Levels of consent

[JohnHudson]

Do you ever consider consent, for fictional characters?

I've submitted my first story, where the character is (I think) reluctant. I started the second story, but left it in draft because it's harsh blackmail. Then what about rape, drugged, tied up but someone else takes over, are people okay with that? "Suck my dick or I'll shoot your dog". It's probably an overdone topic, but I was wondering what people thought?

 

[NotWise]

Do you ever consider consent, for fictional characters?

I've submitted my first story, where the character is (I think) reluctant. I started the second story, but left it in draft because it's harsh blackmail. Then what about rape, drugged, tied up but someone else takes over, are people okay with that? "Suck my dick or I'll shoot your dog". It's probably an overdone topic, but I was wondering what people thought?

You'll find readers for levels of non-consent that the site won't allow.

The site has rules against excessive violence and/or abuse and the victim should ultimately get something out of the experience.

I have only one story in non-con (two parts). The relationship in that story started as coercion and rape, evolved into rough sex, and ended HEA. It isn't an especially popular story.

 

[JohnHudson]

Thanks @NotWise . I assume the guidelines are inline with video porn sites. If it's not on porn hub, it's not in text form here. Makes sense. Also, (for the record) I've zero interest in that shit, it was idle curiosity.

 

[TadOverdon]

I give it a lot more thought when writing than I used to. It frankly complicated my last book, but necessarily so.

 

[stickygirl]

I read casual non-consent everywhere but when an author includes a question or a gesture to seek consent it's refreshing. There's a place for non-con but it's a privately owned site that has rules.
There used to be an author who ran a parallel site for stories that had to demonstrate safe sexual practices - I think she made it accessible to youths with whom she had a connection. If memory serves, she knew they'd been searching for porn anyway so provided them an edited list.

 

[LongDraw]

Do you ever consider consent, for fictional characters?

I've submitted my first story, where the character is (I think) reluctant. I started the second story, but left it in draft because it's harsh blackmail. Then what about rape, drugged, tied up but someone else takes over, are people okay with that? "Suck my dick or I'll shoot your dog". It's probably an overdone topic, but I was wondering what people thought?

Your specific mention of "Suck my dick or I'll shoot your dog" would definitely qualify as prohibited violence since that would be animal cruelty, which covers beastiality which is also prohibited here.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Your specific mention of "Suck my dick or I'll shoot your dog" would definitely qualify as prohibited violence since that would be animal cruelty, which covers beastiality which is also prohibited here.

That doesn't follow. The rule is specifically against bestiality, not animal cruelty in general.

There are thirteen stories on this site containing the phrase "shot the dog", e.g. this one: https://www.literotica.com/s/going-rogue-ch-01

 

[Bramblethorn]

Do you ever consider consent, for fictional characters?

A lot. Not that I write much in the zone near what this site would consider NC, but I'm interested in the nuance - what are the ethics of a relationship where there's a big power difference, how do people manage that in a way where nobody feels pressured? Considering that kind of thing can make for richer stories.

 

[LongDraw]

That doesn't follow. The rule is specifically against bestiality, not animal cruelty in general.

There are thirteen stories on this site containing the phrase "shot the dog", e.g. this one: https://www.literotica.com/s/going-rogue-ch-01

The point was that this could be considered excessive violence. Similar to how conducting cock or dog fights can get you serious prison time. I'm pretty sure that'd be prohibited content if it is that serious a crime.

 

[Bramblethorn]

The point was that this could be considered excessive violence. Similar to how conducting cock or dog fights can get you serious prison time. I'm pretty sure that'd be prohibited content if it is that serious a crime.

That's not how it works. The seriousness of a crime has very little bearing on whether it can be included in fiction, here or elsewhere. Literotica has stories involving murder, rape, assault, terrorism, parent-child incest, illegal drug use, blackmail, streetwalking, fraud, robbery, and just about any other crime you can think of.

There is an "extreme cruelty" rule in NC, but based on some of the stuff this site has accepted, I doubt the scene as described would hit that bar.

 

[XerXesXu]

Do you ever consider consent, for fictional characters?

I've submitted my first story, where the character is (I think) reluctant. I started the second story, but left it in draft because it's harsh blackmail. Then what about rape, drugged, tied up but someone else takes over, are people okay with that? "Suck my dick or I'll shoot your dog". It's probably an overdone topic, but I was wondering what people thought?

This'll give you an idea.

https://www.literotica.com/s/together-ssn-02-ch-05-cum-dumpster

 

[TheRedChamber]

Thanks @NotWise . I assume the guidelines are inline with video porn sites. If it's not on porn hub, it's not in text form here. Makes sense. Also, (for the record) I've zero interest in that shit, it was idle curiosity.

Actually, I don't think they are, that is the Generally speaking, porn movies on most major sites do not allow for any reluctance once the sex has started (there may be some negotiation at the beginning) . In the UK, which had clearly written down rules of acceptable porn in the form of the BBFC, this used to be very clearly stated (though uninforcable in the Internet era). On Lit and in erotic stories in general, we tend to get an view into the heads of characters, which means that there is a lot more nuance and shades of grey when writing these stories - hence the requirement that the characters enjoy it 'on some level'.

NonConsent is a catagory on this site, but typing it into PornHub gets you an illegal keyword warning (thanks, I'm probably on a list now...)

 

[TadOverdon]

Actually, I don't think they are, that is the Generally speaking, porn movies on most major sites do not allow for any reluctance once the sex has started (there may be some negotiation at the beginning) .

This is true in a literal sense but misleading. It's not difficult to find gonzo porn in which the actress appears to be suffering abuse and distress in the course of the action, although this is generally accompanied by disclaimers at the beginning and end of the video. "I had a great time" sorts of statements.

Is it all performing, either way? Maybe, but I'll attest that most of the performers communicate pain a lot more believably than they communicate enjoyment. If it's all 100% fake then the AVN people should never be awarding "best female performer" to anyone except the gonzo stars.

"Real incest" is a category which you won't find in much mainstream porn but is permitted here at lit, also.

 

[SimonDoom]

I have not yet published any nonconsent stories, but I've written portions of them, and yes, I think about the issue all the time as I write.

I enjoy many nonconsent stories of the sort that are published at Literotica, meaning, stories where the person who does "not consent" nevertheless enjoys what ensues. At the same time, there's something uncomfortable about them. But that's part of the point. The discomfort creates erotic tension. Walking the fine line between nonconsent and enjoyment as an author is tricky. I would say that of all the categories of stories here it's the one where an author is best advised to be mindful of what one is having the characters do and the choices they make.

 

[JohnHudson]

NonConsent is a catagory on this site, but typing it into PornHub gets you an illegal keyword warning (thanks, I'm probably on a list now...)

To paraphrase Oscar Wilde, the only thing worse than being "on a list somewhere" is not being "on a list somewhere"

 

[SimonDoom]

NonConsent is a catagory on this site, but typing it into PornHub gets you an illegal keyword warning (thanks, I'm probably on a list now...)

I didn't know that. That's interesting.

I looked it up, and it appears that what Pornhub means by "nonconsent" is content that a party has not consented to being published. Pornhub instituted tighter regulations in 2020 to prevent this sort of material from being published on its platform, and I think that is what they are referring to.

There's plenty of nonconsensual content on Pornhub, in the sense of videos that appear to depict women and men being kidnapped, tied up or stripped against their will, etc. Nearly all of what I've seen has a very amateurish "fake" look, which takes a lot of the edge off. I haven't exhaustively read their policies and terms of service, but it's not clear to me what limits they put on content that depicts scenes of nonconsensual behavior, and where, if at all, they draw the line.

It bears repeating that there's nothing illegal about depicting murder, rape, kidnapping, torture, etc. in a film or video, assuming it's just acting. Generally speaking, in the US at least, it's completely legal, and it makes no difference whether it's pornographic. The only clearly established legal limit I can think of is the prohibition on child porn: pornographic content that includes children as performers.

Some sites choose, for a variety of reasons, to regulate content more than the law does, but they don't have to, legally.

 

[Bramblethorn]

"Real incest" is a category which you won't find in much mainstream porn but is permitted here at lit, also.

From what I can see, on places like Pornhub it's mostly hiding under a "step-" figleaf. Titles like "genetic sexual attraction with stepmom" do rather give the game away.

 

[TadOverdon]

From what I can see, on places like Pornhub it's mostly hiding under a "step-" figleaf. Titles like "genetic sexual attraction with stepmom" do rather give the game away.

Yes, and the fig leaf matters to the companies, mostly supposedly because it matters to the credit card companies and other payment processors. The same way, I guess, that the fig leaf of pretending that the schools are still full of eighteen year-old virgins matters to the owners of lit.

I saw a video last year that was funny, I think intentionally so, in that it featured an Australian performer who was possibly younger than the guy she was showering with and who was supposed to be her son. He kept calling her "Mom" and then alternating that with protests like "It's okay, you're my stepmother," and she responded with some eyerolling and "Oh, yeah. Stepmother. Right."

 

[TheRedChamber]

This is true in a literal sense but misleading. It's not difficult to find gonzo porn in which the actress appears to be suffering abuse and distress in the course of the action, although this is generally accompanied by disclaimers at the beginning and end of the video. "I had a great time" sorts of statements.

Sorry, yes we should be clear about this. I was thinking about the 'story' aspect of porn which in gonzo is blurred. Obviously abuse does happen in the industry and is sometime all too clear in the finished product.

I didn't know that. That's interesting.

I looked it up, and it appears that what Pornhub means by "nonconsent" is content that a party has not consented to being published. Pornhub instituted tighter regulations in 2020 to prevent this sort of material from being published on its platform, and I think that is what they are referring to.

There's plenty of nonconsensual content on Pornhub, in the sense of videos that appear to depict women and men being kidnapped, tied up or stripped against their will, etc. Nearly all of what I've seen has a very amateurish "fake" look, which takes a lot of the edge off. I haven't exhaustively read their policies and terms of service, but it's not clear to me what limits they put on content that depicts scenes of nonconsensual behavior, and where, if at all, they draw the line.

It bears repeating that there's nothing illegal about depicting murder, rape, kidnapping, torture, etc. in a film or video, assuming it's just acting. Generally speaking, in the US at least, it's completely legal, and it makes no difference whether it's pornographic. The only clearly established legal limit I can think of is the prohibition on child porn: pornographic content that includes children as performers.

Some sites choose, for a variety of reasons, to regulate content more than the law does, but they don't have to, legally.

Yes, and the fig leaf matters to the companies, mostly supposedly because it matters to the credit card companies and other payment processors. The same way, I guess, that the fig leaf of pretending that the schools are still full of eighteen year-old virgins matters to the owners of lit.

Every countries has different rules about this stuff. America, from what I understand, is unusual because it seems to be more about what the credit card companies will allow rather than what the government/first amendment permits. Also because PornHub allows anyone to upload material, it hasn't always enforced all the rules it supposedly has - I believe there was a crackdown a few years ago as a result of the media reporting illegal content on the site. Your right about non-consent having a different meaning there, but (at the risk of getting myself higher up the list) words like 'rape' and 'kidnap' are blocked in their search engine and not allowed by their terms of service. They don't block 'degrading' content as they see that as a matter of opinion so rough stuff is common.

The UK is, I think, interesting because it explicitly and sucintly bans a whole bunch of stuff which, if I'm understanding correctly, is technically legal in America but which isn't usually featured in mainstream pornography. For example, it cleary bans 'rape fantasies' as well as actors pretending to be underage (or even mentioning underage sex) or pretending to be related.

 

[windar]

Yes, and the fig leaf matters to the companies, mostly supposedly because it matters to the credit card companies and other payment processors. The same way, I guess, that the fig leaf of pretending that the schools are still full of eighteen year-old virgins matters to the owners of lit.

I saw a video last year that was funny, I think intentionally so, in that it featured an Australian performer who was possibly younger than the guy she was showering with and who was supposed to be her son. He kept calling her "Mom" and then alternating that with protests like "It's okay, you're my stepmother," and she responded with some eyerolling and "Oh, yeah. Stepmother. Right."

I don't know about full of eighteen year old virgins, but some studies say that 30% of those 18-22 have never had sex https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/college-virgin-average-age-losing-virginity. I don't find an 18 year old virgin unbelievable at all.

But yes, things are driven by credit card companies not the law. There is no legal bar to written stories with characters under 18 having sex; plenty of mainstream stories depict that. Same with non-consensual and all the other things banned here and at some other erotica sites. It's only when they are labelled erotica that some people get their panties in an uproar. But that's the burden we erotica writers labor under (OK, play the world's smallest violin now)...

 

[XerXesXu]

It bears repeating that there's nothing illegal about depicting murder, rape, kidnapping, torture, etc. in a film or video, assuming it's just acting. Generally speaking, in the US at least, it's completely legal, and it makes no difference whether it's pornographic. The only clearly established legal limit I can think of is the prohibition on child porn: pornographic content that includes children as performers.

Provided a jury wouldn't consider it obscene. Who wants to second guess a jury?

 

[SimonDoom]

Provided a jury wouldn't consider it obscene. Who wants to second guess a jury?

You roll the dice when you do that, especially in certain parts of the US, like the South, but there's so little history of successful prosecution of this sort of thing in the last 30 years that as a practical matter it's a very minimal, minimal risk. Plus there's the possibility of getting an appeals court to overturn the jury verdict on the ground that the jury incorrectly applied the obscenity standard.

 

[XerXesXu]

You roll the dice when you do that, especially in certain parts of the US, like the South, but there's so little history of successful prosecution of this sort of thing in the last 30 years that as a practical matter it's a very minimal, minimal risk. Plus there's the possibility of getting an appeals court to overturn the jury verdict on the ground that the jury incorrectly applied the obscenity standard.

There've been very few prosecutions for obscenity in the last 30 years. Max Hardcore was unlucky. The wind may change at any time.
It may be possible to get an Appeals Court to overturn a classic, jury point, but I assume it's as unlikely in the US as in the UK.

 

[TadOverdon]

And yet, successful prosecutions or no, nobody wants their computers seized and their reputations affected by an arrest or even police questioning as part of some other investigation surrounding their participation in what the authorities, and probably the community, consider perverse behaviors.

The principle of "innocent until proven guilty" never has extended beyond the courtroom to public opinion, unfortunately.

 

[ManitowocMike]

Levels of consent​

$100
$200
$500
$1000