Let's Talk Libya

[JustaSCOUNDREL]

A quote on BBC news tonight - to enforce an effective no-fly zone over Libya for long enough to make a difference could cost $1.5 billion.

From whom does the US intend to borrow $1.5 billion?

Og

Not a soul. Fuck it. We get blamed if we do and we get blamed if we don't.

If the Europeans, the Arabs and the Brits want a no fly zone let them do it. Then we can set back laugh and point fingers.

Setting on our hands is a hell of a lot cheaper. I for one am damn tired of America spending our blood, our equipment, and our money bailing you and yours asses out. This time we just set on our ass with our feet on the desk.

Do it yourselves.

 

[oggbashan]

Not a soul. Fuck it. We get blamed if we do and we get blamed if we don't.

If the Europeans, the Arabs and the Brits want a no fly zone let them do it. Then we can set back laugh and point fingers.

Setting on our hands is a hell of a lot cheaper. I for one am damn tired of America spending our blood, our equipment, and our money bailing you and yours asses out. This time we just set on our ass with our feet on the desk.

Do it yourselves.

I think it is a potential disaster for any external country to get involved in Libya but the world stood aside when there were massacres in Rwanda and Yugoslavia.

Don't forget that the UK's blood, equipment and money have been beside the US in the Balkans, Iraq 1 and 2, and Afghanistan. We are burying our dead every week. Today we repatriated a bomb disposal expert AND the ashes of his bomb-sniffing dog who just decided to lay down and die when his master was killed.

Og

 

[Handley_Page]

Not a soul. Fuck it. We get blamed if we do and we get blamed if we don't.

If the Europeans, the Arabs and the Brits want a no fly zone let them do it. Then we can set back laugh and point fingers.

Setting on our hands is a hell of a lot cheaper. I for one am damn tired of America spending our blood, our equipment, and our money bailing you and yours asses out. This time we just set on our ass with our feet on the desk.

Do it yourselves.

You sound as if you know nothing about it.
I can sympathise with your not wanting USA involvement in world affairs; none of us wants our services sat alone in the ruins.

But just take a look at the pictures of the repatriation of both the Canadians and the British before you bemoan the fact that the USA stands alone.
It doesn't. It never has.
Unlike Britain.

 

[JackLuis]

I think everyone. but Italy would like for Libyans to figure this out.

How many dead are we willing to allow?

Is it our obligation to interfere in a civil war?

Should we abstain?

Or bomb G's Air Forces and stand back as his armor defeats the rebellion?

He had six Battalions when this started and my reading says he's lost half of them in desertions and casualties. The fight in the west is taking at least one battalion and the eastern thrust is taking at least one, which leaves him only one in Tripoli.

The fight will have to take place in the cities, in the open field, the armor and artillery will play havoc with the martyrs. The rebels will have to lure them into the cities and lay traps for the tanks, getting them in a knife fight, so close the artillery is muted.

I doubt G's forces are equal to the task, but we shall see.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

I think everyone. but Italy would like for Libyans to figure this out.

How many dead are we willing to allow?

Is it our obligation to interfere in a civil war?

Should we abstain?

Or bomb G's Air Forces and stand back as his armor defeats the rebellion?

He had six Battalions when this started and my reading says he's lost half of them in desertions and casualties. The fight in the west is taking at least one battalion and the eastern thrust is taking at least one, which leaves him only one in Tripoli.

The fight will have to take place in the cities, in the open field, the armor and artillery will play havoc with the martyrs. The rebels will have to lure them into the cities and lay traps for the tanks, getting them in a knife fight, so close the artillery is muted.

I doubt G's forces are equal to the task, but we shall see.

I think the cheap way to take out the air is via Predator drones with Hellfire missiles. Use IR cameras and hit the planes on the ground at night. Then let the Libyans fight it out. It will be bloody tribal warfare just like the bad ol' days before the Ottomans and the British.

 

[JackLuis]

I think the cheap way to take out the air is via Predator drones with Hellfire missiles. Use IR cameras and hit the planes on the ground at night. Then let the Libyans fight it out. It will be bloody tribal warfare just like the bad ol' days before the Ottomans and the British.

The French have a small carrier in the area. there seem to be three bases for his formations, say two Predators each, It's doable and almost deniable.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

The French have a small carrier in the area. there seem to be three bases for his formations, say two Predators each, It's doable and almost deniable.

Who? Us?

 

[JustaSCOUNDREL]

You sound as if you know nothing about it.
I can sympathise with your not wanting USA involvement in world affairs; none of us wants our services sat alone in the ruins.

But just take a look at the pictures of the repatriation of both the Canadians and the British before you bemoan the fact that the USA stands alone.
It doesn't. It never has.
Unlike Britain.

I would never demean ether the British or Canadian troops will to fight or their courage under fire.

The Brits had a maximum of 5.500 troops and I can't find a number of Canadians. At the same time we Americans had over 170,000 committed. We suffered over 4,400 KIA and 32,000 WIA.

The British peak numbers were about 5% of your total army forces while ours were nearly 14% of ours.

War correspondent while roundly praising the the British solders also complained loudly and frequently about the crappy support provided by your government to your troops. Mostly the lack of adequate helicopter support.

One example was the fact the average solder was away from his command 3.5 weeks while taking a 1 week leave back home. Mostly due do not having enough helicopters to move the troops about as needed. That also covers insertions and extractions during combat operations making the fighters less effective overall. Eventually Michael Yon was removed from his embed with the Brits with no reason given.

Again I was and am not questioning the ability or valor of the British fighting men and woman.

As to the Canadians I can't find very much information and I really do not remember hearing much on our news. Feel free to blame the U.S. parochial news. Ass hats.

As to Britain going it alone yes there were times. WW I comes to mind. Eventually though it did. Too late and not enough? Mostly likely but, the fect we did get involved was a minor miracle considering the feeling of America at the time.

WW II a bit late but when we came we came in force. Ogg may remember "Americans, over paid, over sexed and over here,"

The U.S. 8th Air Force took over daylight bombing raids because the Brits were getting their asses shot out of the sky doing daylight runs. Yes we got our asses shot out of the sky too but, we sucked up and dealt.

Back to Iraq and Afghanistan. We have been carrying the majority of the load from the beginning. We have been roundly criticized for our our efforts to remove a brutal dictator. There have been many others have small forces in the countries. Several are not allowed outside the wire. No patrols and minimal interaction with the locals. Not a lot of real help other then in name.

Well enough I say. Do as you wish but leave me and mine out of it. You want it then you do it and don't whine when we don't help.

As I said before ass in the chair and feet on the desk.

 

[Handley_Page]

Thank you, Scoundrel.
One advantage of being a large nation is the ability to field a lot of troops almost anywhere. The snag (as I see it) with this current problem is the lack of local resources following the Banking Crisis. If ya cannot pay for it, you can't go and do it. So you do the best ye can with what you have.

Salute'

 

[JackLuis]

How did this start?

Mother Jones has a time listed article, "What's Happening in Libya Explained"

At the end I found the beginning. "Prison massacre 2 years ago sparked current uprising in Libya"

GENEVA, Switzerland — Courageous Libyans defying the repressive Gaddafi regime took to the streets not a month ago, but more than two years ago. Risking death sentences and unnoticed by most of the world, a small group of families began holding weekly demonstrations in Benghazi, the city that has become the epicenter of the uprising now sweeping the nation.

The day after the riot, security guards forced hundreds of prisoners into courtyards and opened fire.

“The security officers asked for a list of sick people to take to the hospital. Then they blindfolded them and took them to the corner of the prison. They started with them. They were the first ones killed,” a former prisoner who was in Abu Salim at the time said. His brother was killed in the massacre.

Former prisoners said the heavy shooting continued for more than two hours.

For years the government refused to acknowledge the episode. Families tried to make inquires about their loved ones, but were turned away by Libyan authorities or told that their family members were fine. Gradually, from other prisoners who were released from Abu Salim, they began to realize the horrific extent of the massacre. Many of the dead were from Benghazi, Libya’s second-largest city.

Sounds like the Moo-a-mar is using his combined arms now and has a good hold on Zawyina now.