying to decide if co-dependence is inherently "bad" just because its a bad word in pop psychology. The co-dependence is one of the aspects I find the most attractive about the whole thing. Permission to be dependent again. But like my son will more likely than not grow up to blame me for everything bad in his life and spend thousands on therapy to undo the imagined damage I inflicted there are going to be Doms and subs that engage in abuse and subs who imagine abuse where there was none.

I'm very attracted to the Abuser\victim kink\collusion myself.