Let this serve as a warning to those who want to end Social Security

[Le Jacquelope]

This is what happens to you if you put your money in the private market.

Private market retirement financing is an utter failure and should be utterly abandoned. If you disagree then just look at what happened in Italy...

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20670001&refer=home&sid=aty4gEh9wups

Italian Pensions Sapped by Private Funds Bush Backed (Update1)

By Andrew Davis and Alessandra Migliaccio

Jan. 5 (Bloomberg) -- Italy did for retirement financing what President George W. Bush couldn’t do in the U.S.: It privatized part of its social security system. The timing couldn’t have been worse.

The global market meltdown has created losses for those who agreed to shift their contributions from a government severance payment plan to private funds meant to yield higher returns. Anger is rising both at the state, which promoted the change, and money managers such as UniCredit SpA and Arca Previdenza, which stood to profit.

Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi’s administration is now considering ways to compensate as many as 1.2 million people who made the switch, giving up a fixed return for private plans linked to financial markets. It’s also letting people delay redemptions on retirement funds to avoid losses after Italy’s benchmark stock index fell 50 percent in 2008, destroying 300 billion euros ($423 billion) in wealth.

“The reform didn’t help anyone,” said Gabriele Fava, who heads the Fava & Associati law firm in Milan and writes about labor law. “Not the government, which was hoping everyone would make the switch to take the strain off its coffers, nor the workers who have not resolved the problem of needing a supplement to their social security pensions.”

Italy’s experience shows how difficult it is to solve a problem facing governments from the U.S. to Europe to Japan as populations age and the old system of taxing workers to support retirees becomes unsustainable. Bush failed to persuade Congress to let workers put a portion of their Social Security taxes into privately invested accounts as voter opposition increased.

Standard Plan

For a quarter of a century, employers in Italy have paid about 7 percent of each worker’s annual salary into the severance system, called TFR. Workers received lump-sum payouts whether they retired, were fired or simply changed jobs.

Someone earning 80,000 euros a year would receive more than 200,000 euros in TFR after 35 years on the job and more than 60,000 euros after a decade of work. The fund pays a fixed return that aims to exceed inflation.

The program was a tempting target for a government struggling to meet its pension obligations. Italy spends about 14 percent of gross domestic product on pensions, the most in the European Union. Spain spends 9 percent and the U.K. 7 percent.

Italy has the EU’s lowest birthrate of 1.3 children per woman. By 2050, the country will have fewer than two working-age people for each person over 65, the lowest ratio in the EU, according to Eurostat, the bloc’s statistics agency.

Pensions Cut

Previous governments adopted measures to lower pension payouts and force workers to retire later. Benefits will drop to as little as 30 percent of a worker’s final salary from about 75 percent now, creating an incentive for Italians to seek higher returns by moving severance funds into a complementary plan.

Gaetano Turchetta, a Rome office manager, made the irreversible move to a private plan after a union representative boasted of the potential for 20 percent annual returns. The 43- year-old father of three now says he would sign with “two hands and two feet” if he could switch back.

“What do I want from the government?” he said. “Just not to become a burden on my kids.”

The TFR plan was meant to dent Italy’s risk-averse culture and lure more people to investment funds, said Biagio Masi, head of Banca Sella SpA’s insurance unit, who called the shift a “world-shattering change in mentality.”

Low Investment Rate

Eight percent of Italians invested in stocks in 2008, half the level of 2002, according to an Oct. 30 report commissioned by Acri, the country’s savings bank association. About 80 percent favored keeping their savings in the bank and 25 percent have a private pension or life insurance, the report said.

Money managers such as UniCredit, Italy’s largest bank, and Arca Previdenza, the biggest pension fund manager, lobbied customers to make the change, seeing it as an opportunity to kick-start a moribund fund management industry.

Funds under management in Italy have shrunk by a quarter in the past seven years, according to the Bank of Italy. The value of pension funds is equal to about 3 percent of GDP, compared with more than 90 percent in the U.S.

Even with full-page newspaper ads, billboards and telephone hotlines spurring Italians to switch, only 1.2 million people, or 10 percent of the eligible private-sector workers, chose to give up the TFR for private plans before the June 2007 deadline, according to fund regulator Covip. Italian lawmakers approved the reform at the end of 2006. It was part of the 2007 budget proposed by former Prime Minister Romano Prodi’s government.

Market Falls

Italy’s benchmark stock index has fallen 53 percent since the switchover. Last year was the first time since 2003 that TFR outperformed private plans, with workers guaranteed a return of 2.8 percent in the 10 months through October, Rome-based Covip said. The average return for private, non-union pension plans ranged from a gain of 2.6 percent for fixed-income funds, to a decline of 24 percent for stock funds, according to Covip.

The government is considering Covip’s proposal to compensate retirees for losses on private pensions incurred in the 12 months beginning Aug. 31, 2008. The watchdog has also proposed forcing funds to adopt more conservative investment strategies as clients near retirement.

Turchetta said his father, a construction worker, got a TFR payout of about 40,000 euros when he retired two years ago. He fears that he’ll be lucky to make ends meet after watching his pension plan drop more than 20 percent.

“Dad was assured a set amount, whereas I’m sitting here watching the market fall,” he said. “It’s so sad.”

To contact the reporters on this story: Andrew Davis in Rome at abdavis@bloomberg.net; Alessandra Migliaccio in Rome at amigliaccio@bloomberg.net
Last Updated: January 5, 2009 05:56 EST

 

[shereads]

If there were any justice, Bush and Cheney would both be heavily invested with Brian Madoff.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Sorry, this shows ignorance of wealth based and funded retirement programs and a tilt towards unfunded - especially public sector - pensions that will bankrupt future generations.

Just look seriously at the demographics and the inability of western civilisation to fund ageing health care and pensions.

You are in a kind of nirvana.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

If there were any justice, Bush and Cheney would both be heavily invested with Brian Madoff.

If there were any REAL justice, Bush and Cheney would be up for treason and there'd be a gallows being set up for the two of them.

Sorry, this shows ignorance of wealth based and funded retirement programs and a tilt towards unfunded - especially public sector - pensions that will bankrupt future generations.

Just look seriously at the demographics and the inability of western civilisation to fund ageing health care and pensions.

You are in a kind of nirvana.

Which private sector pension-equivalents are doing okay now?

And you ain't seen nothin' yet - speaking of future generations, wait'll China's population control programs bear fruit - it'll be right after this generation of working Chinese people get fully vested in their 401k-equivalents and start buying up stocks. Then when it comes time for them to sell and retire... boom. The entire world won't be able to bear their burden.

1.3 billion (and far more than that, considering their census understates their population) Chinese jumping up and down on Wall Street. Talk about bankruptcy.

 

[R. Richard]

Which private sector pension-equivalents are doing okay now?

And you ain't seen nothin' yet - speaking of future generations, wait'll China's population control programs bear fruit - it'll be right after this generation of working Chinese people get fully vested in their 401k-equivalents and start buying up stocks. Then when it comes time for them to sell and retire... boom. The entire world won't be able to bear their burden.

1.3 billion (and far more than that, considering their census understates their population) Chinese jumping up and down on Wall Street. Talk about bankruptcy.

The private penson plans of Chile and Texas government are still doing well. you can Google up the information.

The only solution to the pension problem, world wide, is the investment of pension funds in the world economy. The US government has a Social Security system that Congress has raided to buy votes. In the not too distant future, the bill for the Congressional raid will come due. There is no money in the SS system. Either taxes will have to be raised to politically unacceptable levels, or the government will print enough money to pay the pension. Of course, if the government prints enough money to pay the pensions, the pensions will become worthless, due to inflation.

People who are retired/near retired need to shift retirement funds from stocks to bond funds. The stock funds offer better yields, the bond funds greater safety. Of course, the general public has no idea how the financial sstem operates, since the spend their time in school memorizing poetry, rather than learning how the economy operates.

 

[DeeZire]

Of course, the general public has no idea how the financial sstem operates, since the spend their time in school memorizing poetry, rather than learning how the economy operates.

Actually, there are a great number of people who know exactly how the financial system operates who still got hosed by the economy.

You're right that economic ignorance is rampant in this country, but when the game is rigged, does it really matter if you know the rules?

 

[R. Richard]

Here's what happens when you depend on a government. Comment?

Venezuela shuts cheap oil pipeline for 200,000 US homes

WASHINGTON (AFP) – Some 200,000 US households will no longer get cheap heating oil from Venezuela after the state-owned CITGO subsidiary announced it was dropping the program due to falling oil prices, the organization in charge of distributing the oil said Tuesday.

"Citizens Energy has recently been informed by CITGO that due to falling oil prices and the world economic crisis, CITGO has been forced to re-evaluate all their social programs, including the heating oil program," Citizen Energy Corporation spokesman Brian O'Connor told AFP by telephone.

"Close to 200,000 households throughout the US" benefited from the Venezuelan program since 2005, he said, adding that Venezuelan oil donations in 2007 amounted to 100 million dollars.

 

[R. Richard]

Actually, there are a great number of people who know exactly how the financial system operates who still got hosed by the economy.

You're right that economic ignorance is rampant in this country, but when the game is rigged, does it really matter if you know the rules?

I would deny your first statement. A large number of the people who actually ran Wall Street are now out of work and looking for a job, almost any job. I'm not talking about high management people, but traders who worked with investments, day by day.

As to the game being rigged, you're correct. One of the key things that caused the current economic mess is something called the Community Redevelopment Act (CRA). The CRA forced banks to lend to people who couldn't realistically repay the loans. If a bank 'redlined,' the bank was subjected to heavy economic penalties. The people who were/are behind the CRA? Look to the liberal side of Congress and a man they called 'Blowjob."

 

[DeeZire]

I would deny your first statement. A large number of the people who actually ran Wall Street are now out of work and looking for a job, almost any job. I'm not talking about high management people, but traders who worked with investments, day by day.

That was my point - they were trained professionals, and they and their clients still got screwed - proving that knowledge of the mechanics of the economy was meaningless.

As to the game being rigged, you're correct. One of the key things that caused the current economic mess is something called the Community Redevelopment Act (CRA). The CRA forced banks to lend to people who couldn't realistically repay the loans. If a bank 'redlined,' the bank was subjected to heavy economic penalties. The people who were/are behind the CRA? Look to the liberal side of Congress and a man they called 'Blowjob."

As you well know, it takes two to tango. The spec I heard was that 85 percent of the failed loans were not in compliance with regulations - which indicates a failure of private enterprise to follow the rules (thanks to greed) and a failure of the regulatory agencies to enforce the rules - due to budget cuts by the conservatives in charge. It's funny how the conservatives try to blame the liberals for the economic crash when the conservatives were in charge the whole time. Whatever happened to personal responsibility? Why can't the conservatives just admit they screwed up? (Rhetorical question - don't worry about it.)

 

[kksap]

Actually, there are a great number of people who know exactly how the financial system operates who still got hosed by the economy.

You're right that economic ignorance is rampant in this country, but when the game is rigged, does it really matter if you know the rules?

right on

 

[Carnevil9]

The only difference between Madoff and the Social Security system is that Madoff got arrested and the SS Administrators did not. Also that Madoff's investors were voluntary dupes.

 

[ishtat]

Private funding of Superannuation has worked reasonably well in Australia. The important point is that the socialist government that introduced it understood that contributions had to be directly linked via investment results to pensions.

They are now 9% of gross salary pa and would be higher if the previous conservative government had not stupidly pegged them at 1994 levels. Offering a fixed certain pension without adequate contributions as they did in Italy was fatal. The other ridiculous feature of the Italian system is that someone who starts in the system at 18 can retire on full benefits after 35 years, that is age 53. That is unaffordable anywhere.

The problem with all pension schemes has nothing to do with ownership. The problem is always contributions that are too low. Generally publicly funded schemes are much worse funded than private alternatives.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

Here's what happens when you depend on a government. Comment?

Venezuela shuts cheap oil pipeline for 200,000 US homes

WASHINGTON (AFP) – Some 200,000 US households will no longer get cheap heating oil from Venezuela after the state-owned CITGO subsidiary announced it was dropping the program due to falling oil prices, the organization in charge of distributing the oil said Tuesday.

"Citizens Energy has recently been informed by CITGO that due to falling oil prices and the world economic crisis, CITGO has been forced to re-evaluate all their social programs, including the heating oil program," Citizen Energy Corporation spokesman Brian O'Connor told AFP by telephone.

"Close to 200,000 households throughout the US" benefited from the Venezuelan program since 2005, he said, adding that Venezuelan oil donations in 2007 amounted to 100 million dollars.

That's what happens when you rely on Venezuela.

Those 200,000 homes couldn't afford heating oil anyway. It was either Venezuela or die. When you ain't got money, you ain't got money, and you have to depend on someone. Or are the poor expected to learn magic incantations and conjure up heating oil - or money, for that matter?

That was my point - they were trained professionals, and they and their clients still got screwed - proving that knowledge of the mechanics of the economy was meaningless.

As you well know, it takes two to tango. The spec I heard was that 85 percent of the failed loans were not in compliance with regulations - which indicates a failure of private enterprise to follow the rules (thanks to greed) and a failure of the regulatory agencies to enforce the rules - due to budget cuts by the conservatives in charge. It's funny how the conservatives try to blame the liberals for the economic crash when the conservatives were in charge the whole time. Whatever happened to personal responsibility? Why can't the conservatives just admit they screwed up? (Rhetorical question - don't worry about it.)

Don't even get into the subprime market. Where did the Government mandate subprime mortgage-backed securities?

 

[trysail]

Yet one more in a seemingly never-ending series of threads demonstrating the thread-starter's utter lack of comprehension of both economics and arithmetic.

Innumeracy is thy name. Misinformation, thy game.

 

[trysail]

The only difference between Madoff and the Social Security system is that Madoff got arrested and the SS Administrators did not. Also that Madoff's investors were voluntary dupes.

Spot on and well said.

 

[R. Richard]

That's what happens when you rely on Venezuela.

Those 200,000 homes couldn't afford heating oil anyway. It was either Venezuela or die. When you ain't got money, you ain't got money, and you have to depend on someone. Or are the poor expected to learn magic incantations and conjure up heating oil - or money, for that matter?


Don't even get into the subprime market. Where did the Government mandate subprime mortgage-backed securities?

The Community Redevelopment Act (CEA) mandated that banks loan to those who didn't meet lending requirements. Thus, subprime was created so that the liberals could force the loans and the banks could make the loans at a higher rate. The higher rate wasn't enough.

Venezuela is a government. You know, the kind of organization that you rely on. The kind of organization that furnishes you an umbrella when the sun is shining and then repossesses it when it starts to rain.

Yes, the poor are expected to learn 'magic incantations.' The incantations are taught in high school in a class called English. The purpose of the incantations is to turn out people who can express themselves, but can't earn a living. Once the poor have been indoctrinated, they're vomited out into society to fend for themselves, with no training and no salable skills.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

Yet one more in a seemingly never-ending series of threads demonstrating the thread-starter's utter lack of comprehension of both economics and arithmetic.

Innumeracy is thy name. Misinformation, thy game.

Trysail, you and your know it all opinions are irrelevant. It's a good thing that your belief system is finally being left behind. The world's going to be a much better place now that no one of significance listens to the garbage you post.

The Community Redevelopment Act (CEA) mandated that banks loan to those who didn't meet lending requirements. Thus, subprime was created so that the liberals could force the loans and the banks could make the loans at a higher rate. The higher rate wasn't enough.

I was talking about the mortgage backed securities, not the subprime market. There is a difference.

Venezuela is a government. You know, the kind of organization that you rely on. The kind of organization that furnishes you an umbrella when the sun is shining and then repossesses it when it starts to rain.

And there's the monumental flaw in your reasoning: one Government is the same as another.

Why don't you move to a place without Government interference in the economy and see how long you last. Like Somalia. Oh wait, you're happy posting on an internet that is itself the RESULT of Government.

Yes, the poor are expected to learn 'magic incantations.' The incantations are taught in high school in a class called English. The purpose of the incantations is to turn out people who can express themselves, but can't earn a living. Once the poor have been indoctrinated, they're vomited out into society to fend for themselves, with no training and no salable skills.

Bullshit. They go out into society with training and salable skills - but the market changes so fast that their skills are obsolete in 2-5 years.

We still need manufacturing workers. It's just that the Chinese are getting all the jobs because corporations want to pay them a dollar a day and they want the right to pollute the hell out of the air and water.

I would raise tariffs through the roof. That would fix the jobs problem in a hurry.

 

[R. Richard]

I was talking about the mortgage backed securities, not the subprime market. There is a difference.

When a mortgage operation issues subprime mortgages, the normal practice is to bundle them into Mortgage Backed Securities (MBS). The MBS are then sold, but with a repurchase agreement. The initial problems arose when the repurchase rights were invoked because of the very low quality of the subprime mortgages backing the MBS. It is you who obviously doesn't know the subprime mortgage industry.

And there's the monumental flaw in your reasoning: one Government is the same as another.

Why don't you move to a place without Government interference in the economy and see how long you last. Like Somalia. Oh wait, you're happy posting on an internet that is itself the RESULT of Government.

I have been involved in not one, but several, business enterprises that operated in places where there was not only no government interference in the economy but also damn little government. No, I didn't like it at all. (However, the things I will do to earn the kind of money I want never cease to amaze me.)

No, the Internet came from ARPANET, which received some dunding from the governemtn, but was almost entirely developed by private industry, with input from universities. (NO, AL GORE WAS NOT INVOLVED AT ALL!)

In the mid-60's, Paul Baran of the RAND Institute was commissioned by the Air Force to study how to maintain command and control after a nuclear attack. The solution that Baran suggested involved a technology called "packet switching," which would allow a message on a network to find its destination via any route available. The Advanced Research Projects Agency (ARPA) believed that Baran's theory would work and that such a network would not only fulfill the Air Force's original missions, but would also answer the agency's need for sharing information between its many research institutions. In 1969, ARPANET was born.

When ARPANET connected UCLA to the Stanford Research Institute, UC Santa Barbara, and the University of Utah, there were three things that users could do: log into a remote computer, print to a remote printer, and transfer files between computers. Even with this limited set of capabilities, the network was an instant success and more and more institutions clamored for connection.

During its first decade, ARPANET truly lived up to its billing as an "experimental network." The first nodes were UCLA, Stanford Research Institute, UC Santa Barbara, and University of Utah. New applications and network protocols were constantly developed, tested, and deployed. In 1971, Ray Tomlinson of Bolt, Beranek, and Newman wrote the first email program and the ARPANET community adopted it immediately.

Perhaps the most significant development to come out of ARPANET was TCP/IP or Transmission Control Protocol / Internet Protocol. This set of network standards would not only replace ARPANET's original Network Control Protocol (NCP), but would also serve as the basis for the "network of networks" that was to follow and eventually render ARPANET obsolete.

Bullshit. They go out into society with training and salable skills - but the market changes so fast that their skills are obsolete in 2-5 years.

We still need manufacturing workers. It's just that the Chinese are getting all the jobs because corporations want to pay them a dollar a day and they want the right to pollute the hell out of the air and water.

So, what you're saying is that the educational establishment reinvents itself each 2-5 years. BULLSHIT!

I would raise tariffs through the roof. That would fix the jobs problem in a hurry.

Oh yeah, high tariffs will fix everything. However, almost every economist of note disagrees with you.
From Wiki:
The Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act (sometimes known as the Hawley-Smoot Tariff Act) was an act signed into law on June 17, 1930, that raised U.S. tariffs on over 20,000 imported goods to record levels. In the United States 1,028 economists signed a petition against this legislation, and after it was passed, many countries retaliated with their own increased tariffs on U.S. goods, and American exports and imports plunged by more than half. In the opinion of some economists, the Smoot-Hawley Act was a catalyst for the severe reduction in U.S.-European trade from its high in 1929 to its depressed levels of 1932 that accompanied the start of the Great Depression.

Le Jacquelope, you try to lecture me about MBS, about which you know very, very little. You try to lecture me about lawless areas, about which you know very, very little. You try to lecture me, a computer programmer, about the Internet, about which you know very, very little. Finally, you try to lecture me about tariffs, about which you know very, very little and what you know is wrong. Before you waste any more of the time of this forum, why don't you talk with some university educated economists about the effects of tariffs? They will tell you that you're wrong and they have the PhDs to back it up. After you realize that what you're saying is wrong, you might just reexamine your entire weltanschauung.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

When a mortgage operation issues subprime mortgages, the normal practice is to bundle them into Mortgage Backed Securities (MBS). The MBS are then sold, but with a repurchase agreement. The initial problems arose when the repurchase rights were invoked because of the very low quality of the subprime mortgages backing the MBS. It is you who obviously doesn't know the subprime mortgage industry.

Actually, you're wrong. The government had no hand in designing MBS. Just like I said.

I have been involved in not one, but several, business enterprises that operated in places where there was not only no government interference in the economy but also damn little government. No, I didn't like it at all. (However, the things I will do to earn the kind of money I want never cease to amaze me.)

Then why would you want America to become like that?

No, the Internet came from ARPANET, which received some dunding from the governemtn,

Some? How about almost ALL.

but was almost entirely developed by private industry, with input from universities. (NO, AL GORE WAS NOT INVOLVED AT ALL!)

Please tell us which private industry developed ARPANET. Oh and tell us also who funded it.

Actually, I'll tell you, as I always seem to wind up doing... ARPA was developed by the Department of Defense. And funded almost entirely by the Government. Corporations did not fund the development of ARPA - the basis for the internet as we know it today - in any significant way. I openly challenge you to show otherwise.

As for Al Gore, he came up later with the High Performance Computing and Communication Act of 1991 which created the National Information Infrastructure. Without that, you would not be posting here. Fact of history. Even Andresson of Netscape says without Gore's bill, you would not have a website to post to.

So, what you're saying is that the educational establishment reinvents itself each 2-5 years. BULLSHIT!

Oh really. Where is biotech now? It's gone overseas. Fact of history. Biotech was getting hot not even 5 years ago and now it's being offshored.

The educational system doesn't reinvent itself every 5 years because it can't keep up.

Next?

Oh yeah, high tariffs will fix everything. However, almost every economist of note disagrees with you.

Really, now.

The US is running a monstrous trade deficit with most of the world. That means we're importing more goods than we're exporting. Oh, and we're exporting more jobs than we're importing.

So when we slap down a huge tariff - particularly directed against sweatshops like China and India, exactly what net loss are we suffering here? Are they going to cut off our exports? Oh my. We have a negative export with them as it is. Cut off a negative and you have zero - an improvement in the trade deficit! We'll have to make our software here and manufacture our DVD players here in the US - putting millions more people to work.

I've posted my plans about tariffs before; targeting Europe would be out. Targeting China and India would be priority #1.

What are they going to do? Not send their goods or services here?

Great!

We'll have more jobs here!



MBS was not created by the Government. ARPA was created by the DOD and funded by the Government. Al Gore is THE REASON why you are posting your tripe. And slapping a monstrous tariff on China and India is 100% good for America. Period.

The way to shut you up would be to take the Government out of ARPA and that would mean you would have no website to post your garbage to. Short of that... well, why don't you just log off, get a clue, and come back when you've learned something. Until then I'm not interested in discussing this with you.

I'm interested in our politicians taking action and to hell with people like you. You're a road block to progress and meaningful change for this country.

 

[Boxlicker101]

The only difference between Madoff and the Social Security system is that Madoff got arrested and the SS Administrators did not. Also that Madoff's investors were voluntary dupes.

There is another big difference. With Social Security, a person who has paid into it for years might die and lose everything they have invested. An example: My second wife died in her early fifties, after working for at least thirty years. Nobody got a penny of the money she and her employers had put in for all that time. I could have gotten a small fraction of it, except I applied too late.

With a Ponzi scheme, the suckers can cash out and take their profits. The problem is that so many of them let it roll over, and end up getting nothing when the bubble bursts.

I don't know just how privatized Social Security works, because I would not be eligible for that option. However, if the payers pay into some kind of investment account, does the money in the account go to their estates if they die before having a chance to collect?

 

[Le Jacquelope]

There is another big difference. With Social Security, a person who has paid into it for years might die and lose everything they have invested. An example: My second wife died in her early fifties, after working for at least thirty years. Nobody got a penny of the money she and her employers had put in for all that time. I could have gotten a small fraction of it, except I applied too late.

Or you could put your money into stocks and have it evaporate before your eyes just as you're about to retire. Which is what has just happened to millions of people in America.

With a Ponzi scheme, the suckers can cash out and take their profits. The problem is that so many of them let it roll over, and end up getting nothing when the bubble bursts.

Theoretically.

I don't know just how privatized Social Security works, because I would not be eligible for that option. However, if the payers pay into some kind of investment account, does the money in the account go to their estates if they die before having a chance to collect?

Typically yes... what little money you would get after a crash like what we're seeing now.

 

[R. Richard]

Please tell us which private industry developed ARPANET. Oh and tell us also who funded it.

Actually, I'll tell you, as I always seem to wind up doing... ARPA was developed by the Department of Defense. And funded almost entirely by the Government. Corporations did not fund the development of ARPA - the basis for the internet as we know it today - in any significant way. I openly challenge you to show otherwise.

As for Al Gore, he came up later with the High Performance Computing and
Communication Act of 1991 which created the National Information Infrastructure. Without that, you would not be posting here. Fact of history. Even Andresson of Netscape says without Gore's bill, you would not have a website to post to.

In the mid-60's, Paul Baran of the RAND Corporation [NOT the government] developed a technology called "packet switching," which would allow a message on network to find its destination via any route available. Baran's work led to ARPANET.

In 1971, Ray Tomlinson of Bolt, Beranek, and Newman [NOT the government] wrote the first email program and the ARPANET community adopted it immediately.

Perhaps the most significant development to come out of ARPANET was TCP/IP or Transmission Control Protocol / Internet Protocol. This set of network standards would not only replace ARPANET's original Network Control Protocol (NCP), but would also serve as the basis for the "network of networks" that was to follow and eventually render ARPANET obsolete.

Libraries [NOT the government] began automating and networking their catalogs in the late 1960s independent from ARPA. The visionary Frederick G. Kilgour of the Ohio College Library Center (now OCLC, Inc.) led networking of Ohio libraries during the '60s and '70s. In the mid 1970s more regional consortia from New England, the Southwest states, and the Middle Atlantic states, etc., joined with Ohio to form a national, later international, network. Automated catalogs, not very user-friendly at first, became available to the world, first through telnet or the awkward IBM variant TN3270.

The Internet matured in the 70's as a result of the TCP/IP architecture first proposed by Bob Kahn at BBN [NOT the government]and further developed by Kahn and Vint Cerf at Stanford [NOT the government] and others throughout the 70's. It was adopted by the Defense Department in 1980 replacing the earlier Network Control Protocol (NCP) and universally adopted by 1983.

The first effort, other than library catalogs, to index the Internet was created in 1989, as Peter Deutsch and his crew at McGill University in Montreal [NOT the government and not even the US], created an archiver for ftp sites, which they named Archie. This software would periodically reach out to all known openly available ftp sites, list their files, and build a searchable index of the software. The commands to search Archie were unix commands, and it took some knowledge of unix to use it to its full capability.

In 1986, the National Science Foundation funded NSFNet as a cross country 56 Kbps backbone for the Internet. They maintained their sponsorship for nearly a decade, setting rules for its non-commercial government and research uses.
Peter Scott of the University of Saskatchewan [NOT the government and not the US], recognizing the need to bring together information about all the telnet-accessible library catalogs on the web, as well as other telnet resources, brought out his Hytelnet catalog in 1990.

Advanced Research Projects Agency (ARPA) and later Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) were agencies of the federal government.
Of course corporations/universities did not fund the development of ARPA [nor DARPA.] However, corporations/universities did fund and develop the basis for the internet as we know it today. [Read the above paragraphs.]

By the late 1960s, libraries had developed a early form of the Internet. Said early form of the Internet was further developed through the 1960s and 1970s by libraries and universities. [Read the above paragraphs.]

In 1989 another significant event took place in making the nets easier to use. Tim Berners-Lee and others at the European Laboratory for Particle Physics [NOT the government and not the US], more popularly known as CERN, proposed a new protocol for information distribution. This protocol, which became the World Wide Web in 1991, was based on hypertext--a system of embedding links in text to link to other text, which you have been using every time you selected a text link while reading these pages. Although started before gopher, it was slower to develop.

Did Al Gore invent the Internet?
According to a CNN transcript of an interview with Wolf Blitzer, Al Gore said,"During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet." Al Gore was not yet in Congress in 1969 when ARPANET started or in 1974 when the term Internet first came into use. Gore was elected to Congress in 1976.

Oh really. Where is biotech now? It's gone overseas. Fact of history. Biotech was getting hot not even 5 years ago and now it's being offshored.

The educational system doesn't reinvent itself every 5 years because it can't keep up.

Next?

You stated that schools turn out well trained individuals, but that the pace of progress outmodes what they learn in 2-5 years. Now you tell me that "The educational system doesn't reinvent itself every 5 years because it can't keep up." Thus, the schools don't turn out well trained individuals, by your own words.

The US is running a monstrous trade deficit with most of the world. That means we're importing more goods than we're exporting. Oh, and we're exporting more jobs than we're importing.

The US has run a trade deficit pretty much since WW II. You say, "Oh, and we're exporting more jobs than we're importing." If you worked in tech, you would see that the US hires literally thousands of foreign born tech workers, because the schools [government] teach crap, rather than the useful skills that US industry needs. There are also thousands of US workers employed, in this country, by foreign corporations. The US employees make cars, electronics and more. In addition, US employees now make Budweiser, a foreign owned beer. Show me your job import/export figures.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

In the mid-60's, Paul Baran of the RAND Corporation [NOT the government] developed a technology called "packet switching," which would allow a message on network to find its destination via any route available. Baran's work led to ARPANET.

Half truths. Baran's work was used by the Government to create ARPANET. It wasn't used by RAND Corporation to create ARPANET. If RAND never existed, Paul Baran would have done it anyway.

Let's put it another way - if the Government hadn't adopted Baran's work, you wouldn't be posting this. So who is ARPANET's daddy, and by extension the internet's daddy? Government.

In 1971, Ray Tomlinson of Bolt, Beranek, and Newman [NOT the government] wrote the first email program and the ARPANET community adopted it immediately.

BBN didn't even create the email program, an individual did; and it got rolled into ARPANET.

So if the Government hadn't adopted Tomlinson's work, you wouldn't be posting this. So who is ARPANET's daddy, and by extension the internet's daddy? Government.

Libraries [NOT the government] began automating and networking their catalogs in the late 1960s independent from ARPA. The visionary Frederick G. Kilgour of the Ohio College Library Center

The Ohio College Library Center is not the Government much in the same way as the FBI is not a law enforcement agency.

And, um, who ran those other libraries, pray tell? Private companies? Oh, I know, the Local or State Governments!

The Internet matured in the 70's as a result of the TCP/IP architecture first proposed by Bob Kahn at BBN [NOT the government]and further developed by Kahn and Vint Cerf at Stanford [NOT the government] and others throughout the 70's. It was adopted by the Defense Department in 1980 replacing the earlier Network Control Protocol (NCP) and universally adopted by 1983.

Wait, if the Defense Department hadn't adopted this technology, what proof do you have that we would ever have seen it in use? That's part of why it's called the DoD TCP/IP protocol. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vint_Cerf - look it up.)

So if the Government hadn't adopted Cerf's and Kahn's work, you certainly wouldn't be posting this. So who is the internet's daddy again?

The first effort, other than library catalogs, to index the Internet was created in 1989, as Peter Deutsch and his crew at McGill University in Montreal [NOT the government and not even the US]

Not the Government, eh?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McGill_University
"McGill University is a public university located in Montreal, Quebec..."

Care to tell us what a public university is?

In 1986, the National Science Foundation funded NSFNet as a cross country 56 Kbps backbone for the Internet. They maintained their sponsorship for nearly a decade, setting rules for its non-commercial government and research uses.
Peter Scott of the University of Saskatchewan [NOT the government and not the US]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Saskatchewan

The University of Saskatchewan (U of S) is a coeducational public research university

Care to tell us what a public research university is? Hint: what does 'public' mean?

Now, would you care to tell us how much BBN and RAND spent on this research, versus the Department of Defense?

Advanced Research Projects Agency (ARPA) and later Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) were agencies of the federal government.
Of course corporations/universities did not fund the development of ARPA [nor DARPA.]

And with that you sank your entire argument. You'd have to be a flaming idiot to argue that the internet that we know today, would have even existed without the prior existence of ARPA/DARPA. A flaming friggin idiot.

But I fully expect you to evade that part.

However, corporations/universities did fund and develop the basis for the internet as we know it today. [Read the above paragraphs.]

The universities you listed are, except for Stanford, public institutions. Oh and what were those libraries? Please tell me you're not going to say they're not Government institutions on either the local or state level.

It boggles the mind how you could refer to CERN as a private entity.

By the late 1960s, libraries had developed a early form of the Internet. Said early form of the Internet was further developed through the 1960s and 1970s by libraries and universities. [Read the above paragraphs.]

And how many of those libraries and universities were public vs private institutions?

In 1989 another significant event took place in making the nets easier to use. Tim Berners-Lee and others at the European Laboratory for Particle Physics [NOT the government and not the US], more popularly known as CERN, proposed a new protocol for information distribution.

*Laughs out loud* CERN is not a Government agency? It was formed by 11 countries. That's 11 Governments for those of you in Podunk, Kansas. Guess where they get much of their funding?

Did Al Gore invent the Internet?
According to a CNN transcript of an interview with Wolf Blitzer, Al Gore said,"During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet." Al Gore was not yet in Congress in 1969 when ARPANET started or in 1974 when the term Internet first came into use. Gore was elected to Congress in 1976.

Half truths as usual.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Performance_Computing_and_Communication_Act_of_1991

Gore gave an interview for CNN's Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer on 9 March 1999 in which he stated,
“ During my service in the United States Congress I took the initiative in creating the internet. I took the initiative in moving forward a whole range of initiatives that have proven to be important to our country's economic growth and environmental protection, improvements in our educational system. [12] ”

This statement was often misquoted by media outlets and led to the creation of a widely spread urban legend that Gore claimed to have "invented the Internet." [13] The urban legend became "an automatic laugh" (Jay Leno, David Letterman, or any other comedic talent could crack a joke about Al Gore 'inventing the Internet,' and the audience would be likely to respond with howls of laughter).[14]

In response to the controversy, Internet pioneers Vint Cerf and Bob Kahn argued in a 2000 email that, "We don't think, as some people have argued, that Gore intended to claim he "invented" the Internet. Moreover, there is no question in our minds that while serving as Senator, Gore's initiatives had a significant and beneficial effect on the still-evolving Internet."[15]

You stated that schools turn out well trained individuals, but that the pace of progress outmodes what they learn in 2-5 years. Now you tell me that "The educational system doesn't reinvent itself every 5 years because it can't keep up." Thus, the schools don't turn out well trained individuals, by your own words.

Well trained and keeping up with goal posts that move almost as fast as every 4 year degree cycle, are not the same thing. The jobs are still out there. The work still needs to be done. It's just all going overseas.

You don't need a college degree now as much as you need to be able to leave the country to find work.

The US has run a trade deficit pretty much since WW II. You say, "Oh, and we're exporting more jobs than we're importing." If you worked in tech, you would see that the US hires literally thousands of foreign born tech workers, because the schools [government] teach crap, rather than the useful skills that US industry needs.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. US schools teach students quite well. That's why we have so many students coming from abroad to our universities. The H1B program is intended to bring in lower wage workers. I know this BECAUSE I've worked in tech for so long. And you know what else? Our American born and raised programmers innovate like crazy. Unfortunately the corporations want to pay them peanuts to do so.

Read, and be educated.
http://townhall.com/columnists/Phyl...de_of_good_us_jobs_going_overseas?popup=false

Oh and spare me your crap about American workers and their education. We're among the most productive workers in the world. Pretty good for a bunch of uneducated idiots, eh?

There are also thousands of US workers employed, in this country, by foreign corporations. The US employees make cars, electronics and more. In addition, US employees now make Budweiser, a foreign owned beer. Show me your job import/export figures.

Budweiser was bought by another company - it used to be an American company.

And so what if thousands of US workers are employed by foreign companies. We've lost MILLIONS of jobs overseas. 30,000 jobs a month since 2001 at least.