Leftist {not liberal, not dem} Intolerance - Where the Left failed in Kindergarten.

Todd

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Since September 11, the public has been lectured repeatedly that the United States is at war with terrorists who have hijacked the Islamic faith, not with Muslims, and that Arab and Muslim Americans must be treated with tolerance and respect. This is good advice, although most Americans already live by the Golden Rule.

But there are those who have little tolerance and respect for the rights of others. And I'm not talking about the obvious hate-mongers, such as neo-Nazis, the Ku Klux Klan, and the skinheads — all of which are well known, detestable enemies of democracy. No, I'm talking about the intolerance of the Left, which professes to support civil liberties. Here are some worthy examples:

The Sacramento Bee reports that the American Civil Liberties Union is demanding that Breen Elementary School in Rocklin, California, remove a "God Bless America" sign from its property, which the school displayed in response to the terrorist atrocities of September 11. The ACLU claims that the words broadcast a "hurtful, divisive message." "By displaying a religious message, the Breen Elementary School is dividing its young students along religious lines." At least for now, Breen's principal has not buckled to the pressure, announcing that he has no intention of removing the message from school grounds.

The ACLU also tried recently to stop the Commonwealth of Virginia from implementing its minute of silence policy for public-school students. The pupils can use the time for quiet reflection, meditation, or — and here's the supposed rub — silent prayer. The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit upheld the state law. A few weeks ago, the U.S. Supreme Court refused to intervene. Chief Justice William Rehnquist, speaking for the Court, wrote, in part, that "There is no allegation that Virginia schoolteachers have used the minute of silence, or any other occasion, to lead students in collective prayer." God forbid if they had.

A few weeks ago, the Madison, Wisconsin, school board banned the recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance and the singing of the Star-Spangled Banner from its classrooms. The AP reports that proponents of the ban argued that the pledge's phrase — "one nation, under God" — is inappropriately religious, and the national anthem's lyrics are militaristic. Public pressure forced the school board to reverse course. However, prior to reciting the pledge or singing the anthem, students must first be informed that their participation is voluntary. We wouldn't want to offend anybody.

The Boy Scouts of America, a private organization, determined that the appointment of openly gay scout leaders violates its mission and purpose. The Supreme Court upheld the Boy Scouts' right to freedom of association under the First Amendment. Now, the group is the target of a well-orchestrated campaign to ban it from the public square — particularly from public schools. Just a few days ago, the Seattle Times reported that "Garfield High School's Outdoor Education program has broken away from the Boy Scouts because its student leaders object to a Boy Scout policy that bans openly gay leaders and members."

Did you know that the ROTC is prohibited from appearing on numerous college campuses? In New York alone, the ROTC is banned from Columbia University, New York University, and the City University of New York. Harvard University chased the ROTC off campus thirty-two years ago. The September 11 attacks have prodded 900 alumni to petition Harvard to reinstate the corps, but to no avail — yet.

And then there's the case of a Jewish elementary-school teacher who was removed from her second-grade classroom the other day by the liberal New York City schools chancellor Harold Levy. Apparently, parents, most of whom are Arab Americans, complained that she made anti-Arab comments. According to the New York Post, one of the parents complained that the teacher "told our kids she went to Israel and that Palestinian children threw rocks at her." The teacher said, "I do remember saying, 'terrorism is unusual to us, but this is how everyday life is in Israel." "I didn't teach anti-Arab. I taught antiterrorism." The Board of Education is now investigating the teacher. Gee, I wonder if truth is a defense to political correctness?

Yes, we need tolerance in America. So, when will the Left practice it?
 
You're right, Todd

I consider myself to be a liberal Democrat. However, I cringe at the examples that you cite. Extremism, whether from the right or from the left, becomes first dogmatic and then dangerous to our freedoms.
 
Re: You're right, Todd

YogiBare said:
I consider myself to be a liberal Democrat. However, I cringe at the examples that you cite. Extremism, whether from the right or from the left, becomes first dogmatic and then dangerous to our freedoms.


Thank you YogiBare. there is nothing wrong with Democratic democrats or liberal democrats its comes to the line in the sand that they step over to become a leftist.

As you say extremism comes on both sides of the fence, there is the extreme right and the extreme left and the scary thing is both or so gall durned sure that they are right and that thier means justify thier ends.

But in the means and the ends its everyone else that gets screwed over in the carnage of rightist and leftist
 
I'm still confused over what views an American has to have to be considered left wing. Because from this side of the Atlantic you all seem to be from right of centre to way, way far out right. So what views do you have to have to be considered left wing in the States?

In most of the examples you gave Todd it seemed that rather than being intolerant, they were trying to be over tolerant to any and every possible minority that might be affected.
 
AS much as intolerance seems to be a sign of the rightist {KKK, godhatesfags, etc.}

Super tolerance seems to be a sign of the leftist.

Now don't get me wrong tolerance is a good thing, infact i think the rightist needs to become more tolerant but in the same breath the leftist needs to become less tolerant.

The leftist super tolerance moves into such a postion that it makes such room for what ever that is being tolerated that it makes something else have to move out of the way to make room forcing a biased of one against the other , then it uses that baised and nutured it and raises it up into a race card issue or something equally painful for everyone even those not invovled.

Can I make a crude example?

oh well I am anyways?

The rightist.

You have ten people{they can be what ever mix you want}, and they get along and have no reason not to. Tthe rightist is so intolerant that he seperate the ten in such a way that they will never have any contact with each other to make up thier own minds. the Rightest tells each what to believe of the other.

The leftist.

You have those same ten people {they can be what ever mix you want}, and they get along and have no reason not to. The leftist forsees that there might possibly be some difference of opinion between P7 and P8 so instead of mediating a solution, uses a radical measure and pushes p5&p6&p8&p9 far away from p7 right off thier own places just so that p7 will feel absolutely no disharmony from anyone around, but in the process now not only does p8 disharmony go unrepaired the leftist has now spread a bitterness of p7 to p6,p7,p8 and p9

i know it is a woefully cheap explaination but you got to understand i am me.
 
Re: Leftist {not liberal, not dem} Intolerance - Where the Left failed in Kindergarten.

Todd said:

A few weeks ago, the Madison, Wisconsin, school board banned the recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance and the singing of the Star-Spangled Banner from its classrooms. The AP reports that proponents of the ban argued that the pledge's phrase — "one nation, under God" —

I think the question here is Which God? My God? Your God? Is a child allowed to interchange his/her name for God say Allah, Budda, Goddess, Diana, Thor Zeus etc.Are they required to use the word God? A large percentage of the American population is christian in their beliefs. What if instead of God the wording were... one nation, under Budda" would you feel your child should recite those words? I think the intent was to respect everyones beliefs.
 
to me the statement "under God" is relgion neutral

yes america, north america is supposidly a "christian" nation but nothing in "under god" sasys what god just a god.

its not christian god, its not catholic god, its not jewish god, its not buddha god, its nod josephsmith god, its not mary glubber eddy bakker god.

its just god insert what ever version of such you wish to believe in.

if you don't believe in one then don't say the words period.

why should the many people who believe in different religions have thier rights to believe in thier god piublically quashed because of those who don't beleive in a god

equally so those who don't believe in a god should not have to recite such statement or be made to recite such statement. they can remain silent.

in several schools i went to that is what went on and talking with one of my school day athiest friends a few months back i asked if she felt discriminated by having to listen to the other students do the canadain god pledge thing in the morning, she told me know she took the time to review her lessons and homework {might explain why she had a 99% average at the end}
 
Todd said:
to me the statement "under God" is relgion neutral

To you yes, and I agree but not everyone is so openminded.That is why it is a necessary to be very specific. Also you are seeing this from an adults point of view or at the youngest high school. What about the younger kids? They don't really grasp the concept of god is whatever you want to call him/her.There are plenty of adults that can't grasp that concept.There is the potential to make some smaller kids very confused if they learn one thing at school and another at home.
 
As always, Todd, your latest cut-and-paste offers a wealth of material for comment, but let's stick to just one topic, the Pledge of Allegiance.

A few historical facts about the Pledge:

It was written in 1892 by Francis Bellamy, a Christian Socialist minister who was later drummed out of his church for his political beliefs.

Bellamy wanted to add the word "equality" to the litany of "liberty and justice," but refrained because he knew that the other members of a Columbus Day quadricentennial committee for which he wrote the pledge weren't in favor of equality for women and African-Americans.

In 1924, the American Legion and the DAR pushed through a change from the original words, "my flag" to "the flag of the United States of America."

In 1954, prodded by the Knights of Columbus, Congress added the words, "under God."

****************

You say that a reference to God in the Pledge is religion-neutral.

You also say, amazingly, that somehow not forcing people to say the Pledge will publicly "quash" the rights of the religious to believe in God.

Oh, and you also managed to aver that "north america" is a Christian nation. Beyond the innate absurdity of that last statement, its essence, and that of the other two, just isn't true.

Speaking as a citizen of the United States, and not of Christian north america, I have no problem with the Pledge although I'd probably prefer to pledge my allegiance to "the republic for which it stands" as the author intended.

However, speaking as someone who does profess religious beliefs, I resent being forced into a public prayer which requires that I acknowledge something in which I do not believe. Furthermore, I resent the idea that anyone should be forced into such a position, particularly schoolchildren, who should receive their religious education when and where their parents see fit, not where Congress decided to reveal it.

Remaining silent, as you advocate, is just not an option. Why should I, or a child in a public school, be deprived of the opportunity to take part in a patriotic exercise to express my love of my country, just because I don't believe in a creator God? I also don't care to be forced into that sort of hypocrisy and I don't care to be made to feel as if my religious beliefs are somehow marginal because they don't conform to those of the majority.

Frankly, I try not to sweat the small stuff. I have sufficient confidence in my own beliefs that I can handle the Pledge of Allegiance without feeling that my faith has been rocked. However, as cyndiesweet said, it's supposed to be about respecting everybody's beliefs, not just those of the majority.
 
cyndiesweet said:


To you yes, and I agree but not everyone is so openminded.That is why it is a necessary to be very specific. Also you are seeing this from an adults point of view or at the youngest high school. What about the younger kids? They don't really grasp the concept of god is whatever you want to call him/her.There are plenty of adults that can't grasp that concept.There is the potential to make some smaller kids very confused if they learn one thing at school and another at home.

I guess me and my friends were stupid kids then. I was an athiest until grade 12. and had several other friends hat were atheist. I guess we were to stupid. We saw the canadian "under God" thing at the start of every day as a neutral god statement. We didn't go "Oh look they are pitting the catholics against the baptists" or "they are pitting the christians against the mormons" or "they are pitting mormons against jehovahs witnesses" or "they are pitting seveventh day adventist against the catholics" we saw it as neutral god what ever the kids faith was that believed in a god they said it to thier god. as for me and the athiest raised kids well we simply didn't cit ethat line.

But i guess we were to stupid as 6 year olds up to 18 to realize that "under god" was only for the christians that "other faiths couldn't say "under god" to thier god and not feel segregated.

Just another stupid kid i was i guess. bad todd, bad todd
 
As always, Todd, your latest cut-and-paste offers a wealth of material for comment, but let's stick to just one topic, the Pledge of Allegiance.

A few historical facts about the Pledge:

It was written in 1892 by Francis Bellamy, a Christian Socialist minister who was later drummed out of his church for his political beliefs.

Probably a relative of Rev. Phelps, Jimmy Swagart and Jerry Falwell

Bellamy wanted to add the word "equality" to the litany of "liberty and justice," but refrained because he knew that the other members of a Columbus Day quadricentennial committee for which he wrote the pledge weren't in favor of equality for women and African-Americans.

In 1924, the American Legion and the DAR pushed through a change from the original words, "my flag" to "the flag of the United States of America."

In 1954, prodded by the Knights of Columbus, Congress added the words, "under God."

****************

You say that a reference to God in the Pledge is religion-neutral.

You also say, amazingly, that somehow not forcing people to say the Pledge will publicly "quash" the rights of the religious to believe in God.

Oh, and you also managed to aver that "north america" is a Christian nation. Beyond the innate absurdity of that last statement, its essence, and that of the other two, just isn't true.

I did not say or aver that north america is a christian nation. The key word in my statement is supposidly a christian nation. That is what the other nations say of us and what the non-christian say of north america. Ask any christian who actually believes in his faith and you will have a whole nother picture painted before you. One of a very unchristian nation which is closer but not entirely acurate either. Its more from what i have seen in my limited time limited travels of a 4 christians to every 6 non-christians a far cry from a christian nation.

the only ligit reason it gets labels as christian is cause of the Notoriaty of the Catholic Church and the lack of anything to really call a ralling point to call everyone else under.

Christian nation by name only not by deed/action or attitude.

Speaking as a citizen of the United States, and not of Christian north america, I have no problem with the Pledge although I'd probably prefer to pledge my allegiance to "the republic for which it stands" as the author intended.

However, speaking as someone who does profess religious beliefs, I resent being forced into a public prayer which requires that I acknowledge something in which I do not believe. Furthermore, I resent the idea that anyone should be forced into such a position, particularly schoolchildren, who should receive their religious education when and where their parents see fit, not where Congress decided to reveal it.

how is being silent during "bottled pray' forcing anything on you. You can listen to what ever you want, read, hum, do what ever paper work. unless the schools really changed since 1993 when i was in. Those who did not want the pray could do what ever they wanted as long as it was to disruptive.

And I agree religion should be taught by the parents where and when they feel, but on the other hand the schools shouldn't be teaching that its all wrong and undermining the parents responsibility. Education, religion, teachings, and parenting can and should get along they shouldn't all be pitted against one another as is the current norm.

Remaining silent, as you advocate, is just not an option. Why should I, or a child in a public school, be deprived of the opportunity to take part in a patriotic exercise to express my love of my country, just because I don't believe in a creator God? I also don't care to be forced into that sort of hypocrisy and I don't care to be made to feel as if my religious beliefs are somehow marginal because they don't conform to those of the majority.

remaining silent on two words isn't an option???? that is just well that is just absurd. how in the green gehenna does being silent on 2 words deprive anyone of a patriotic exercise and expression of love for country.

Again, christianity is not the majority, it may have been but it ain't no more no matter how hard the rightist scream, no matter how hard the leftist scream, no matter how hard the republican scream, no matter how hard the democrat screams christianity is not the majority.

Frankly, I try not to sweat the small stuff. I have sufficient confidence in my own beliefs that I can handle the Pledge of Allegiance without feeling that my faith has been rocked. However, as cyndiesweet said, it's supposed to be about respecting everybody's beliefs, not just those of the majority.
 
Re: Leftist {not liberal, not dem} Intolerance - Where the Left failed in Kindergarten.

Todd said:

The ACLU also tried recently to stop the Commonwealth of Virginia from implementing its minute of silence policy for public-school students. The pupils can use the time for quiet reflection, meditation, or — and here's the supposed rub — silent prayer. The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit upheld the state law. A few weeks ago, the U.S. Supreme Court refused to intervene. Chief Justice William Rehnquist, speaking for the Court, wrote, in part, that "There is no allegation that Virginia schoolteachers have used the minute of silence, or any other occasion, to lead students in collective prayer." God forbid if they had.


I am gonna stick just to this, since i have experience with it. I went to HS in VA so I have been through this and know more about then you ever would Todd.

Peer pressure. Yeah peer pressure is a very powerful thing in HS. You are sitting in class and they call up the stupid moment of silience and in our partuicular school you had to stand up or go outside you could not sit down. So you all stand up and you see some people bowing there heads and praying and such. Now before the people that are praying bow their heads they always look around and see who else is. When they are done they look around and see who did not. They always try and find out who did not pray and then usually give them some shit. Normaly it is not much just like evil looks and stuff, but sometimes it is verbal.

Yeah that does not sound much to adults, but to most teenager public acceptance means a lot. People get shunned for not praying belive me. Then you have the problem about how you pray. In my house and my church we for the most part always pray out loud and normaly do it sitting or kneeling. I mean I rarely ever pray now because i have gotten away from my faith and am more of a diest. However when I do pray it is still sitting down or kneeling and sometimes out loud. I mean thats just the way we are taught. You of course can't pray out loud during a moment of silence and can you imagine the stares you would get for kneeling and praying.

How about a Muslim they pray 5 times a day. The moment of silence at every school is not during one of the normal times they pray. It is after their morning prayer and before their first lunch time prayer. Ok lets say that they decide to put off their prayer till school or that the school has the moment of silence at the right time. Can't you just see all the problems that it would cause for them to pray. You would probably be the only one on the floor kneeling and folded over in the traditonal form of Muslim prayer. Think that would make somone feel out of place? Make them feel alone and ostricised? I know it would because I know people that went through that experience. They eventually decided not to pray because they felt that way.

Then they of course felt bad becaues many other people were praying and they would like to pray, but they can't pray the way the religion teaches them.

There should not be any moment of silence in schools. Everyone always says that it is not a prayer moment so it is ok. Bullshit everyone knows you are supposed to pray and if you don't you are an outsider. It is crap and is forcing kids to do things they don't want to do. HS is hard enough without more of shit like this going on.
 
Todd said:
[
I did not say or aver that north america is a christian nation. The key word in my statement is supposidly a christian nation. That is what the other nations say of us and what the non-christian say of north america. Ask any christian who actually believes in his faith and you will have a whole nother picture painted before you. One of a very unchristian nation which is closer but not entirely acurate either. Its more from what i have seen in my limited time limited travels of a 4 christians to every 6 non-christians a far cry from a christian nation.

the only ligit reason it gets labels as christian is cause of the Notoriaty of the Catholic Church and the lack of anything to really call a ralling point to call everyone else under.

Christian nation by name only not by deed/action or attitude.

[ [/B]

You totally missed his point as I see it Todd. North America is not a country. It is a continent made up of many countries. The three largest being Canada, USA and Mexico. The other countries are the ones that make up the central American region. These being Panama, Costa Rica, Honduras, El Salvador, Nicuargua, Guatemela and so on and so forth.
 
ok, Todd, you got me in here.......


but I still missed the point......

Oh yeah, I got it. The whole problem is because the Kindergarten teachers didn't TEACH the kids to be tolerant of different views and religions in Kindergarten when they were explaining what the hell the moment of silence is for.


BUT that's NOT my job. That's the responsibility of the parents...

And oh damn, I forgot, the parents don't want ANY responsibility for their children.....


I'll just go back to my corner now.....
 
Yeah...

morninggirl5 said:
That statement is screaming Kindergartner.
It was juvenile, but Todd's endless looping into left-right crap at every turn is so tedious. Sorry, Todd.
 
Yeah...

morninggirl5 said:
That statement is screaming Kindergartner.
It was juvenile, but Todd's endless looping into left-right crap at every turn is so tedious. Sorry, Todd.

I never was in kindergarten, actually.
 
Todd, I am so amazed that for once you have actually attempted, albeit lamely, to defend the point of view you purloined elsewhere that I feel I should respond.

First of all, do you know what a Socialist is? If you did, you wouldn't suggest that Rev. Bellamy was an ideological compadre of Messrs. Falwell, Swaggart and Phelps.

The innate absurdity I referred to was that pointed out by Azwed, that "north america" is not a nation. More importantly, you quite plainly said "yes america, north america is supposidly a "christian" nation," so how you can baldfacedly deny it is beyond me. I honestly can't follow the rest of your argument there, but you appear to be denying that Christians are a majority. I don't know if that's true, although I suspect it isn't, but it is unresponsive to what I said, which was that people who believe in God make up the majority. Deny that...

You then argue that I should be content to hum or play tiddlywinks during the Pledge if I don't want to acknowledge a God in which I don't believe. Perhaps if you actually lived in the U.S., Todd, and got your knowledge about its history and government somewhere besides reactionary websites, you might not make quite this foolish a suggestion.

The practices and ceremonies of citizenship, or even residence, in the United States are supposed to be the one thing we all have in common. We may be different colors, speak different languages and worship in different traditions, but we're all Americans and the job of being an American citizen shouldn't be diverted by attaching it to the religious beliefs of one group of us.

I also encourage you to read Azwed's post on the moment of silence issue because he(?) explains that issue thoroughly and well.

Todd, you keep saying that you post the dreck you do because you want to prompt discussion. Whereas I think, frankly, that you're full of shit in that regard, maybe you should consider reading some of the discussion and trying to learn from it. If you're going to continue to offer misguided opinions on the practices of a country in which you don't even live, at least make an attempt to know what you're talking about.
 
Its a He and thanks. So many people forget what it is like to be in HS. I mean I have been out for about 4 years now, but I still remember. Probably because I was one of the more outcast type people.

Doh I just realized it does not say i am a guy in my profile. Hmhhh I swear I put that in there. I guess I will go fix that now.
 
Last edited:
Originally posted by Todd
yes america, north america is supposidly a "christian" nation but nothing in "under god" sasys what god just a god.
Since North America is comprised of Canada and the USA, I'm wondering how you came to this supposed conclusion. The founders of the United States went to explicit measures to create the Federal government as a secular government providing both freedom of religion and freedom from religion.

While a majority of US citizens are probably of one or another Christian denomination, that makes the US composed of a chiefly Christian populace, not a Christian nation.
 
Oh todd... i keep thinking i should cut you some slack because you're so damned young, but then you go off on these bizarre little tangents, and i just want to smack you!

First of all, PLEASE explain to me how it is possible to be 'too tolerant'! are you suggesting that there are certain groups that don't deserve our tolerance? I seriously doubt todd that you would find the fact that many children are not allowed to wear jewelry depicting symbols of their religion (jews and witches specifically) because they are considered 'inflammatory' as disturbing as you do the removal of 'god bless america' from a public school.


My children will attend public school, and while I don't have any particular aversion to them saying the pledge of allegiance, i DO have an aversion to any sort of 'organized' prayer within those schools (and yes, that's what i believe a moment of silence would become). no child should feel pressured to pray, or worse, pretend to pray. it's absurd, and it's sad. if a child in school feels the need to converse with their god, they don't need a mandatory moment of silence to do it.

get off that damned high horse you're on todd and join the masses. christians are not nearly as persecuted as you would have everyone believe, and we americans aren't nearly as ignorant as you profess.
 
If kids want to pray all together in school then thats fine I have nothing wrong with it, if they want to get together voluntaryly. Just go out to the flag pole or the court yard or whatever and set a time to meet.

If you want to get a little group together to say a short prayer before school that is cool. It might even be good for the school to let them provide a room to do it in. I am sure they could find an unused classroom to use before school starts. That would probably be good when it was very cold outside.

There should not however be any kind of particular time set apart during school hours. Not for a moment of silence or prayer or any other sort of thing but school.
 
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