Line Crossed

[AlinaX]

We discuss non-con here a lot and I'm not looking to restart old arguments.

For me there is a line. I think it's a line I have myself crossed on occasion. There are one or two stories where you could have a go at me and accuse me of depicting casual rape without any moral consideration; I do often consider deleting these.

I get that everyone has the line in a different place, and that Lit's rule of the victim 'enjoying' the ordeal is problematical and too open to interpretation, but as someone who reads and writes in the category I see a lot of stories where the non-con is fundamental to the victim's pleasure.

I'm writing this because a recent non-con story has left me feeling distressed and I need to vent a little. It's a story that could be summed up as, "New employee is kidnapped and trafficked by her boss and is used as a hole along with other unseen girls, indefinitely and without reward."

Some readers are clearly into such things.

 

[Kasumi_Lee]

We discuss non-con here a lot and I'm not looking to restart old arguments.

For me there is a line. I think it's a line I have myself crossed on occasion. There are one or two stories where you could have a go at me and accuse me of depicting casual rape without any moral consideration; I do often consider deleting these.

I get that everyone has the line in a different place, and that Lit's rule of the victim 'enjoying' the ordeal is problematical and too open to interpretation, but as someone who reads and writes in the category I see a lot of stories where the non-con is fundamental to the victim's pleasure.

I'm writing this because a recent non-con story has left me feeling distressed and I need to vent a little. It's a story that could be summed up as, "New employee is kidnapped and trafficked by her boss and is used as a hole along with other unseen girls, indefinitely and without reward."

Some readers are clearly into such things.

I've written an awful lot of NC/R stories, and I've always put in certain restraints due to my own discomfort with the awful real-world nature of rape. For instance, I've always made sure that the victim gets wet and/or orgasms as a result long before finding out that Literotica's rules essentially require such a thing.

Your summary of that story is enough for me to feel uncomfortable already, and I write that as someone who's included sex slavery in a series. The mitigating factor in the case of my own series is that she escapes and has a happy ending, another mandatory requirement I impose on myself whenever I write NC/R stories.

 

[Bamagan]

We discuss non-con here a lot and I'm not looking to restart old arguments.

For me there is a line. I think it's a line I have myself crossed on occasion. There are one or two stories where you could have a go at me and accuse me of depicting casual rape without any moral consideration; I do often consider deleting these.

I get that everyone has the line in a different place, and that Lit's rule of the victim 'enjoying' the ordeal is problematical and too open to interpretation, but as someone who reads and writes in the category I see a lot of stories where the non-con is fundamental to the victim's pleasure.

I'm writing this because a recent non-con story has left me feeling distressed and I need to vent a little. It's a story that could be summed up as, "New employee is kidnapped and trafficked by her boss and is used as a hole along with other unseen girls, indefinitely and without reward."

Some readers are clearly into such things.

I think there's a noticeable distinction between what I would consider 'true' NC/R stories (for lack of a better word) and the stories that only present themselves as such.
In the former case, the author creates a character who enjoys powerlessness, complete domination, etc. and then constructs a scenario where the character's desires are fulfilled, against their will or their better judgement, even if (or perhaps especially if) a large part of their personality feels guilt or shame for the indulgence of a kink they kind of wish they didn't have. There's lots of potential for interesting 'victim' character arcs in such situations, and those stories are often written from the POV of the submissive, at least in part.
In the latter case, the author is usually writing from the dominant's perspective and the story is usually about exacting revenge or otherwise asserting mastery over the victim, and said victim's enjoyment might only be included in order to get past the gatekeeper. It often seems 'tacked on' in a sense, is frequently described in a perfunctory manner, or presented as a 'reward' for the victim, etc. These stories rarely have an arc for the victims other than 'free to slave' or something similar, and the dominant characters often have even less, probably because the author considers them to already be at an apex of some kind. In short, they're often pure power trips for people who are probably principally interested in their own gratification.
There's always the option to report a story that seems to cross the line from 'rape fantasy' to 'fantasizing about raping' if you think it slipped through when it shouldn't have.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

I personally am unhappy with NC/R. I wrote one or two as an experiment early on, bespoke stories for a couple where she had a rape fantasy. I was uncomfortable with how they made me feel and haven’t done any for quite some time. Nor have I ever enjoyed reading such, before or after writing them.

With that said, the Kinseys notebthat a surprising two-thirds of women surveyed have or have had fantasies of being dominated. I cannot believe that the majority of women actually want to be forced IRL, but it is clear that the audience for such fiction must include a lot of women. As with incest (which IRL is inevitably abusive), there is a clear difference between wishing for something and fantasizing about it.

 

[Kasumi_Lee]

I personally am unhappy with NC/R. I wrote one or two as an experiment early on, bespoke stories for a couple where she had a rape fantasy. I was uncomfortable with how they made me feel and haven’t done any for quite some time. Nor have I ever enjoyed reading such, before or after writing them.

With that said, the Kinseys notebthat a surprising two-thirds of women surveyed have or have had fantasies of being dominated. I cannot believe that the majority of women actually want to be forced IRL, but it is clear that the audience for such fiction must include a lot of women. As with incest (which IRL is inevitably abusive), there is a clear difference between wishing for something and fantasizing about it.

There's actually quite a lot of peer-reviewed surveys confirming similar results about women (and men) who have rape fantasies, mostly imagining themselves on the receiving end. It depends on how you phrase the question, though, because it turns out that a lot more people are comfortable admitting to "forced sex" fantasies than "rape" fantasies.

 

[mildlyaroused]

Maybe I am being blissfully ignorant, but I like to think that the most morally void NC/R stories are pure fantasy, and don't reflect on anyone character-wise (generally speaking, because there are always weirdos out there). I mean, NC/R is not so different from I/T stories in the sense that the real-world versions of these kinks are usually terrible, abusive affairs. In the right mood, I could get into most morally dubious fantasies - as fantasies.

Now, I'll fully admit that I am generally against reader protection (or whatever you want to call it). As long as extreme topics are clearly forewarned, I think it's up to readers not to offend themselves. But I'm also a hypocrite. Because I wouldn't expand this sentiment to, say, child abuse, which imo shouldn't be written in the first place... so it's certainly complex!

 

[StillStunned]

Baaed on past relationships, I've generally assumed that "rape fantasy" is shorthand for "let the man do all the work".

 

[SimonDoom]

In theory, I don't have any lines, because I draw a clear distinction between reality and fantasy, and once I've entered the fantasy world, anything goes. In practice, it's a little more complicated. I've worked for a long time on a nonconsent story in which a woman is subject to a nonconsent situation, and it's difficult for me to write scenarios in which she, to at least some degree, derives real sexual pleasure from her plight and to do it with sufficient plausibility. I guess the line for me is I don't want to lose myself as a reader and think, "This is just rubbish." If I can satisfy myself as a reader, then I'm fine with it. I find it more difficult, though, to navigate in this category than in others.

 

[TheLobster]

Baaed on past relationships, I've generally assumed that "rape fantasy" is shorthand for "let the man do all the work".

There is (also?) a generous helping of “I’m so sexy, men just can’t help themselves!” type of fantasy there.

 

[Bettytheboo]

If the author warns the potential reader who maybe offended by such a story, that's fine. Why should my enjoyment be spoilt if the reader becomes offended after that warning has been posted? I like a nice spicy curry, why should my enjoyment be taken off the menu just because others don't? It's a real world out there are there are no crashmats or padded pillars.

 

[Erozetta]

Baaed on past relationships, I've generally assumed that "rape fantasy" is shorthand for "let the man do all the work".

I believe it's often more about evoking the endorphins of a fear response. In my experience, such fantasies typically need to involve both trust and a sense that they may not know this person as well as they thought.

Like, I could act such a scene out with my husband but it would have almost no additional sexual effect on me because I simply *know* he will not hurt me. There is zero danger with him, not even an inkling of fear.

Someone where I can take a step back and question or think, "I trust them. They won't actually hurt me... right?" and have that question answered without certainty will have a greater effect on me during the scene.

Without a blend of fear and trust, there's no controlled high to experience.

But it's also one of those situations where everyone's experiences will differ and many can only speculate on their partner's reasoning and interest because they never actually discussed what the appeal is. For some it's about reenactment of an experience in an attempt to reprocess it in a safe way. For others it's about having a taste of that experience under the blanket of safety. And sometimes it's both.

 

[subdudeme13]

There's actually quite a lot of peer-reviewed surveys confirming similar results about women (and men) who have rape fantasies, mostly imagining themselves on the receiving end. It depends on how you phrase the question, though, because it turns out that a lot more people are comfortable admitting to "forced sex" fantasies than "rape" fantasies.

I did a more or less role play rape with a girl. It was elaborate to the point of me holding a knife to force her into the bed room. Then she said, "Wait! I have to call my sister, she might stop by!" I did ravish her.

 

[Erozetta]

And to answer the original question: My line varies. Some writers can get away with more than others with me because of how they handle the situation or characters. But even those who cross my lines don't offend me. Depending on how far over the line they go, it might give me pause in reading another story by them, though.

My most common line in the sand is psychological torture. When the one in power tries to mentally break the other it just hits too close.for me and I don't handle it well. Physical can get to a similar point for me, but it basically takes more than I've personally experienced to get me to that line.

 

[lovecraft68]

Did you report the story? Odds are nothing will happen even if you did.

This is why my take is that the site should stop pretending they have a rule and a line. Just allow "full rape" stories and be done with it rather than play this game. You allow it, people can't complain much, but when you claim a line as you the OP states, then you see countless stories cross it, but on the other side a story that is within the rules gets booted it's just a tired, sad, hypocritical look.

It comes down to a site saying they're against this, but has a section called non consent.

Making it worse is the ass kissers here who one day will tell someone complaining of an NC story being booted that "Lit doesn't allow rape" then the next day when someone-like the op-is saying "what the hell is this why is it here" the same people will defend the site having it there.

Worse, the BTB style stories in LW break the rule all the time, but its okay.

What it comes down to is this site is fine with everything that gets them a click, but wants to act like they have a rule just in case.

They think they're cute, but what they are is two faced hypocrites who want people to think they have 'ethics"

 

[TarnishedPenny]

There's actually quite a lot of peer-reviewed surveys confirming similar results about women (and men) who have rape fantasies, mostly imagining themselves on the receiving end. It depends on how you phrase the question, though, because it turns out that a lot more people are comfortable admitting to "forced sex" fantasies than "rape" fantasies.

Quite so, although the dividing line between 'forced sex' and outright 'rape' may be a bit fuzzy. My point, of course, is that fantasies are different from real desires and that some fantasies about things which would be terrible IRL are surprisingly common.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

And to answer the original question: My line varies. Some writers can get away with more than others with me because of how they handle the situation or characters. But even those who cross my lines don't offend me. Depending on how far over the line they go, it might give me pause in reading another story by them, though.

I think you have hit it right there. Well said.

 

[AlinaX]

Did you report the story? Odds are nothing will happen even if you did.

I reported it days ago and it's still there.
~op

 

[lovecraft68]

I meant to add-as much as to my post as the OP-that just going with yes. we allow flat out NC stories is I think just allowing the NC stories in the sense of its an erotic kink, is far less problematic and dangerous than the "all women love to be assaulted" angle and no never really means no. Bad enough there's enough men in this world that think that.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I meant to add-as much as to my post as the OP-that just going with yes. we allow flat out NC stories is I think just allowing the NC stories in the sense of its an erotic kink, is far less problematic and dangerous than the "all women love to be assaulted" angle and no never really means no. Bad enough there's enough men in this world that think that.

I agree. Consensual non-con is a farce. The rule is nothing more than a legal ass-cover for the site. They don't want to be seen as promoting/glorifying rape so they disallow realistic rape and only allow fake happy rape. Now there's nothing wrong with writing a rape fantasy in that vein, but by only allowing that and not allowing the other side (the real side of things) all this does is perpetuate the fraud that a woman can actually enjoy being raped. So in the end, the rule does exactly what the site is trying not to do, and that is promoting/glorifying rape.

The rule is fucking retarded.

 

[alohadave]

I did a more or less role play rape with a girl. It was elaborate to the point of me holding a knife to force her into the bed room. Then she said, "Wait! I have to call my sister, she might stop by!" I did ravish her.

That totally needs to be included in a story.

 

[lovecraft68]

I agree. Consensual non-con is a farce. The rule is nothing more than a legal ass-cover for the site. They don't want to be seen as promoting/glorifying rape so they disallow realistic rape and only allow fake happy rape. Now there's nothing wrong with writing a rape fantasy in that vein, but by only allowing that and not allowing the other side (the real side of things) all this does is perpetuate the fraud that a woman can actually enjoy being raped. So in the end, the rule does exactly what the site is trying not to do, and that is promoting/glorifying rape.

The rule is fucking retarded.

But here's the thing about your points.

1- It is not illegal to write this material as long as you're not going the ASSTR route and having minors being abused

2-If the site didn't want to be seen as promoting rape, why do they have a Non-Consent category? Think about it, someone decides to check the site out as in what kind of sickos might hang out here and they see that category, they aren't going to look for rules, they're knee jerk will be "They allow rape stories" Its what I thought way back when I started here. I have no issue with NC as a kink in a fictional story. I do have issue with lying and game playing and the people so concerned with being up the sites ass they can't admit people like us are right.

That's the most farcical thing about this.

Oh, that and an entire category in Mind Control where consent literally does not exist but is somehow okay.

Now that, is what's retarded.

 

[AlinaX]

'op 'op kiss me! 'op
a prince am I! a princess!
'op I love you! 'op

 

[SimonDoom]

This thread is in danger of going off the rails a bit. The point wasn't to discuss, for the hundred millionth time, the merits of the Site's guidelines for what does and doesn't fly in the non-con category. That subject has been beaten to death, everybody has had their say, and the Site isn't going to change the rule. Personally, I'm OK with that. Others feel differently. I think Alina's proposed subject -- our own personal "lines" in this area, rather than our own personal critiques of the Site's lines--is a much more interesting subject, and it's much more likely to lead to fruitful, interesting discussion than complaining about what the Site does.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Oh, that and an entire category in Mind Control where consent literally does not exist but is somehow okay.

I kinda disagree on that point. Although I do agree that the majority of mind control stories actually written are just an excuse for non-con, mind control is not inherently only non-con.

There are several methods of mind control.
1 ~ psychic powers
2 ~ some sort of weird new lab drug or magic potion or item
3 ~ martian slut ray
4 ~ hypnosis
~ probably a couple of others, I'm writing this quickly.

Now the first three certainly, those are forms of non-con, but hypnosis has much nuance. Certainly hypnosis stories can and do employ non-con, but it is entirely possible to write consensual hypnosis. If you ask any hypnotist or read anything on the subject, the first thing that you will be told is that hypnosis can't make anyone do anything that they don't want to do. In fact, some people are very difficult or even impossible to hypnotize. A hypnotist can place a suggestion into a person but that person won't accept that notion if they don't want to. If we extend this idea to a sexual suggestion, most of us have things that we would like to do (or people that we would like to do) but we do not act on it for various reasons. If through hypnosis, a character did something that they would want to do but couldn't/wouldn't otherwise do it would not be non-con at all.

So yes, I will repeat that most of the stories submitted to mind control in practice are non-con, the concept of mind control is not inherently non-con. The category may be abused that way, but that is down to the writers, not the category itself.

 

[SimonDoom]

2-If the site didn't want to be seen as promoting rape, why do they have a Non-Consent category?

This is a view I do not understand, and I have never understood it, and nobody here has ever bothered to provide a rigorous explanation of why this is a sound way to think. I'm going to skip over the Site aspect and focus instead on what it means for an author to promote something, since I think that's closer to what AlinaX is getting at in this thread.

If I write an incest story, I'm not promoting incest. Period. If I write a non-con story about a woman who experiences nonconsensual sex and enjoys it, I am not promoting such sex in the real world, nor am I endorsing the idea that women really DO enjoy such sex. That's just poppycock. If you believe it does, you're just making stuff up. Your view is not based on any evidence. All you have to do is look at the world of art and entertainment all around you to see it's not so. People love slasher movies; it doesn't mean they're slashers, or they want to be slashers, or they support slashers, or any of that nonsense. This is a nonsensical view of the world, and it surprises me to no end that erotic story authors, of all people, because of their affinity for the kinky and the weird, would endorse it.

Most of my stories are erotic fantasies. They take place in fantasy worlds where I want my readers to feel free to experience fantasy feelings without guilt or shame.

Does that mean I have no qualms whatsoever about what I personally write? Absolutely not. I do have such qualms, and I think about them a lot as I write. Incest is no problem for me, because my incest stories are uniformly about consenting adults. Non-con presents issues. I don't worry that I'm "promoting" non-con as a good thing in the real world, or that I'm endorsing the reality of a view of female psychology that I, in fact, think is mostly ridiculous. I don't want to write stories where I'm helping readers get off on characters being hurt. That's why I fully endorse the Site's policy of "they must enjoy it," even if it's not realistic, and I don't object to reading or writing such stories, even though I think they're tricky to get right.

The overall subject area that gives me personal qualms is what falls under the umbrella of what I call "torture porn" -- suffering presented in a way that gets people off. That's why, like LC, I don't like a lot of the "revenge on the woman" Loving Wives stories. I won't read snuff (although I've read one or two of those stories in the distant past, to see what they were like). I don't want to read stories where kids are hurt. I don't want to read or write stories where women suffer as a result of non-con situations and -- this is the key point -- the suffering itself is the thing intended to cause an erotic reaction.