Limbo no longer in Limbo!

[3113]

Vatican panel condemns limbo to eternal dustbin
An advisory study, approved by the pope, concludes that unbaptized babies may go to heaven after all. A Vatican committee that spent years examining the medieval concept published a much-anticipated report Friday, concluding that unbaptized babies who die may go to heaven.

That could reverse centuries of Roman Catholic traditional belief that the souls of unbaptized babies are condemned to eternity in limbo, a place that is neither heaven nor hell. Limbo is not unpleasant, but it is not a seat alongside God.

Catholic doctrine states that because all humans are tainted by original sin, thanks to Adam and Eve, baptism is essential for salvation. But the idea of limbo has fallen out of favor for many Catholics, who see it as harsh and not befitting a merciful God.

The Vatican's International Theological Commission issued its findings — with the approval of Pope Benedict XVI — in a document published by the Catholic News Service, the news agency of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops. The commission is advisory, but the pope's endorsement of the document appears to indicate his acceptance of its findings.

Limbo, the commission said, "reflects an unduly restrictive view of salvation."

"Our conclusion," the panel said in its 41-page report, is that there are "serious theological and liturgical grounds for hope that unbaptized infants who die will be saved and brought into eternal happiness." The committee added that although this is not "sure knowledge," it comes in the context of a loving and just God who "wants all human beings to be saved."

A church decision to abolish limbo has long been expected. Benedict and his predecessor, the late Pope John Paul II, expressed misgivings about the concept. Benedict, when he was still Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger and the church's top enforcer of dogma, said he viewed limbo as a mere "theological hypothesis." Never part of formal doctrine because it does not appear in Scripture, limbo was removed from the Catholic catechism 15 years ago.

From the Latin "limbus," for hem or edge, limbo refers to a "state of natural happiness" outside heaven, a destination for the souls of babies who were not baptized and certain virtuous people, such as faithful Jews who lived before the time of Christ.

In the 5th century, St. Augustine declared that all unbaptized babies went to hell upon death. By the Middle Ages, the idea was softened to suggest a less severe fate, limbo. In his Divine Comedy, Dante characterized limbo as the first circle of hell and populated it with the great thinkers of ancient Greece and Rome, as well as leading Islamic philosophers.

The document published Friday said the question of limbo had become a "matter of pastoral urgency" because of the growing number of babies who do not receive the baptismal rite. Especially in Africa and other parts of the world where Catholicism is growing but has competition from other faiths such as Islam, high infant mortality rates mean many families live with a church teaching them that their babies could not go to heaven.

Father Thomas Weinandy, executive director for doctrine at the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, said the document "addresses the issue from a whole new perspective — if we are now hoping these children get to heaven, there is no longer any point in worrying about limbo."

"Although it doesn't actually dismiss limbo altogether," Weinandy added, "it argues for other ways of dealing with salvation for infants who died unbaptized."

Jesuit Father Thomas Reese, senior fellow at Georgetown University's Woodstock Theological Center, praised a shift in policy as "pastoral and sensitive" "It shows that Benedict is not afraid to look at something that has been taught in the church for centuries and say it is not at the core of Catholic belief," Reese said in an e-mail statement.

Father Thomas Rausch, a theologian at Loyola Marymount University, said the document "puts the Catholic Church in a different position than Protestant evangelicals, who teach if you do not have a conscious explicit relationship with Christ — born again — you cannot be saved." He said Roman Catholic theologians of earlier generations had a Latin phrase for it, "Extra ecclesia nulla salus, meaning outside the church there is no salvation, or baptism is necessary for salvation."

Rausch said "most young Catholics are probably not even aware of limbo" because of its removal from the catechism. "So I don't see this document as terribly earthshaking. But it is an interesting example of the doctrinal development going on in a church that is alive and responding to new questions."

Catholic conservatives criticized any effort to relegate limbo to oblivion.

Removing the concept from church teaching would lessen baptism's importance and discourage the christening of infants, said Kenneth J. Wolfe, a Washington-based columnist for the traditionalist Catholic newspaper the Remnant.

"It makes baptism a formality, a party, instead of a necessity," Wolfe said. "There would be no reason for infant baptisms. It would put the Catholic Church on par with the Protestants."

It would also deprive Catholic leaders of a tool in their fight against abortion, he added. Priests have long told women that their aborted fetuses cannot go to heaven, which in theory was another argument against ending pregnancy. Without limbo, those fetuses presumably would no longer be denied communion with God.

Baptism with water remains a fundamental step to salvation in Catholic doctrine, and the new document urges parents to continue to baptize their children.

"There is no salvation which is not from Christ and ecclesial by its very nature," the report said.

I'm not a Catholic so this all leaves me a little confused. If you *must* be baptized in order to get into heaven...at what age must you now be baptized? I mean, okay, the unbaptized babies get in...but when does one stop being a baby and start to go to hell if not baptized?

 

[FatDino]

I'm not a Catholic so this all leaves me a little confused. If you *must* be baptized in order to get into heaven...at what age must you now be baptized? I mean, okay, the unbaptized babies get in...but when does one stop being a baby and start to go to hell if not baptized?

Probably when you're old enough to drink.

 

[Boxlicker101]

This is the kind of thing that leads me to believe that all organized religion is a crock. If some rabbi or priest or imam or pastor or shaman or other member of the clergy tells me something like this, why should I believe him or her? Why should I think they know any more than I do. Well, because some other rabbi or priest or imam or pastor or shaman or other memmber of the clergy told them. etc. etc. etc. until it gets prertty hazy if you go back far enough. Not to memtion that some of those members of the clergy were just out to line their own pockets or get hot women to fuck.

What I am saying is that none of the persons making pronouncements like these have ever been their to see with their own eyes and, since they don't really know, why should I believe them.

 

[Equinoxe]

I'm not a Catholic so this all leaves me a little confused. If you *must* be baptized in order to get into heaven...at what age must you now be baptized? I mean, okay, the unbaptized babies get in...but when does one stop being a baby and start to go to hell if not baptized?

That is a very good question. Presumably, it can't be any later than the age of 7, and possibly much earlier, but I have no idea.

 

[3113]

What I am saying is that none of the persons making pronouncements like these have ever been their to see with their own eyes and, since they don't really know, why should I believe them.

Well...in theory they *have* seen it with their own eyes or at least been told it from the highest authority of all while saying their prayers. Whether you believe they have or whether you believe they had a psychotic episode is up to you.

However, in this case, it was more or less decided in a scholarly manner. What is or is not in the scriptures.

The arguement that makes me roll my eyes is the conservative objection in regards to abortion. I suspect that someone who is a good Catholic will not be in favor of abortion even if they're told that unbaptized babies can go to heaven. So why base it's existence on persuading people to sin/not sin? Putting it another way...shouldn't a religion decide on such things out of faith and scriptures, not because it will help them win arguements?

 

[Guest]

Well...in theory they *have* seen it with their own eyes or at least been told it from the highest authority of all while saying their prayers. Whether you believe they have or whether you believe they had a psychotic episode is up to you.

However, in this case, it was more or less decided in a scholarly manner. What is or is not in the scriptures.

The arguement that makes me roll my eyes is the conservative objection in regards to abortion. I suspect that someone who is a good Catholic will not be in favor of abortion even if they're told that unbaptized babies can go to heaven. So why base it's existence on persuading people to sin/not sin? Putting it another way...shouldn't a religion decide on such things out of faith and scriptures, not because it will help them win arguements?

Even if it supposedly comes from faith and scriptures, it will still be someone's interpretation of those scriptures that followers are told to believe.

Is it any wonder it all seems political to me?

 

[Pen_Dragon]

Well...in theory they *have* seen it with their own eyes or at least been told it from the highest authority of all while saying their prayers. Whether you believe they have or whether you believe they had a psychotic episode is up to you.

Or maybe they didn't actually speak to God in their prayers. Maybe they were simply acting on faith based off of what someone else told them. So they kinda heard it from the highest souce, just through a third party. That means that the priest wouldn't really be lying if he told someone else that God told him children would go to hell if they weren't baptisted.

It is not true that either all priests are psychotic, or all priests have two way conversations with God.

 

[Penelope Street]

Limbo no longer in Limbo!

Well, I'm certainly happy that's finally settled!

 

[rgraham666]

Doesn't matter to me. I'm going to Hell and nothing can be done about it.

 

[Guest]

Doesn't matter to me. I'm going to Hell and nothing can be done about it.

All the best people will be there.

 

[only_more_so]

I'm not a Catholic so this all leaves me a little confused. If you *must* be baptized in order to get into heaven...at what age must you now be baptized? I mean, okay, the unbaptized babies get in...but when does one stop being a baby and start to go to hell if not baptized?

Well, most christians baptize their children within a month or two of birth. Except for the baptists, and some others, which wait until the person is an adult and can consciously choose. I remember growing up, the Pastor's daughter gave birth to a child who was very premature, and he did an emergency baptism within a couple of days since the child had a significant chance of dying.

Apparently they have portable baptism kits for such occasions. Just like they have these portable communion things (basically a shot glass with a wafer holder built in).

As for when guilt attaches to the baby... I would guess this is for babies that are either still-born, or die almost immediately, before a child could be expected to be baptized.

 

[rgraham666]

All the best people will be there.

I hope you'll join me in my own private Hell. The 666 isn't just because it looks cool.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Damn! I thought this was about the dance

 

[Boxlicker101]

Doesn't matter to me. I'm going to Hell and nothing can be done about it.

I've known some people who insist they are going to Heaven, and I have known some people who have resigned themselves to going to Hell, either in a handbasket or not. Generally speaking, I much prefer hanging out with the latter group.

 

[Guest]

I hope you'll join me in my own private Hell. The 666 isn't just because it looks cool.

It will be an amazing party.

Just think of the musicians who'll be there!

 

[rgraham666]

It will be an amazing party.

Just think of the musicians who'll be there!

Yep. I'll have Wagner write a libretto just for you.

 

[Guest]

Yep. I'll have Wagner write a libretto just for you.

Nahh, I don't look good in a chestplate and helmet.

But Verdi? That could work.

 

[3113]

Damn! I thought this was about the dance

How low can you go, Jenny?

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

How low can you go, Jenny?

Don't know, 3. I used to get really low before my ass grew

 

[rgraham666]

Nahh, I don't look good in a chestplate and helmet.

But Verdi? That could work.

Not sure he's down there. I'll check with Personnel.

If you think this planet's crowded, you haven't seen where I come from.

The noise level's insane too. All that wailing and gnashing of teeth. A Spinal Tap concert is very quiet in contrast.

 

[jomar]

Gotta love the Catholic religion. Divorce is bad so they create a loophole where a marriage can be annulled after 30 years and however many kids.

 

[rgraham666]

Well the Church did come to the conclusion years ago that if they couldn't convert or kill the pagans and heathens, they had to out-breed them.

After thirty years and X number of children the couple has fulfilled its purpose. Might as well let them off the hook.

 

[ChristopherMaxwell]

Well the Church did come to the conclusion years ago that if they couldn't convert or kill the pagans and heathens, they had to out-breed them.

After thirty years and X number of children the couple has fulfilled its purpose. Might as well let them off the hook.

Hence their views on abortion and such. Mind you, if you had as many sprogs as they suggest, your marriage might well be doomed, as she is always going to be too tired for sex after a while and you are always going to have blue balls. Better have that hot line to the Vatican ready.

 

[ChristopherMaxwell]

Not sure he's down there. I'll check with Personnel.

If you think this planet's crowded, you haven't seen where I come from.

The noise level's insane too. All that wailing and gnashing of teeth. A Spinal Tap concert is very quiet in contrast.

And don't forget that my master, Lord Mithras, is actually Satan according to them. Why do they think that they call Satan "Lucifer" and both "Light-bearer" or "Lord of Light". Have you read Eternal Warriors? The anti-Mithraic overtones are quite clear. Must be guilt over stealing our sacraments and holidays from us.

 

[Jubal_Harshaw]

Purgatory was abolished in the early 70's, heaven and hell were declared a "state of being", not actual places in the early 80's. (Satan lost his devilish red, horned, tailed persona at the same time) The Holy Shroud of Turin was proven to be a hoax in the mid 90's. Limbo was over due for removal from the doctrines. I'm waiting for them to admit that God is not a real being but a basis for a moral model. I give them about 15 years.